I think Veganism is just silly though. To completely disregard animal husbandry, forgo chickens laying eggs, cows making milk, all the things animals produce just seems like purposefully hindering ourselves when we still haven’t figured out how to feed everyone.
Start by replacing meat so we don’t needlessly slaughter animals, sure, got me there, but I can’t understand veganism as a practical solution to anything. It’ll help climate change, sure, but it won’t significantly impact it enough to solve it and we have better alternatives to doing that.
Veganism can not only help with climate change, but also total land use, species extinction, deforestation, ocean eutrophication, antibiotic resistant bacteria, zoonotic diseases and soil erosion. Also, keep in mind that over 90% of worldwide livestock and 99% in the US are factory farmed. And we still needlessly slaughter egg-laying chickens and dairy cows once they’ve been overworked to the point of no longer being profitable enough to keep alive.
I get your perspective on it and if we had 1:1 alternatives for all these products like we’ve done with Beyond meat or Impossible burger I’d probably be more willing to consider Veganism, but I also think that chicken and cows who can no longer produce should be turned into food. I get that the idea of ending a life short isn’t morally appealing especially when I just pointed to plant based replacements but in the interest of cheaper and more available food I think it would be more harmful to us (in spite of the issues you listed) than it would be beneficial for the climate.
Veganism can work I just don’t think we have any of the development into replacements that we need to commit to that. Butter, yogurt, dairy as a whole is such a massive industry. Eggs for cakes, butter for baked goods, we’d need to replace all of it and figure out how to keep the things we’ve normalized without destabilizing it all.
Those alternatives exist already. Instead of eggs, you can bake with apple sauce, banana, chia, flax or non dairy yogurt and get great results. Oil and margarine serve great in place of butter. You can make cheese sauce from nuts/cashews and nutritional yeast. Also, depending on where you live, there’s a wealth of commercially produced dairy and egg alternatives.
Just this past week I made amazing blueberry lemon muffins with coconut yoghurt and lemon bars with corn starch in place of eggs.
In terms of price, vegan options can be substantially cheaper than animal products, and if we (in the US anyway) started subsiding vegetables instead of meat and dairy, they could be even cheaper.
I’m curious about your stance. You mentioned it’s needless to kill animals for meat, but you also think we should use animals for milk and eggs and then kill them after they’ve become too exhausted to keep producing?
The morality of raising animals to slaughter them in their prime for meat seems bankrupt at best and repugnant to me personally. An animal that has lived it’s life, produced products for us naturally, and has done so humanely I see no problems with whatsoever. If a bird wants to use the hair I cut off my head for their nest, I wouldn’t consider them morally wrong for using what I produce to benefit themselves.
Animals who get too old and are past their prime will stop producing and are near their natural death. They’ve lived their lives, hopefully in humane conditions, but are on the way out. Using them for meat at this point, to me, feels like giving them one final purpose rather than just allowing them to become fertilizer.
I get that doesn’t sound morally pure and it probably isn’t, but I would rather old animals be turned into food than allow humans to go hungry out of pretentious moral aspirations. If we can afford to be moral we should be but if we can’t, we can’t. I won’t lose sleep knowing a family gets to eat because we didn’t allow that animal to either away naturally.
As far as replacements go, that’s genuinely fantastic. I hope we scale that up and don’t let meat farmers lobby to destroy it. Like I said if we can replace products to the degree we don’t suffer by insisting on morality, we should. Full stop.
I think we have fundamentally different outlooks on animal agriculture. It seems like your position is based on the idea that animals used for milk and eggs are treated well, live long natural lives and are killed at the end of their lives when they would have died naturally.
An animal that has lived it’s life,
Animals used for milk and egg production live a small percentage of their potential lifespan. The effects on dairy cows of repeatedly being impregnated, giving birth, producing enormous quantities of milk, and going through the cycle again takes a harsh toll on their bodies. It’s normal for a dairy cow to only endure 4 or 5 cycles of this before they literally cannot physically continue, at which point they’re no longer profitable and are sold for slaughter. Similarly for egg-laying hens, the stress and mineral demand of ovulating multiple times a day means that they rarely live past two years. For the males of these breeds, it’s even worse. Male chickens of the egg-laying breeds are mostly useless to the industry, so they are killed immediately after hatching, usually by way of an industrial macerator or gas chamber. Male calves might live to 8 months to be slaughtered for veal, but if there’s no market for veal they are frequently killed immediately after birth.
produced products for us naturally
Modern egg laying chickens and dairy cows are man-made breeds far removed from their natural wild counterparts. Hens trace their lineage to red jungle fowls, who naturally ovulate at a similar rate to humans, about once a month. Selective breeding has increased this amount to once a day, sometimes even more. The extreme pressure on their reproductive system frequently causes health issues like egg yolk peritonitis, cloacal prolapse, and osteoporosis. Similarly with modern dairy cows, bovine mastitis, udder sores and infections are common due to our selective breeding to maximize milk yields. Even otherwise healthy animals face grueling lives because they’re part of a species that was engineered for one purpose: profit.
has done so humanely
Modern animal agriculture is overwhelmingly inhumane, which is why livestock animals are almost always excluded from animal abuse legislation. Ignoring the above points about how they’ve been selectively bred and are worked to exhaustion, investigations into egg and dairy farms have found absolutely shocking treatment. If you have the stomach for it, they’re worth watching to understand the scope of animal abuse that is commonplace in our society.
“Veganism”
Let’s reign that in just a bit to Vegetarian for now. Incremental steps.
You can totally incrementally step towards veganism. That doesn’t mean that veganism isn’t the correct end goal.
