It is scientific fact; at least every major medical organization in the US is in total agreement about what you refer to as âgender ideology,â and what we call the existence of trans people.
âJust asking questionsâ about it is as disingenuous and false as âjust asking questionsâ about evolution. If you truly believe trans people exist and deserve to be respected you wouldnât feel the need to ask these questions.
But yes, the founder chose anti-trans concerns above trans concerns. LGBT people will leave and the platform will become a conservative circlejerk. You have that part right at least.
If you truly believe trans people exist and deserve to be respected you wouldnât feel the need to ask these questions.
I donât agree. I have A LOT of questions about gender identity to which I canât hypothesize answers because as a cis/het person I have no idea what it means and what it feels like being transgender, and I grew up in a time and a place where nobody ever talked about gender identity. The only way I can educate myself is by asking questions. Now I know a lot of people in the LGBTQ community are kinda fed up answering this kind of questions, and with good reason (cf. the âjust asking questionsâ posture of anti-trans people). But some of us are being honest at just asking questions.
Those arenât the kinds of questions the OP was talking about; their dogwhistle about âtrans/gender ideology isnât scientific factâ shows that they are indeed the kind of anti-trans person who is âjust asking questionsâ to harass trans people.
If you have legitimate questions there are many excellent resources on the Internet and even in Lemmy itself where LGBTQ people will be happy to chat with you, if you approach them in a respectful manner :)
Gender ideology is not scientific fact. Gender as it is now know has literally no basis in science. Sex is biological reality. Gender is now a âfeelingâ.
Thatâs disingenuous and your own link doesnât support what you are saying. The link demonstrates that gender to refer to self-identity is both recent and an artificial distinction. The science behind transgenderism is far from settled as much as people would like it to be. We donât even know what causes it.
Oh no⊠it does say exactly that and the science is indeed settled. Thereâs no âartificial distinction;â science says gender and sex are indeed different. Unless of course you can link a reputable scientific organization that disagrees with that overwhelming consensus?
We donât know what causes most cancers either. That doesnât mean they canât be studied scientifically.
I didnât say it shouldnât be scientifically studied. It definitely should be, especially the extremely high rates of comorbid mental illnesses in trans/non-binary people.
The article you linked states that gender is now commonly considered a social construct rather than tied to your biological sex. They are making the distinction so that there is no confusion when reading their papers.
The science is not settled, they are conceding that the common use of the term now has a different meaning than it did in the past.
The science is indeed settled. Asserting once again itâs not or that trans/nb people are mentally ill is both scientifically inaccurate and morally wrong. Unless, of course, you have literally any source claiming otherwise?
Your own link say says that gender is a social construct now. Theyâre saying that there is literally no science involved, there is no basis in scientific fact there.
Thatâs not âscientific factâ. For something to be scientific fact it has to have scientific facts supporting it.
From that article:
In the study of human subjects, the term gender should be used to refer to a personâs self-representation as male or female, or how that person is responded to by social institutions on the basis of the individualâs gender presentation.
âself representationâ is how you feel. Itâs a feeling. Thatâs not scientific fact. Going âwe acknowledge that society now treats gender as a new thing separate to sexâ isnât the same as it being a scientifically proven fact.
Iâm really not seeing the logic here, so called âfeelingsâ are scientific facts and we do studies on them all the time. Is hunger not a feeling? Same thing with self-representation. Those arenât nebulous concepts. Those are well-established scientific facts. Gender is an important part of self-representation and from all indications, one people have very little control over.
Gender is an important part of self-representation and from all indications, one people have very little control over.
So why are there people changing their âgender identityâ multiple times a day?
so called âfeelingsâ are scientific facts and we do studies on them all the time
Show me a scientific study that has found any existence whatsoever of âgender identityâ through science. The very article linked here says itâs a social construct. Social constructs are not âscientific factsâ.
