• ameancow@lemmy.world
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    4 months ago

    My only real claim is that we don’t know shit.

    This is partially true. But I want to stress partially.

    We do have very robust models of climate, of exchange cycles, of how chemicals and atmospheres and heat and cold and life all interplay, if we didn’t have these models we wouldn’t be aware of the impending danger and we would be saying “wow this hot spell sure is lasting” so let’s give science some credit here.

    And that’s MY only position and reason for pushback. There STILL can be things done to avert the worst-case models, it’s going to be bad but it could also be a lot worse if no action is taken, and more likely than not, our species is going to slide through this one like Indiana Jones grabbing his hat behind the lowering stone block, but it’s not going to be without a lot of suffering and sorrow and loss of life.

    But if this science denial/doubting continues, we might not gain enough traction and momentum in our education and outreach efforts to ensure actions are taken to reduce the amount of harm coming. The harm coming is going to be worse than anything we have imagined in Humanity’s long history, but we CAN get through it, we may even fix it if enough people can start working together. Maybe a few more degrees and people’s discomfort will finally drive our species to avert course at the last second like we tend to do a lot.

    But science denial has been an agent of chaos that has put us here to begin with. I don’t like using science to predict the near future and then abandoning it when we need to make educated speculation on what can and cannot happen. If you truly believe that this trend is going to lead to iron boiling on Earth’s surface, that’s fine and you can believe that and it’s not a hill worth a fight much less a death, I’m just telling you that’s not what’s going to happen. Life will survive us.

    The “exponential” heating curve you’re seeing on the graphs is a measurement of rates of change, NOT a measurement of maximum possible heat indexes or a prediction of long-term climate models, because Earth’s climate is complicated, it tends to change itself over long periods of time.

    The most extreme instance we can see in the fossil/geological record was the Permian Extinction, where Earth lost 96% of all life, this was due to the Earth basically disemboweling itself across what’s now Russia and Siberia. This was a lake of fire that covered a sizable portion of Earth and gases and ash that plunged the Earth into a runaway greenhouse with deadly acid oceans and then eventually back to frozen snowball as the greenhouse gases began to stabilize (most greenhouse gases don’t have geologically long lifespans unless some process is replenishing them like Venus’s volcanic activity, even Carbon will eventually react or bond with things and over vast stretches of time be pulled back into the Earth from a variety of biological and abiotic processes.)

    It’s also speculated that life was already thriving while Earth was undergoing the Late Heavy Bombardment, a period of around a billion years where Earth was just getting pummeled by everything from space debris to small planetoids, this was the period of time that saw the formation of the landscape of the Moon, and Earth didn’t look too different, with seas of molten lava and craters everywhere.

    While sure it’s possible for a runaway greenhouse to create sterilizing conditions, there is just no scenario where we can see that as an outcome from human activity based on what we know.

    And speculation does have its limits, we’re just all trying to be smart here and show we understand those limits. Just because there are gaps in our knowledge, we don’t need to summon Russel’s Teapot.

    • Sterile_Technique@lemmy.world
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      3 months ago

      In agreement with almost everything you posted… although that has me continuing to scratch my head at the disconnect leading up to now.

      Just a handful of points to address-

      If you truly believe that this trend is going to lead to iron boiling on Earth’s surface

      I don’t, nor did I ever claim to. I do believe the fireball we live next to, which is large enough to fit a million-and-some-change Earths inside of it, has more than enough energy to make that happen, especially over the course of a million years, if the right circumstances align; and that those circumstances are within the scope of possibility our universe is capable of serving.

      The case I’m trying to make isn’t to support the worse case scenario; but to emphasize that there are a ton of possible scenarios, some really really good, others really really bad; and that we cannot point to any one of them and credibly claim “That IS going to happen!”

      Life will survive us.

      Absolutely. But that life has its limits, just as we have ours. And when those limits are met, there may be an even more resilient flavor of life that takes the stage; but that chain isn’t infinite, especially within the scope of a single planet. Further narrowed to the million-year scope of this conversation… yeah my wager is with everyone else here that there will probably still be life left on Earth. I just can’t say with absolution that there will be.

      Russel’s Teapot

      I’m not sure if that’s directed at my inability to prove the worse case scenario (gotta reiterate - that was never my goal!) or the inability to prove life will prevail. Either way, you’re correct to call it out as a fallacy. At this point I think we’re mostly just splitting hairs over where to draw the line between ‘might’ and ‘will’. I tend to treat absolutes at face value, so things like “life WILL survive” vs “life WILL PROBABLY survive” are two very very different things. The former has no room for error, regardless how minute. Or to the previous point “Life will survive us” vs “Life will survive -period-”; can say the first with certainty, but not the second.

       

      I gotta get my ass to bed, but I can’t overstate how refreshing your posts are. The amount of strawman in this thread was really getting under my skin. Not used to seeing that here, even if the source of the discussion is just a 4 panel meme.

      • ameancow@lemmy.world
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        3 months ago

        I am happy to have raised the bar a little for online science discussion, it’s very tempting and easy to rip someone’s throat out if you don’t understand what they’re trying to communicate, and sadly I think that weird dopamine hit of attacking a stranger has become a worldwide addiction reaching pandemic proportions. But we’re really shooting all ourselves in the foot by making a world where we can’t talk to strangers. People stay strangers that way and strangers are less inclined to help each other, and in the coming decades… we will really, really need each other.

        That all said, I am passionate about science with decades of study, and lately, specifically, geology and climate… I highly recommend some youtube channels like https://www.youtube.com/@HistoryoftheEarth or https://www.youtube.com/@myroncook for some starting points that are accessible and fascinating looks at the long, intense, unimaginable history of our planet, or another way of looking at it, the story of how rocks became something that can question where they came from.

        • Sterile_Technique@lemmy.world
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          3 months ago

          Subbed the channels. It’s not my area of study, but I’ve definitely got at least a hobbyist-level of interest in things like physics and astronomy, which Earth sciences ofc fall into. Next semester of nursing school starts NEXT WEEK (fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck) so I probably shouldn’t dive down any new content rabbit holes at this point, but it’s in my feed now so definitely marked for future down time!