• Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In@lemmy.world
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    2 months ago

    Why are online casinos bad?

    How can players be sure they are honest?

    I must protect them from themselves.

    People should be protected from scammers with fake (always lose) casinos.

    • sudneo@lemm.ee
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      2 months ago

      How can players be sure they are honest?

      At the bottom of each gambling sites usually there are the banners for the license(s) the company holds. Complying with licenses (e.g., Maltese) ensures that the due paperwork (i.e., proving that Casino games are functioning according to their certification) is taken care of. So yes, national gambling authorities usually are the ones who protect people from scammers.

      • Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In@lemmy.world
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        2 months ago

        “functioning according to their certification” doesn’t prove to me that they aren’t shaving the odds or injecting sneaky code into the process. I have to trust in the technical ability of the regulators.

        Also, I could write “regulated by the Maltese” on the bottom of any website, it doesn’t make it true.

        • sudneo@lemm.ee
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          2 months ago

          They can’t add sneaky code to the process (without getting caught). For sensitive game code every single change needs to be tracked and reviewed by the authority. You get audited at least once a year, and then all the changes are reviewed. Authorities outsource the job for the technical reviews to specialized companies.

          Also, what’s the point? The games already provide a margin to the host, why risking to go out of business for such an irrelevant gain (a few more %)? Add to this that usually casino games writers do just that, write games and sell those to N casinos. So the incentive for the casino games writers are even smaller.

          Finally, yes you can write “license X”, but you can cross-check that information from the regulator itself, you don’t need to trust just the line on the site. The point is you as a customer can choose a trustworthy site, ideally one who is licensed in countries where regulations are quite tight (in Europe I would say Denmark), before putting your money somewhere.

          At some point you need to trust “someone”, that’s how the whole world works. The gambling authorities are no different than the authorities that enforce the safety certifications for electrict equipment, or cars, or whatever.

          If your concern is that you would lose money on casino games because the site rigged it, it’s a relatively silly concern. You will lose because the casino games are designed to make you lose in the long term, on average.

          • Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In@lemmy.world
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            2 months ago

            They can’t add sneaky code to the process (without getting caught).

            That means that people have to check

            For sensitive game code every single change needs to be tracked and reviewed by the authority. You get audited at least once a year, and then all the changes are reviewed. Authorities outsource the job for the technical reviews to specialized companies.

            Or just ignore that and publish whatever you like.

            why risking to go out of business for such an irrelevant gain

            Why spend money to meet regulations?

            Finally, yes you can write “license X”, but you can cross-check that information from the regulator itself, you don’t need to trust just the line on the site.

            How many users actually do this? A very low percentage.

            point is you as a customer can choose a trustworthy site,

            The point is that many don’t.

            If your concern is that you would lose money on casino games because the site rigged it, it’s a relatively silly concern.

            Not really. It’s one of the reasons why online casinos can be bad.

            The question was what is “wrong with online casinos”. So I gave an example. Others include money laundering, exploitation of addiction, exploitation of stupidity, waste of resources, tax evasion etc .

            • sudneo@lemm.ee
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              2 months ago

              Have you ever made a single transaction online paying with your credit or debit card? How do you know the site didn’t steal or misuse your information?

              The answer is that storing, transmitting or processing card data requires you to be PCI-DSS compliant, which is a very strict standard. If you get caught violating that you are out of business and fined in the abyss, which is a much bigger risk than stealing john doe’s pennies.

              Sorry but from what you are saying it seems you simply don’t understand how compliance works.

              That means that people have to check

              And that is why you have at least annual audits (for each license, plus AML, plus other stuff), and why you need to present the whole chain of changes that happened to sensitive code.

              Why spend money to meet regulations?

              Because if you get caught not doing that you lose access to whole markets at once and get fined. There is no economic incentive as complying doesn’t cost nearly as much. Specifically, I told you that casino game makers are generally not casinos, they are software houses. So they can’t care less about rigging the games, their revenue comes from companies paying for using their games. Casinos also don’t care of rigging games because games are designed to leave them a certain margin anyway, so why doing it?

              The point is that many don’t.

              And that’s why national regulations are generally a safe umbrella. If you see a website (through advertisements) that means that website is allowed locally and already met the national regulations.