Youâve really jumped deep into things by assuming what the person youâre responding to means isnât scientific fact is the actual existence of trans people. They could, but they were woefully vague.
Most people Iâve interacted with who have misgivings are more focused on things like the insistence that there are no differences between afab and amab bodies, and therefore trans women athletes should be allowed to compete against afab athletes.
Thatâs a currently âunallowed to challengeâ topic that pretty much immediately gets you labelled transphobic, but hereâs the rub: female athletes doping with testosterone to achieve higher muscle mass is something that is banned from sports competitions, so why does it matter whether it was artificially obtained via pill or naturally by the fact that they had years of body and muscle development as male before transistioning?
Thereâs no good solution to this problem, but the fact that anyone who brings it up gets labelled as transphobic is ridiculous. Itâs not inherently denying trans people anything to discuss it (that has more to do with the person discussing it than the topic itself). For me itâs an attempt to ensure that all female athletes afab trans or other are on an even playing field, ideally so people have less excuse to easily dismiss trans athlete achievements.
The current gender/trans ideology isnât just scientific fact that has to be followed and believed.
I know no person interested in trans liberation that also talks about âgender/trans ideology.â
I find sports misgivings a red herring with regards to trans liberation. To me, it feels like asking someone to be less racist, and hearing them respond âwell what about Black people in sports? What about white athletesâ feelings? How do we determine if an athlete is white enough to compete against other whites?â The entire notion is wrong-headed to begin with. Yes, if we include trans people in sports, sometimes they might win. Whatâs so bad about trans people winning at sports?
In any case, clearly the person I was responding to was not talking about this.
Here is the thing when it comes to sports, there are usually two main divisions in most sports, the best of the best league, and the women league. In most sports there is technically no rule against women playing in the best of the best leagues, but they are just at so much of a disadvantage it is almost unheard of for them to be able to compete at that level. The only reason that women only sports exist is to allow people with that biological disadvantage to compete professionally against others with the same disadvantage. Itâs a league thatâs sole purpose is to allow women to be competitive against other women because the men are just so much better.
It might sound like Iâm bashing womenâs sports, but Iâm not. Iâm glad women have an avenue to compete at pro levels, because without women only sports they would not.
I have no problem with anybody trying to compete in the best of the best league, men, women, trans, black, white, etc. But when it comes to leagues specifically limited to give those in the league a fair competition, we shouldnât be opening that up to those who donât have the disadvantage that defines the league. This applies to women leagues, the special Olympics, and other limited leagues.
I know this, I just donât think it matters. Our a priori assumption must be trans people should be included everywhere as much as possible, just like Black people or Jewish people. Fairness will adjust to our expectations, so everything will feel fine in the end, just as it did when we allowed other minorities to compete in leagues they were formerly barred from.
How can it not matter? You have a sport built around the idea of fair competition to a genetic physical weakness, and you think we should just throw that all away? Iâm not sure why you are bringing race and nationality into this discussion, thatâs never been a race based disadvantage that we decided we needed to design sports around.
Our a priori assumption must be trans people should be included everywhere as much as possible,
I agree, but I think sports falls under ânot possibleâ because they donât meet the requirements for the womenâs league. I have no problem with a trans league, or they are more than welcome to compete in the best of the best league. I donât think they should be competing in womenâs sports, itâs unfair to all biological women athletes who compete against other biological women athletes.
And if you want to compare it to race, where the idea of a race segregated sport would be super controversial, letâs just get rid of womenâs sports all together. Women are equal to men, right? They can do anything a man can do, right? What are we pretending women arenât equal by putting them in their own sports leagues? Letâs just get rid of all womenâs sports, let them compete directly with the men, and may the best win.
Iâm fine sorting people by weight classes or hormone levels. But gender is not a useful way to do that and hasnât been for years. The Olympics, for example, tests your hormone levels and not what your natal sex was or what your genitals look like.
But ultimately I just donât think sports matters more than peoplesâ rights. So if we have to abolish gendered sports, especially below the ultra-professional level, Iâm fine with that.
