I would add that dehumanizing rhetoric of any kind can become a gateway drug to justifying atrocity. No matter what side you stand on. It can contribute to the radicalization of any group. Nobody is immune to becoming a monster.
Not everyone is willing to do what’s necessary to cure the disease. I am willing. If that makes me a monster, then I am the monster they themselves created.
Conservatism is a plague of oppression and death. It always has been. History has proven time after time that pacifism cannot stop conservatives. We must be willing to do difficult things to survive this kind of deadly infection. Preaching peace is unfortunately not helpful. It placates those who are better served by understanding the danger we are all in and what needs to happen to stop that threat.
I am not arguing in favor of pacifism. I fully recognize the need to defend against harmful ideologies that infect people’s minds with bad ideas. And if those who harbor bad ideas threaten violence then it may be necessary to react in kind. I accept that.
I’m simply saying that it matters what kind of language we use when we talk about it. Calling conservatives, or any opposing side perceived as a violent threat, subhuman creates the misconception that your own side could not ever be in the wrong. In so doing, it is possible that the we too could become infected with the bad idea that “All (insert opposing threat here) must die.” I don’t ever in my life time want to see anything like the Holocaust happen because people couldn’t stop and think that at some point the killing needs to stop, because it’s reached a point where we are no longer defending and only killing out of pure and base fear that the threat will rise up again. There is a point where self defense goes too far and gives rise to genocide. That possibility scares the hell out of me.
We should instead call all conservatives subhuman because the tenets of whatever the fuck passes for conservative these days are senselessly antagonistic and cruel to the vulnerable among us
I don’t disagree with you, but at some point, most of these folks are grown ass adults with full cognitive capacity and the same access to information as the rest of us.
It’s a commitment and dedication to wilfull ignorance that is a conscious decision. They make the choice to ignore new information and ignore their own values and hypocrisy. They are 100% responsible for their own actions and treating them as victims invalidates their responsibilities and denies them personal accountability.
I don’t know that I’d call them subhuman, but they are hurting, killing, and oppressing people in active worship to the God of ignorance. These are bad people, and they don’t deserve your defense.
There was a time when you would have been right, but at this point, they are a part of the problem, not a symptom of it.
They are actively voting in and supporting people who are disrupting attempts to mitigate the actual issues. For example, every American should be against gerrymandering, as it is expressly anti-democratic, yet here we are voting in toxic people who are running interference on any effort to combat it.
This should be a bipartisan issue. I lived in Maryland for a long time and my district looked like an electrocuted spider, in favor of the Dems. Republicans should be against this, but here we are slamming our hand into the car door every time we try to make progress.
The people pulling the strings should be held accountable, no question. Pretending that these folks aren’t the problem is nice for diplomacy, but it’s no longer the case.
We can hold them responsible for their actions and still recognize that they are victims of indoctrination. However, this would require the same intellectual honesty you chastise them for not having.
Straight to the personal attacks? Not really a great argument, particularly when the rest of it amounts to “NUH UH!!”.
I’m gonna need more than that. @aerolemming@lemm.ee and I were having a pretty civil discussion, and I appreciate his points, though I personally disagree with them.
I’m sorry my comment didn’t meet your standards. I’m tired of reading the same intellectually vapid nonsense every day. “Why can’t these evil/ignorant/despicable fools just see the world the way I see it!?” You treat them the same way they treat us and expect them to have some kind of coming-to-jesus moment as a result. IMO, thinking this way requires the same level of cognitive dissonance as being a Trumpster. You need to read the room and see that your method doesn’t solve the problem you want it to solve. It exacerbates it. Instead of crying out to the world, wishing everyone else would do the hard work of expanding their understanding of political theory, history, and philosophy, maybe do that work yourself first.
Can you look beyond the harshness in the tone of my paragraph and take the constructive criticism I’m offering? This is what you’re asking them to do.
I considered myself a libertarian before I saw how the people on the right reacted to same-sex marriage being legalized. Their collective reaction broke the lie that they were the party of freedom/equality. I spent years deprogramming/re-educating myself. Now I’m very progressive and much more sensitive to biased info sources, but… I’m dating a “conservative”. He’s questioning his political beliefs now due to the right’s resurgence of anti-lgbtq and the conversations we’ve had surrounding that.