I think Veganism is just silly though. To completely disregard animal husbandry, forgo chickens laying eggs, cows making milk, all the things animals produce just seems like purposefully hindering ourselves when we still haven’t figured out how to feed everyone.
Start by replacing meat so we don’t needlessly slaughter animals, sure, got me there, but I can’t understand veganism as a practical solution to anything. It’ll help climate change, sure, but it won’t significantly impact it enough to solve it and we have better alternatives to doing that.
Veganism can not only help with climate change, but also total land use, species extinction, deforestation, ocean eutrophication, antibiotic resistant bacteria, zoonotic diseases and soil erosion. Also, keep in mind that over 90% of worldwide livestock and 99% in the US are factory farmed. And we still needlessly slaughter egg-laying chickens and dairy cows once they’ve been overworked to the point of no longer being profitable enough to keep alive.
I get your perspective on it and if we had 1:1 alternatives for all these products like we’ve done with Beyond meat or Impossible burger I’d probably be more willing to consider Veganism, but I also think that chicken and cows who can no longer produce should be turned into food. I get that the idea of ending a life short isn’t morally appealing especially when I just pointed to plant based replacements but in the interest of cheaper and more available food I think it would be more harmful to us (in spite of the issues you listed) than it would be beneficial for the climate.
Veganism can work I just don’t think we have any of the development into replacements that we need to commit to that. Butter, yogurt, dairy as a whole is such a massive industry. Eggs for cakes, butter for baked goods, we’d need to replace all of it and figure out how to keep the things we’ve normalized without destabilizing it all.
Those alternatives exist already. Instead of eggs, you can bake with apple sauce, banana, chia, flax or non dairy yogurt and get great results. Oil and margarine serve great in place of butter. You can make cheese sauce from nuts/cashews and nutritional yeast. Also, depending on where you live, there’s a wealth of commercially produced dairy and egg alternatives.
Just this past week I made amazing blueberry lemon muffins with coconut yoghurt and lemon bars with corn starch in place of eggs.
In terms of price, vegan options can be substantially cheaper than animal products, and if we (in the US anyway) started subsiding vegetables instead of meat and dairy, they could be even cheaper.
I’m curious about your stance. You mentioned it’s needless to kill animals for meat, but you also think we should use animals for milk and eggs and then kill them after they’ve become too exhausted to keep producing?
The morality of raising animals to slaughter them in their prime for meat seems bankrupt at best and repugnant to me personally. An animal that has lived it’s life, produced products for us naturally, and has done so humanely I see no problems with whatsoever. If a bird wants to use the hair I cut off my head for their nest, I wouldn’t consider them morally wrong for using what I produce to benefit themselves.
Animals who get too old and are past their prime will stop producing and are near their natural death. They’ve lived their lives, hopefully in humane conditions, but are on the way out. Using them for meat at this point, to me, feels like giving them one final purpose rather than just allowing them to become fertilizer.
I get that doesn’t sound morally pure and it probably isn’t, but I would rather old animals be turned into food than allow humans to go hungry out of pretentious moral aspirations. If we can afford to be moral we should be but if we can’t, we can’t. I won’t lose sleep knowing a family gets to eat because we didn’t allow that animal to either away naturally.
As far as replacements go, that’s genuinely fantastic. I hope we scale that up and don’t let meat farmers lobby to destroy it. Like I said if we can replace products to the degree we don’t suffer by insisting on morality, we should. Full stop.
I think we have fundamentally different outlooks on animal agriculture. It seems like your position is based on the idea that animals used for milk and eggs are treated well, live long natural lives and are killed at the end of their lives when they would have died naturally.
Animals used for milk and egg production live a small percentage of their potential lifespan. The effects on dairy cows of repeatedly being impregnated, giving birth, producing enormous quantities of milk, and going through the cycle again takes a harsh toll on their bodies. It’s normal for a dairy cow to only endure 4 or 5 cycles of this before they literally cannot physically continue, at which point they’re no longer profitable and are sold for slaughter. Similarly for egg-laying hens, the stress and mineral demand of ovulating multiple times a day means that they rarely live past two years. For the males of these breeds, it’s even worse. Male chickens of the egg-laying breeds are mostly useless to the industry, so they are killed immediately after hatching, usually by way of an industrial macerator or gas chamber. Male calves might live to 8 months to be slaughtered for veal, but if there’s no market for veal they are frequently killed immediately after birth.
Modern egg laying chickens and dairy cows are man-made breeds far removed from their natural wild counterparts. Hens trace their lineage to red jungle fowls, who naturally ovulate at a similar rate to humans, about once a month. Selective breeding has increased this amount to once a day, sometimes even more. The extreme pressure on their reproductive system frequently causes health issues like egg yolk peritonitis, cloacal prolapse, and osteoporosis. Similarly with modern dairy cows, bovine mastitis, udder sores and infections are common due to our selective breeding to maximize milk yields. Even otherwise healthy animals face grueling lives because they’re part of a species that was engineered for one purpose: profit.
Modern animal agriculture is overwhelmingly inhumane, which is why livestock animals are almost always excluded from animal abuse legislation. Ignoring the above points about how they’ve been selectively bred and are worked to exhaustion, investigations into egg and dairy farms have found absolutely shocking treatment. If you have the stomach for it, they’re worth watching to understand the scope of animal abuse that is commonplace in our society.
Plus, they forgot nuclear. Oh, and thoughts and prayers
The difference is nuclear is a good solution.
These are all good solutions, for very different problems, admittedly…
Haven’t met the guy that had his problems solved by thoughts and prayers but I guess it’s possible.
That’s where I was being sarcastic, silly.
Obviously nuclear is a good solution and t&p is meaningless
Oh good, sarcasm on the internet is about as easy to detect as carbon monoxide. I need a meter to send off alarms sometimes.