And yes, people did indeed claim certain races had advantages in sports and pointed to science about muscle density to support their theories. They would consider themselves well-justified by Black people dominating certain sports. It is the same with trans athletes.
But gender is not a useful way to do that and hasnât been for years.
So you are for getting rid of womenâs sports, special Olympics, and everything in that realm and just letting everyone compete as people of the human race?
But ultimately I just donât think sports matters more than peoplesâ rights.
What rights? There is no right to compete in stuff you are not eligible for.
So if we have to abolish gendered sports, especially below the ultra-professional level, Iâm fine with that.
So you are fine with women essentially never being competitive in sports? Personally I think itâs great they have their own league, because otherwise there wouldnât really be women in sports.
And yes, people did indeed claim certain races had advantages in sports and pointed to science about muscle density to support their theories. They would consider themselves well-justified by Black people dominating certain sports. It is the same with trans athletes.
Except that they are competing in the open to everyone category, even if some races had an advantage, thatâs legal in an open to everyone category. Womenâs sports are not open to everyone, only to biological females who donât take performance enhancing substances. Again, if you want to essentially remove women from sports by pretending biological males and females are the same, thatâs your grave to dig.
Race isnât the same as gender, Iâm hoping you realize that. In todayâs world, gender is more a state of mind than anything else, race is not. I can choose to become the opposite gender, I canât choose to be black as a white person.
If trans athletes want to compete in sports, compete in the open to everyone league, donât try to compete in leagues you donât qualify for. Womenâs sports, if they are to still exist, are for biological and non testosterone taking females only.
So you are for getting rid of womenâs sports, special Olympics, and everything in that realm and just letting everyone compete as people of the human race?
As I said, below the ultra-professional level, yes. Inside the ultra-professional level, gender tests are already not used to differentiate people into competition categories so theyâve already solved this problem. Read what I said in my previous post.
even if some races had an advantage, thatâs legal in an open to everyone category
The point is it didnât used to be. This was because people had research at the time showing that Black people had âhigher muscle densityâ and other nonsense pseudoscience that they used to bar them from the âopen to everyone categories.â Which, at the time, were not open to everyone, but only white people.
Since you are just not understanding this: the same arguments used to prevent Black people from competing (they would dominate certain sports, their inclusion would make white people feel bad, their existence is basically the same as taking performance enhancing substances) are literally the same ones used to prevent trans people from competing. We decided those problems didnât matter, and now, yes, Black people do win in certain sporting fields more. But everyoneâs decided thatâs okay.
Literally the same thing will happen with trans people. I know you have this weirdly deep-seated need to believe in the fairness of sports, but fairness is a construction we apply to sports, not something inherent in them naturally. If we include trans people as much as possible, it will still feel fair, even if trans people (gasp) even sometimes win.
In todayâs world, gender is more a state of mind than anything else, race is not. I can choose to become the opposite gender, I canât choose to be black as a white person.
Gender is not âmore a state of mind than anything else,â any more than sex (or race) is. Trans people are their actual genders, they arenât pretending to be a man or woman for the day, any more than a Black person is pretending to be a white person or vice versa.
Frankly, as I said at the beginning of this discussion, the entire sports argument is stupid though. The rights of an entire minority (yes, their rights) shouldnât hinge on whether or not they can compete in sporting events, and every time trans liberation is brought up people whine âbut what about fairness in sports?â
You should find other stuff to care about, because the amount of trans athletes is vanishingly small and the amount of ink spilled on debating their inclusion with sports totally out-of-proportion to the âproblemâ itself.
The NFL isnât a male league for example - itâs an open league. How many women have ever even made it to the tryout stage? One. A kicker. She didnât come close to making even a training squad.
Sam Kerr, the best womenâs soccer player on earth, wouldnât even get close to making a menâs pro team. The world beating womenâs USA team, winners of the past 2 world cups, got annihilated by an under 15s boys team.