Thing is, all humans attach their beliefs/values/principles to the narrative they sell themselves about who they are. We settle into these narratives as we come of age, and constantly reinforce them through our perceptions of our lived experiences. For someone to be able to withstand the process of unraveling and reconstructing who they are on a fundamental level, an extreme event is necessary. Something that shocks them with enough force to break one of the core beliefs of whatever system they’re beholden to.
YOUR PROBLEM is that you lack understanding in this area of human nature. That lack of understanding leads to frustration, resentment, and ultimately the same tribalism you see in the people you choose to hate. You see them as sub-human, automatically elevating yourself above them because your confirmation bias tells you that your version of truth is the only real truth, but you’re too heavily steeped in your own soup to realize that you’re engaging with politics the exact same way they are.
Be better. Hate the swindlers, not the swindled. Don’t tolerate intolerance either. Just gently point out when they’re being intolerant and let them (hopefully) stubble into their own epiphanies.
TL:DR; Confirmation bias is a helluva drug. Your willful ignorance of your own confirmation bias is blinding you and limiting your ability to understand basic human nature. I hope this stimulates a little more thought, with a little more intellectual honesty on your part. Cheers.
I’m a gay progressive that lives in Texas. I’ve lived my entire life surrounded by conservatives and I’m currently dating one. I know exactly what I’m talking about. Learn to examine the beliefs you hold before you criticize others for their inability to do the same.
Those “victims” will gleefully watch you suffer and die. They will smile as your existence becomes illegal. Those “victims” will proudly facilitate your death and, in many cases, will physically participate in committing that murder.
Nearly every act of domestic terrorism in U.S. history has been committed by conservatives. Nearly every act of racism, bigotry, misogyny, xenophobia, homophobia, transphobia and antisemitism in our country is committed by conservafives. They are not the victims, they are the victimizers.
Conservatives have the entirety of the world’s knowledge at their fingertips and access to the world’s foremost experts. Yet, they choose to follow hateful ideologies. They choose to be opposed to education. They choose to condemn scientists and doctors as liars and traitors. Conservatives are not the victims. They are not victims of anything at all.
I was born and raised in the south in a conservative household. I recently retired from a profession completely infested with conservatives. I know conservatism very well, unfortunately.
They know they are voting for bigots. They know they are voting for misogynists. They know they are voting for white nationalists. If they are able to consume media well enough to know what days to vote and where to vote, then they know what these candidates are.
The people you are describing often refer to themselves as “centrists” so they can pretend they aren’t racist, bigoted misogynists like the people they vote for. That is deception. They are deceiving you so you don’t disown them for being vile garbage.
Because it’s the internet, and different communities exist in different places. I watched Reddit deteriorate into a far-left cesspool like many others, and hoped this would be a place where talking to other people and having discussions is encouraged. More so, I thought this would be a place where delegating your political opposition as ‘subhumans’ would be countered the way it should be.
I assume you don’t use it then. I still do, but I’m trying to get away from it. What you just said is completely inaccurate, but that’s understandable if you don’t frequent the site. I have only seen that kind of language used on 4chan.
You’re still relying on old information. He clarified this. Starlink was never active over crimea. He was asked to activate it and said no as that was part of the restrictions on the deployment and would have been breaking the terms that clarified it as an act of war from the west.
He didn’t shut them off. Access was never active in that region.
Missiles and satellite arrays have no similarities in the way they technologically function. So this argument doesn’t actually hold any water. Elon musk is the operator of the starlink. Ukraine does not operate starlink satellites. Ukraine operates the missiles we GIVE to them. Meaning the baton of ownership has been passed off from the united states to Ukraine. The Ukrainian operators then have the autonomy to do with that as they see fit. This is why we give Ukraine guns and bullets but we dont give them the human soldier to fire them. Because this implicates direct US involvement in an offensive strike against Russia. In June 2023 starlink won contract with the pentagon. Meaning elon musk and starlink are acting as agents of the united states government and as such as bound by very similar rules of engagement that the normal US military is. The difference between giving them missiles and starlink is that we can’t just say “here are your very own satellites that you have the keys and drivers wheel to and they belong to you now”
Over Ukrainian territory. For defensive purposes. Where it was originally agreed for. Crimea hasn’t been Ukraine for years (even though it should be). Offensives into Russia were not part of any operational original deals.