              If you are in a non regulated country then you will need to do a tiny bit of research. You are putting money on a site, after all (you should do the same for everything you do online).

              The question was what is “wrong with online casinos”. So I gave an example. Others include money laundering, exploitation of addiction, exploitation of stupidity, waste of resources, tax evasion etc

              Yes, you gave examples based on your own speculations. It’s clear you have no idea how the industry works. Money laundering is something international law covers and is extremely tightly controlled, tax evasion is also completely insane for online businesses, because every transaction has a trail and there are tight regulations about what you need to report for every country where you operate. Exploitation of stupidity, sure. Some also exploit addiction, regulations exist for that too, and for some businesses addicts are terrible customers.

              Question: what exactly is your experience with the gambling business?

              Because to me it seems you are making stuff up or basing your statements on movies about gambling and oeganised crime, while the reality is much simpler: companies get money simply by having active users on their sites. Quantity is the name of the game.

              • Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In@lemmy.world
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                2 months ago

                How do you know the site didn’t steal or misuse your information?

                Exactly. Scam websites can be casinos or shops or anything.

                You are vehemently defending the “legitimate” casino industry whereas I am saying it’s easy to create scam casinos.

                Yes, you gave examples based on your own speculations. It’s clear you have no idea how the industry works.

                I know well how it works.

                Money laundering is something international law covers and is extremely tightly controlled, tax evasion is also completely insane for online businesses, because every transaction has a trail and there are tight regulations about what you need to report for every country where you operate.

                Casinos, on and offline, are excellent ways to launder. The amount of regulations trying to mitigate this risk proves my point.

                Exploitation of stupidity, sure.

                Glad we agree here.

                Some also exploit addiction, regulations exist for that too, and for some businesses addicts are terrible customers.

                Not for casinos. Gambling addiction is a casino’s main business. Why are there no windows in Vegas?

                Question: what exactly is your experience with the gambling business?

                Betfair, betfred, bet356, Ladbrokes etc.

                Exchanges for sports and real life events I have little problem with.

                I only have probems with sites that scam people with flashing lights and random number generators.

                Quantity is the name of the game.

                Yes. Online you can scam many more people with fake roulette tables.

                • sudneo@lemm.ee
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                  2 months ago

                  Exactly. Scam websites can be casinos or shops or anything.

                  Ok, you understand that this is a completely different set of businesses compared to established casino business, right?

                  Talking about scam website to infer things about the “real” counterparts doesn’t make much sense. Yes, there is scam-everything. Doesn’t mean “shops are scam”, because there are shops which scam people. So when I talk about online casinos, I refer to the legitimate businesses that are gambling businesses, not scam organizations that happen to use gambling as their cover.

                  In any case, licenses are a very effective way to protect yourself from scammers.

                  Casinos, on and offline, are excellent ways to launder. The amount of regulations trying to mitigate this risk proves my point.

                  As all systems that allow to move money, they are excellent vectors, but doesn’t mean they are excellent ways to launder money. Regulations prevent money laundering (or strongly mitigating), which makes them less and less viable for laundering. I specifically talk about online casinos, since cash is not an option.

                  Not for casinos. Gambling addiction is a casino’s main business. Why are there no windows in Vegas?

                  Online and physical casinos are different and they comply with different regulations. In online casinos for example it might be mandatory to limit session duration, show popups every X minutes to inform about losses and duration of the session etc., depending on licenses. These are just responsible gaming measures enforced by licenses (in this case the Maltese, which is a very common one), which do not apply to physical casinos.

                  Yes. Online you can scam many more people with fake roulette tables.

                  So, this is the crux of the problem: your definition of scamming seems to be variable. There are only two options:

                  • The casino game works according to specifics
                  • The casino game is rigged, meaning it provides better odds to the host compared to its specifics

                  Both of them provide revenue for the host, with the second being marginally higher (you can’t have 80% margin, people won’t play). The second though has the problem that it won’t pass certification, so the only way to serve it is on unlicensed sites. Being unlicensed makes it impossible to access whole markets. So, why companies should go for the second and not the first, when even the first is providing money and a bigger pool of players?

                  To support your claim, maybe you can list a bunch of articles about casinos getting caught with rigged games that were licensed? I did a quick search and nothing popped up immediately (although they might exist, and it’s a good thing they got caught, which shows controls work).