The issue isnât just that they might win, itâs that they will naturally dominate in competitions where biological makeup matters.
If you donât see how thatâs not fair I donât know what to tell you. There are hard rules in biology that donât mesh with gender identity politics, and thereâs no way around that.
Lots of people were worried about Black people dominating certain sports. And, as it turns out, Black people do dominate certain sports. Is that unfair to white people?
No. People are just different. Fairness adjusts and we get over it.
How do biological women adapt to someone like Lia Thomas? Are they just going to magically all just grow another foot in height and increase their bone density and muscle mass to levels that women canât naturally get?
Youâre right, itâs not vague at all - itâs not denying trans people exist in any way. Trans people existing isnât an ideology, so questioning the current trans and gender ideology has nothing to do with trans people existing or not. Youâre jumping to conclusions because you want to dismiss any opinion you donât agree with, and currently the âthatâs transphobic!â line is basically a get out of jail free card in that way. Just call someone transphobic and get them banned so you donât have to have your opinion challenged, create that echo chamber you want so badly.
Your response to the sports issue of âwhatâs so wrong with trans women winning womenâs sporting eventsâ says it all. âWho cares about biological women, the feelings of trans women matter more.â
Trans women can compete with men. If there is no physical or biological advantage for males then why do they need to compete with the women? They can compete with the men and should do just fine.
Lia Thomas is all that needs to be pointed out for why your ideology here is wrong. 500+ ranked manâŠâŠinstantly #1 ranked woman. Breaks all the womenâs records. Where are the trans men swimmers dominating the menâs division in swimming? Or in track and field? Cycling? Anywhere at all?!
No one denies trans people exist, but this is how the âprogressivesâ that want males competing with females in sport and using female-only services frame any and all questioning of their ideology and motives.
Why do you guys always always jump straight to âyouâre trying to deny trans people existâ? No one is saying trans people donât exist. people are, however, opposed to people telling preschoolers that if they like stereotypical opposite sex things that theyâre trans and should choose a new name and wear the other genders stereotypical clothes. Itâs indoctrination.
If a kid still believes in Santa clause, telling them theyâre trans and giving them praise and letting them choose their own name etc is forcing your ideology on them. They donât know any better. All they know is an adult is telling them something so it must be true. Again - they believe in Santa clause and the tooth fairy. They donât have the mental capacity to understand these things. They donât have the mental capacity to be making permanent life altering decisions.
This whole âjust asking questionsâ bullshit is just a way the âprogressivesâ try to weaponise anyone questioning their beliefs and ideologies.
If lgbtq people canât stand seeing people have different opinions to them then they should leave. They shouldnât be trying to get everyone else banned.
This is totally nonsense. No one is âindoctrinatingâ children⊠except those who claim that children canât be trans. I would encourage you to swallow your pride and your preconceived notions and actually talk to trans people, many of whom report knowing exactly who they were at the first age they were aware of gender.
Anyway, the rest of your point is basically hateful bullshit. If you canât deal with LGBT people and our opinions, youâre the one that should get out. We frankly donât need you.
No one is âindoctrinatingâ children⊠except those who claim that children canât be trans.
When people say this they mean that children donât have the mental capacity to make that life changing decision. Again - kids believe in santa clause, the easter bunny, and the tooth fairy. They are extremely easily influenced and will believe what their parents tell them to a fault. If you tell a kid theyâre trans because they like the colour pink as a boy or blue as a girl, theyâre gonna believe you. That is the indoctrination people are talking about.
Are there kids that actually have gender dysphoria? Sure. Theyâre the extreme minority of the kids that are currently trans though, because they donât even understand gender let alone âgender identityâ. Even teenagers arenât mentally developed enough to be making life altering decisions, which is why we donât let under 18 year olds get tattoos, drink, vote, etc. If you accept that these restrictions need to be in place for children, how can you be ok with giving them life altering drugs and surgeries?