The individual base station (or whatever) has its service deactivated when it goes to Crimea, which is internationally recognized as Ukrainian territory.
No one but Russian bootlickers think Crimea is part of Russia.
Right. The individual base stations always have had a service region. It’s why I can’t use starlink over international waters and the same thing happens from a fishing boat or anything. There’s no purposeful deactivations. Just boundaries of service already established.
It’s literally part of the service when you sign up.
You’re right that technically he could provide coverage anywhere in the world. There’s lots of reasons he doesn’t. But that’s always been part of the service.
18 UNcountries recognize it as Russian territory. Some of them large superpowers or economic hubs. Including one that’s expected to launch starlink soon. (Though all generally shitty countries.)
But aside from that. The rules for supplying things to Ukraine were spelled out very clearly. It’s why none of the Western supplies hsve been used in Russian territory attacks. Doing so Russia claimed it would retaliate.
The articles are claiming that he intentionally turned it off when it was originally on and that’s not the case. It was never active there.
Look if you want to play semantics, fine. The most finite definition is that starlink satellites deactivate every time they pass over Crimea. He actively contributes to russias strike capabilities on a daily basis. It’s far worse than the story, not better.
Won’t matter when Ukraine creates their own capabilities, but fuck musk just the same.
Musk is beholden to various international laws when providing this coverage. Like it or not Russia considers crimea their territory and would not respond kindly to musk allowing it’s use over their territory.
Like I love how everyone just expects this dude to just as a civilian piss off a nation who can shoot his satellites down or consider it an act of war on his own.
Yes. However Russia has claimed it years before this conflict and threatened retaliation if westerners interfere. It’s why all of the supplies we give are only used in Ukraine. The attacks on Russian soil are not with Western supplies intentionally and this would be no different.
You do realize starlink has always had regional and location based activation for multitudes of reasons. Including laws of said countries.
Yes. It’s deactivated over crimea. It always was.
Similar to how it stopped functioning if you tried to use it in international waters.
If you get starlink location of use is included in the setup. Which is why you can’t just slap it onto a boat or something. (though they do now sell a starlink with that functionality)
Fuck elon musk for not allowing Ukraine to dismantle those war machines providing cover for this type of diabolical behavior to continue.
Elon, like any other conservative sub-human, will always side with oppressors. Always.
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I would add that dehumanizing rhetoric of any kind can become a gateway drug to justifying atrocity. No matter what side you stand on. It can contribute to the radicalization of any group. Nobody is immune to becoming a monster.
Not everyone is willing to do what’s necessary to cure the disease. I am willing. If that makes me a monster, then I am the monster they themselves created.
Conservatism is a plague of oppression and death. It always has been. History has proven time after time that pacifism cannot stop conservatives. We must be willing to do difficult things to survive this kind of deadly infection. Preaching peace is unfortunately not helpful. It placates those who are better served by understanding the danger we are all in and what needs to happen to stop that threat.
I am not arguing in favor of pacifism. I fully recognize the need to defend against harmful ideologies that infect people’s minds with bad ideas. And if those who harbor bad ideas threaten violence then it may be necessary to react in kind. I accept that.
I’m simply saying that it matters what kind of language we use when we talk about it. Calling conservatives, or any opposing side perceived as a violent threat, subhuman creates the misconception that your own side could not ever be in the wrong. In so doing, it is possible that the we too could become infected with the bad idea that “All (insert opposing threat here) must die.” I don’t ever in my life time want to see anything like the Holocaust happen because people couldn’t stop and think that at some point the killing needs to stop, because it’s reached a point where we are no longer defending and only killing out of pure and base fear that the threat will rise up again. There is a point where self defense goes too far and gives rise to genocide. That possibility scares the hell out of me.
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We should instead call all conservatives subhuman because the tenets of whatever the fuck passes for conservative these days are senselessly antagonistic and cruel to the vulnerable among us
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I don’t disagree with you, but at some point, most of these folks are grown ass adults with full cognitive capacity and the same access to information as the rest of us.
