• cleanprairiedog@lemmy.worldOP
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        3 days ago

        The vast majority of aborted fetuses are not sentient. Sentience is the ability to know oneself exists through feeling. Yet in the US, there are laws protecting insensate biological material but not sentient male chicks ground up alive in the egg industry. I see the moral value of a day old chick as far more than a 14 week fetus since the male chick has sentience and can feel pain while a 14 week old fetus cannot.

        • NSRXN@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          2 days ago

          Sentience is the ability to know oneself exists through feeling.

          no, it’s the ability to feel (especially pain)

        • Ledivin@lemmy.world
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          3 days ago

          The idea that a human fetus is on the same level as humans is also laughable 🤷‍♂️

          • Ricky Rigatoni 🇺🇸@lemm.ee
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            3 days ago

            It’s still orders of magnitude above a chicken, and comparing the two is a joke. I’m a fetus deletus caster, just so we don’t have a confusion on my stance on that part.

            • Ledivin@lemmy.world
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              3 days ago

              It’s still orders of magnitude above a chicken

              Disagree

              comparing the two is a joke

              Agree. Not sure why you keep insisting on doing so

        • cleanprairiedog@lemmy.worldOP
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          3 days ago

          Humans are animals. Why doesn’t it make sense to protect the rights of beings that can feel and know they exist over biological material that can’t feel or know it exists?

          • Ricky Rigatoni 🇺🇸@lemm.ee
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            3 days ago

            Will someone please teach the mean old foxes that eating chickens is morally reprehensible, too? All animals are equal, after all.

            • chetradley@lemm.ee
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              3 days ago

              Do you base your moral code on what animals do to each other? That would allow a lot of fucked up things.

            • Darth_Mew@lemmy.world
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              3 days ago

              you just want to argue or are brain damaged wtf does a predator hunting an animal for food have to do with unthinking killing of billions of chicks for no reason other than $$$.

            • Rekorse@sh.itjust.works
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              2 days ago

              Nobody gives a shit about wild animals. If a farmer brings an animal into the world for agriculture, they are responsible for that life. Thats what people are talking about. Lions and tigers can eat all they want who gives a fuck.

        • chetradley@lemm.ee
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          3 days ago

          In many ways, no they’re not. The average chicken/pig/cow isn’t on the same intelligence level as the average human, for instance.

          That being said, you’re not going to convince me that those differences are great enough to justify enslaving and killing them by the billions when alternatives exist.

            • chetradley@lemm.ee
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              3 days ago

              Subjugate, exploit, confine against their will… We can argue semantics all day but the result is the same.

              • NSRXN@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                2 days ago

                confine against their will

                they don’t know what’s good for them. protecting them from the elements and predators and starvation is good.

                • chetradley@lemm.ee
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                  2 days ago

                  Not breeding them into existence just to kill them at a fraction of their natural lifespan is much better.

          • ricecake@sh.itjust.works
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            3 days ago

            It being the same species as me. There’s no objective reason I’m “better” than a chicken since value is a subjective measure.

            Since it’s subjective though, it’s not unreasonable to say that as humans, we value humans more than chickens.
            We’ll never escape the subjective nature of value judgements, but as long as we’re honest about their subjectivity we can work with it.

            A moral system that requires me to pretend that when you, my child, and a chicken are trapped in a burning building that I’ll be unconcerned about who gets rescued first is a non-starter. Likewise, when it’s me, your child, and a chicken it’s a non-starter to assume you’ll have the same priorities as me.

            • enkers@sh.itjust.works
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              3 days ago

              That’s a straw man, though. That’s not what the argument is.

              It’s not about whether or not other animals have the same moral value as us. It’s about whether or not they have sufficient moral value to not be killed for a moment of sensory pleasure, when other options exist.

              • ricecake@sh.itjust.works
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                2 days ago

                I’m not sure I see how it’s a strawman. I haven’t misrepresented what anyone was claiming. I immediately agreed that there’s no objective measure of value that makes a human on a “different level” than a chicken.
                Pretty sure the conversation that I was responding to was about if they have the same moral value.

                It seems like you want to have a different conversation, which is fine, but don’t pretend the conversation you want to be having is the one that was and everyone else is a jerk for not knowing that.

                • enkers@sh.itjust.works
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                  2 days ago

                  Perhaps I misunderstood, so let’s back up a step.

                  Do you think veganism entails a “moral system that requires [you] to pretend that when [your child] and a chicken are trapped in a burning building that [you’ll] be unconcerned about who gets rescued”?

                  • ricecake@sh.itjust.works
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                    2 days ago

                    Nope, not at all. That was, in conjunction with the complementary example where the trapped people swap around, an example of worth and value of beings being subjective, and how belief that humans and chickens are of truly equal consequence is not something that is believed often, if ever.

                    Sometimes arguments for veganism can convey that it entails that belief though, even though it does not. This can cause disagreement where one party argues that they have more value than a chicken, and the other is arguing that a chicken “has value”. One party hears “your life and a chickens are equally important”, and the other hears “there is nothing you can do to a chicken that is morally impermissible”.

                    Inspired by the “fire at an IVF clinic, who do you grab, the baby or the cooler with 500 human embryos” used to demonstrate that people don’t really value an embryo as much as a baby, but I didn’t want to imply a parallel between veganism and anti-abortion, or say they were hypocritical.

                • enkers@sh.itjust.works
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                  2 days ago

                  Ok, so if someone else just decides your life isn’t of value, then that’s OK since your moral worth is subjective? Am I understanding your argument properly?

                  • NSRXN@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                    2 days ago

                    value judgements can’t be objectively correct. you’re allowed to arrange your values how ever you like.

                  • ricecake@sh.itjust.works
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                    2 days ago

                    I’m fairly confident you are not.

                    It’s not okay for someone to hurt me to me in my subjective moral opinion.

                    If a lion attacks a human, I don’t view it as a moral failing on the part of the lion. It’s still an affront to how we order the importance of creatures, so we’ll destroy the lion because it poses a threat to something we view as more important than it, and so much more important than it’s not worth the risk of trying other options and letting them fail, usually.

                    Socially, we expect humans to have a baseline of shared values necessary for society to function. Social contract and all that. If someone behaves in a fashion outside that baseline, they either share the values and chose to transgress, or they don’t share the values and have no issue with what they’re doing. In either case the people who share that baseline inevitably seek some method of protecting themselves from this person.

                    Acknowledging that what we value is subjective does not obligate us to value what others value, or to ignore when they act contrary to ours.
                    Like I said above: in a fire I’ll rescue my child before I rescue a stranger or a chicken. Likewise, I don’t expect the stranger to rescue my child before their own, but I do expect them to rescue mine before the chicken.