Anyway, the rest of your point is basically hateful bullshit.
SighâŠthereâs the usual âtransphobicâ type dismissal/attack used to try and stop any and all discussion of differing viewpoints.
If you canât deal with LGBT people and our opinions, youâre the one that should get out. We frankly donât need you.
I can deal with LGBT people, I have no issues with them at all as Iâve said many times. Iâve explained why I donât, and what I do have problems with. Ironic that you say âWe frankly donât need you.â because if that were true you wouldnât be constantly trying to force your beliefs on me.
It is scientific fact; at least every major medical organization in the US is in total agreement about what you refer to as âgender ideology,â and what we call the existence of trans people.
âJust asking questionsâ about it is as disingenuous and false as âjust asking questionsâ about evolution. If you truly believe trans people exist and deserve to be respected you wouldnât feel the need to ask these questions.
But yes, the founder chose anti-trans concerns above trans concerns. LGBT people will leave and the platform will become a conservative circlejerk. You have that part right at least.
I donât agree. I have A LOT of questions about gender identity to which I canât hypothesize answers because as a cis/het person I have no idea what it means and what it feels like being transgender, and I grew up in a time and a place where nobody ever talked about gender identity. The only way I can educate myself is by asking questions. Now I know a lot of people in the LGBTQ community are kinda fed up answering this kind of questions, and with good reason (cf. the âjust asking questionsâ posture of anti-trans people). But some of us are being honest at just asking questions.
Those arenât the kinds of questions the OP was talking about; their dogwhistle about âtrans/gender ideology isnât scientific factâ shows that they are indeed the kind of anti-trans person who is âjust asking questionsâ to harass trans people.
If you have legitimate questions there are many excellent resources on the Internet and even in Lemmy itself where LGBTQ people will be happy to chat with you, if you approach them in a respectful manner :)
Gender ideology is not scientific fact. Gender as it is now know has literally no basis in science. Sex is biological reality. Gender is now a âfeelingâ.
Iâm happy to inform you that gender is also a scientific fact: https://medicine.yale.edu/news-article/what-do-we-mean-by-sex-and-gender/ It literally has a basis in science and you can both study it and perform science on it!
Thatâs disingenuous and your own link doesnât support what you are saying. The link demonstrates that gender to refer to self-identity is both recent and an artificial distinction. The science behind transgenderism is far from settled as much as people would like it to be. We donât even know what causes it.
Oh no⊠it does say exactly that and the science is indeed settled. Thereâs no âartificial distinction;â science says gender and sex are indeed different. Unless of course you can link a reputable scientific organization that disagrees with that overwhelming consensus?
We donât know what causes most cancers either. That doesnât mean they canât be studied scientifically.
I didnât say it shouldnât be scientifically studied. It definitely should be, especially the extremely high rates of comorbid mental illnesses in trans/non-binary people.
The article you linked states that gender is now commonly considered a social construct rather than tied to your biological sex. They are making the distinction so that there is no confusion when reading their papers.
The science is not settled, they are conceding that the common use of the term now has a different meaning than it did in the past.
The science is indeed settled. Asserting once again itâs not or that trans/nb people are mentally ill is both scientifically inaccurate and morally wrong. Unless, of course, you have literally any source claiming otherwise?
I thought not.
Your own link say says that gender is a social construct now. Theyâre saying that there is literally no science involved, there is no basis in scientific fact there.
Thatâs not âscientific factâ. For something to be scientific fact it has to have scientific facts supporting it.
From that article:
âself representationâ is how you feel. Itâs a feeling. Thatâs not scientific fact. Going âwe acknowledge that society now treats gender as a new thing separate to sexâ isnât the same as it being a scientifically proven fact.
Iâm really not seeing the logic here, so called âfeelingsâ are scientific facts and we do studies on them all the time. Is hunger not a feeling? Same thing with self-representation. Those arenât nebulous concepts. Those are well-established scientific facts. Gender is an important part of self-representation and from all indications, one people have very little control over.