                  Betfair, betfred, bet356, Ladbrokes etc.

                  As a user? Because that doesn’t tell much. Anyway, bet365 has a casino, do you trust it?

                  • Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In@lemmy.world
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                    2 months ago

                    Ok, you understand that this is a completely different set of businesses compared to established casino business, right?

                    From the user perspective they are the same. A scam casino is much easier to create than a scam Nike shop.

                    licenses are a very effective way to protect yourself from scammers

                    Not if the licence is fake.

                    it might be mandatory to limit session duration, show popups every X minutes to inform about losses and duration of the session etc

                    “Might be mandatory” means that it might not be, and for certain casino operators don’t want it.

                    your definition of scamming seems to be variable.

                    Yes. There is the objective “designed to steal” scamming and my subjective dislike of betting against a dressed up random number generator.

                    bet365 has a casino, do you trust it?

                    No. But that is my subjective dislike.

                    maybe you can list a bunch of articles about casinos getting caught with rigged games

                    Lots of anecdotes along the lines of

                    “online slots usually let you go up a bit and are relatively generous for the first 20-30 minutes of play, then the odds drop drastically when the algorithms realize you’re hooked/chasing the dragon”

                    https://www.smithfieldtimes.com/2024/01/14/6-common-casino-scams-to-avoid-online/

                    https://morganfinancialrecovery.com/scams/online-casino-scams/

                    https://www.legitgamblingsites.com/blog/online-casino-scams-be-aware-of/

                    “What I mean by this is my friend is a new bettor, we sit side by side watching the same games at the same time, and the odds are much worse for me. It will show -100000 on my screen and shows -8000 on my friends screen”

                    All betting sites have blacklists of customers taking advantage of arbitrage between sites.


                    Here are some common online betting scams copied from quora.

                    Fake Betting Sites: Scammers create fake betting websites that appear legitimate but are designed to steal your personal and financial information. Always ensure you’re using reputable and licensed betting sites.

                    Phishing: Scammers send fraudulent emails or messages claiming to be from legitimate betting sites, asking for your login details, password, or payment information. Never share sensitive information through email or messages.

                    Too Good to Be True Offers: Scammers may promise guaranteed wins or insider information for a fee. They might also offer bonuses that seem too good to be true. These offers are often designed to take your money without delivering results.

                    Tipster Scams: Some scammers pose as expert tipsters or handicappers, offering betting tips or predictions for a fee. They may manipulate their records to show past success, but their actual tips might not yield positive results.

                    Unregulated Casinos: Betting on unregulated or unlicensed casinos can put your money and personal information at risk. Always choose licensed and regulated casinos and sportsbooks.

                    Rigged Games: In some cases, illegitimate gambling sites may manipulate game outcomes to ensure players lose. Stick to reputable sites that use random number generators and undergo regular audits.

                    Payment Scams: Scammers may ask for upfront payment to access their “winning system” or betting tips. Legitimate services do not require upfront payments for access to tips.

                    Match-Fixing Scams: Some scammers claim to have inside information about match-fixing or rigged games and offer to sell this information. This is often a ploy to steal your money.

                    Identity Theft: Scammers might impersonate betting sites to collect personal information for identity theft. Always ensure you’re on a secure and legitimate site.

                    Unfair Terms and Conditions: Some betting sites have complex or unfair terms and conditions that make it difficult to withdraw winnings or bonuses. Always read the terms before betting.

    • qwerty
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      2 months ago

      There are ways to cryptographically verify bet integrity, but that’s not important. The point I was trying to make is that people should have the right to make their own decisions, even if you disagree with them, even if they’re objectively wrong.

      • Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In@lemmy.world
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        2 months ago

        If you are objecting about one person’s morals being forced on another then I totally agree.

        Your delivery of that argument needs work because it comes across as wanting to defend scammers.

            • ji17br@lemmy.ml
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              2 months ago

              Yes. He’s asking a question? Why is an online casino bad?

              If the casino follows all rules and regulations, then that is not bad.

              If talking about sites that steal your money and don’t pay out when you “win”, then yes, that is bad, and a scam. But that’s not an online casino…that’s a scam. And also incredibly rare.

              An online casino can make a shit ton of money by just following the rules. Why would they need to break the rules?