So why are there people changing their âgender identityâ multiple times a day?
Show me a scientific study that has found any existence whatsoever of âgender identityâ through science. The very article linked here says itâs a social construct. Social constructs are not âscientific factsâ.
Youâve really jumped deep into things by assuming what the person youâre responding to means isnât scientific fact is the actual existence of trans people. They could, but they were woefully vague.
Most people Iâve interacted with who have misgivings are more focused on things like the insistence that there are no differences between afab and amab bodies, and therefore trans women athletes should be allowed to compete against afab athletes.
Thatâs a currently âunallowed to challengeâ topic that pretty much immediately gets you labelled transphobic, but hereâs the rub: female athletes doping with testosterone to achieve higher muscle mass is something that is banned from sports competitions, so why does it matter whether it was artificially obtained via pill or naturally by the fact that they had years of body and muscle development as male before transistioning?
Thereâs no good solution to this problem, but the fact that anyone who brings it up gets labelled as transphobic is ridiculous. Itâs not inherently denying trans people anything to discuss it (that has more to do with the person discussing it than the topic itself). For me itâs an attempt to ensure that all female athletes afab trans or other are on an even playing field, ideally so people have less excuse to easily dismiss trans athlete achievements.
I donât think this is vague in the slightest:
I know no person interested in trans liberation that also talks about âgender/trans ideology.â
I find sports misgivings a red herring with regards to trans liberation. To me, it feels like asking someone to be less racist, and hearing them respond âwell what about Black people in sports? What about white athletesâ feelings? How do we determine if an athlete is white enough to compete against other whites?â The entire notion is wrong-headed to begin with. Yes, if we include trans people in sports, sometimes they might win. Whatâs so bad about trans people winning at sports?
In any case, clearly the person I was responding to was not talking about this.
Here is the thing when it comes to sports, there are usually two main divisions in most sports, the best of the best league, and the women league. In most sports there is technically no rule against women playing in the best of the best leagues, but they are just at so much of a disadvantage it is almost unheard of for them to be able to compete at that level. The only reason that women only sports exist is to allow people with that biological disadvantage to compete professionally against others with the same disadvantage. Itâs a league thatâs sole purpose is to allow women to be competitive against other women because the men are just so much better.
It might sound like Iâm bashing womenâs sports, but Iâm not. Iâm glad women have an avenue to compete at pro levels, because without women only sports they would not.
I have no problem with anybody trying to compete in the best of the best league, men, women, trans, black, white, etc. But when it comes to leagues specifically limited to give those in the league a fair competition, we shouldnât be opening that up to those who donât have the disadvantage that defines the league. This applies to women leagues, the special Olympics, and other limited leagues.
I know this, I just donât think it matters. Our a priori assumption must be trans people should be included everywhere as much as possible, just like Black people or Jewish people. Fairness will adjust to our expectations, so everything will feel fine in the end, just as it did when we allowed other minorities to compete in leagues they were formerly barred from.
How can it not matter? You have a sport built around the idea of fair competition to a genetic physical weakness, and you think we should just throw that all away? Iâm not sure why you are bringing race and nationality into this discussion, thatâs never been a race based disadvantage that we decided we needed to design sports around.
I agree, but I think sports falls under ânot possibleâ because they donât meet the requirements for the womenâs league. I have no problem with a trans league, or they are more than welcome to compete in the best of the best league. I donât think they should be competing in womenâs sports, itâs unfair to all biological women athletes who compete against other biological women athletes.
And if you want to compare it to race, where the idea of a race segregated sport would be super controversial, letâs just get rid of womenâs sports all together. Women are equal to men, right? They can do anything a man can do, right? What are we pretending women arenât equal by putting them in their own sports leagues? Letâs just get rid of all womenâs sports, let them compete directly with the men, and may the best win.
Iâm fine sorting people by weight classes or hormone levels. But gender is not a useful way to do that and hasnât been for years. The Olympics, for example, tests your hormone levels and not what your natal sex was or what your genitals look like.
But ultimately I just donât think sports matters more than peoplesâ rights. So if we have to abolish gendered sports, especially below the ultra-professional level, Iâm fine with that.
And yes, people did indeed claim certain races had advantages in sports and pointed to science about muscle density to support their theories. They would consider themselves well-justified by Black people dominating certain sports. It is the same with trans athletes.
So you are for getting rid of womenâs sports, special Olympics, and everything in that realm and just letting everyone compete as people of the human race?
What rights? There is no right to compete in stuff you are not eligible for.
So you are fine with women essentially never being competitive in sports? Personally I think itâs great they have their own league, because otherwise there wouldnât really be women in sports.
Except that they are competing in the open to everyone category, even if some races had an advantage, thatâs legal in an open to everyone category. Womenâs sports are not open to everyone, only to biological females who donât take performance enhancing substances. Again, if you want to essentially remove women from sports by pretending biological males and females are the same, thatâs your grave to dig.
Race isnât the same as gender, Iâm hoping you realize that. In todayâs world, gender is more a state of mind than anything else, race is not. I can choose to become the opposite gender, I canât choose to be black as a white person.
If trans athletes want to compete in sports, compete in the open to everyone league, donât try to compete in leagues you donât qualify for. Womenâs sports, if they are to still exist, are for biological and non testosterone taking females only.
As I said, below the ultra-professional level, yes. Inside the ultra-professional level, gender tests are already not used to differentiate people into competition categories so theyâve already solved this problem. Read what I said in my previous post.
The point is it didnât used to be. This was because people had research at the time showing that Black people had âhigher muscle densityâ and other nonsense pseudoscience that they used to bar them from the âopen to everyone categories.â Which, at the time, were not open to everyone, but only white people.
Since you are just not understanding this: the same arguments used to prevent Black people from competing (they would dominate certain sports, their inclusion would make white people feel bad, their existence is basically the same as taking performance enhancing substances) are literally the same ones used to prevent trans people from competing. We decided those problems didnât matter, and now, yes, Black people do win in certain sporting fields more. But everyoneâs decided thatâs okay.
Literally the same thing will happen with trans people. I know you have this weirdly deep-seated need to believe in the fairness of sports, but fairness is a construction we apply to sports, not something inherent in them naturally. If we include trans people as much as possible, it will still feel fair, even if trans people (gasp) even sometimes win.
Gender is not âmore a state of mind than anything else,â any more than sex (or race) is. Trans people are their actual genders, they arenât pretending to be a man or woman for the day, any more than a Black person is pretending to be a white person or vice versa.
Frankly, as I said at the beginning of this discussion, the entire sports argument is stupid though. The rights of an entire minority (yes, their rights) shouldnât hinge on whether or not they can compete in sporting events, and every time trans liberation is brought up people whine âbut what about fairness in sports?â
You should find other stuff to care about, because the amount of trans athletes is vanishingly small and the amount of ink spilled on debating their inclusion with sports totally out-of-proportion to the âproblemâ itself.
Exactly.
The NFL isnât a male league for example - itâs an open league. How many women have ever even made it to the tryout stage? One. A kicker. She didnât come close to making even a training squad.
Sam Kerr, the best womenâs soccer player on earth, wouldnât even get close to making a menâs pro team. The world beating womenâs USA team, winners of the past 2 world cups, got annihilated by an under 15s boys team.
Sex matters in sport, not gender.
The issue isnât just that they might win, itâs that they will naturally dominate in competitions where biological makeup matters.
If you donât see how thatâs not fair I donât know what to tell you. There are hard rules in biology that donât mesh with gender identity politics, and thereâs no way around that.
Fair to whom?
Lots of people were worried about Black people dominating certain sports. And, as it turns out, Black people do dominate certain sports. Is that unfair to white people?
No. People are just different. Fairness adjusts and we get over it.
So too here.
How do biological women adapt to someone like Lia Thomas? Are they just going to magically all just grow another foot in height and increase their bone density and muscle mass to levels that women canât naturally get?
Youâre right, itâs not vague at all - itâs not denying trans people exist in any way. Trans people existing isnât an ideology, so questioning the current trans and gender ideology has nothing to do with trans people existing or not. Youâre jumping to conclusions because you want to dismiss any opinion you donât agree with, and currently the âthatâs transphobic!â line is basically a get out of jail free card in that way. Just call someone transphobic and get them banned so you donât have to have your opinion challenged, create that echo chamber you want so badly.
Your response to the sports issue of âwhatâs so wrong with trans women winning womenâs sporting eventsâ says it all. âWho cares about biological women, the feelings of trans women matter more.â
Trans women can compete with men. If there is no physical or biological advantage for males then why do they need to compete with the women? They can compete with the men and should do just fine.
Lia Thomas is all that needs to be pointed out for why your ideology here is wrong. 500+ ranked manâŠâŠinstantly #1 ranked woman. Breaks all the womenâs records. Where are the trans men swimmers dominating the menâs division in swimming? Or in track and field? Cycling? Anywhere at all?!
Bingo.
No one denies trans people exist, but this is how the âprogressivesâ that want males competing with females in sport and using female-only services frame any and all questioning of their ideology and motives.
Why do you guys always always jump straight to âyouâre trying to deny trans people existâ? No one is saying trans people donât exist. people are, however, opposed to people telling preschoolers that if they like stereotypical opposite sex things that theyâre trans and should choose a new name and wear the other genders stereotypical clothes. Itâs indoctrination.
If a kid still believes in Santa clause, telling them theyâre trans and giving them praise and letting them choose their own name etc is forcing your ideology on them. They donât know any better. All they know is an adult is telling them something so it must be true. Again - they believe in Santa clause and the tooth fairy. They donât have the mental capacity to understand these things. They donât have the mental capacity to be making permanent life altering decisions.
This whole âjust asking questionsâ bullshit is just a way the âprogressivesâ try to weaponise anyone questioning their beliefs and ideologies.
If lgbtq people canât stand seeing people have different opinions to them then they should leave. They shouldnât be trying to get everyone else banned.
This is totally nonsense. No one is âindoctrinatingâ children⊠except those who claim that children canât be trans. I would encourage you to swallow your pride and your preconceived notions and actually talk to trans people, many of whom report knowing exactly who they were at the first age they were aware of gender.
Anyway, the rest of your point is basically hateful bullshit. If you canât deal with LGBT people and our opinions, youâre the one that should get out. We frankly donât need you.
When people say this they mean that children donât have the mental capacity to make that life changing decision. Again - kids believe in santa clause, the easter bunny, and the tooth fairy. They are extremely easily influenced and will believe what their parents tell them to a fault. If you tell a kid theyâre trans because they like the colour pink as a boy or blue as a girl, theyâre gonna believe you. That is the indoctrination people are talking about.
Are there kids that actually have gender dysphoria? Sure. Theyâre the extreme minority of the kids that are currently trans though, because they donât even understand gender let alone âgender identityâ. Even teenagers arenât mentally developed enough to be making life altering decisions, which is why we donât let under 18 year olds get tattoos, drink, vote, etc. If you accept that these restrictions need to be in place for children, how can you be ok with giving them life altering drugs and surgeries?
SighâŠthereâs the usual âtransphobicâ type dismissal/attack used to try and stop any and all discussion of differing viewpoints.
I can deal with LGBT people, I have no issues with them at all as Iâve said many times. Iâve explained why I donât, and what I do have problems with. Ironic that you say âWe frankly donât need you.â because if that were true you wouldnât be constantly trying to force your beliefs on me.