It’s a commitment and dedication to wilfull ignorance that is a conscious decision. They make the choice to ignore new information and ignore their own values and hypocrisy. They are 100% responsible for their own actions and treating them as victims invalidates their responsibilities and denies them personal accountability.
I don’t know that I’d call them subhuman, but they are hurting, killing, and oppressing people in active worship to the God of ignorance. These are bad people, and they don’t deserve your defense.
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There was a time when you would have been right, but at this point, they are a part of the problem, not a symptom of it.
They are actively voting in and supporting people who are disrupting attempts to mitigate the actual issues. For example, every American should be against gerrymandering, as it is expressly anti-democratic, yet here we are voting in toxic people who are running interference on any effort to combat it.
This should be a bipartisan issue. I lived in Maryland for a long time and my district looked like an electrocuted spider, in favor of the Dems. Republicans should be against this, but here we are slamming our hand into the car door every time we try to make progress.
The people pulling the strings should be held accountable, no question. Pretending that these folks aren’t the problem is nice for diplomacy, but it’s no longer the case.
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We can hold them responsible for their actions and still recognize that they are victims of indoctrination. However, this would require the same intellectual honesty you chastise them for not having.
Straight to the personal attacks? Not really a great argument, particularly when the rest of it amounts to “NUH UH!!”.
I’m gonna need more than that. @aerolemming@lemm.ee and I were having a pretty civil discussion, and I appreciate his points, though I personally disagree with them.
Read the room, man.
I’m sorry my comment didn’t meet your standards. I’m tired of reading the same intellectually vapid nonsense every day. “Why can’t these evil/ignorant/despicable fools just see the world the way I see it!?” You treat them the same way they treat us and expect them to have some kind of coming-to-jesus moment as a result. IMO, thinking this way requires the same level of cognitive dissonance as being a Trumpster. You need to read the room and see that your method doesn’t solve the problem you want it to solve. It exacerbates it. Instead of crying out to the world, wishing everyone else would do the hard work of expanding their understanding of political theory, history, and philosophy, maybe do that work yourself first.
Can you look beyond the harshness in the tone of my paragraph and take the constructive criticism I’m offering? This is what you’re asking them to do.
As long as they keep indoctrinating newer generations, they are part of the oppressors.
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Are they still victims when they become violent? Or when they promote violence? At some point the threshold is crossed.
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So the poor defenseless indoctrinated are ok with racism in their party and nazism? They have no autonomy at all to choose?
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I considered myself a libertarian before I saw how the people on the right reacted to same-sex marriage being legalized. Their collective reaction broke the lie that they were the party of freedom/equality. I spent years deprogramming/re-educating myself. Now I’m very progressive and much more sensitive to biased info sources, but… I’m dating a “conservative”. He’s questioning his political beliefs now due to the right’s resurgence of anti-lgbtq and the conversations we’ve had surrounding that.
Thing is, all humans attach their beliefs/values/principles to the narrative they sell themselves about who they are. We settle into these narratives as we come of age, and constantly reinforce them through our perceptions of our lived experiences. For someone to be able to withstand the process of unraveling and reconstructing who they are on a fundamental level, an extreme event is necessary. Something that shocks them with enough force to break one of the core beliefs of whatever system they’re beholden to.
YOUR PROBLEM is that you lack understanding in this area of human nature. That lack of understanding leads to frustration, resentment, and ultimately the same tribalism you see in the people you choose to hate. You see them as sub-human, automatically elevating yourself above them because your confirmation bias tells you that your version of truth is the only real truth, but you’re too heavily steeped in your own soup to realize that you’re engaging with politics the exact same way they are.
Be better. Hate the swindlers, not the swindled. Don’t tolerate intolerance either. Just gently point out when they’re being intolerant and let them (hopefully) stubble into their own epiphanies.
TL:DR; Confirmation bias is a helluva drug. Your willful ignorance of your own confirmation bias is blinding you and limiting your ability to understand basic human nature. I hope this stimulates a little more thought, with a little more intellectual honesty on your part. Cheers.
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I’m a gay progressive that lives in Texas. I’ve lived my entire life surrounded by conservatives and I’m currently dating one. I know exactly what I’m talking about. Learn to examine the beliefs you hold before you criticize others for their inability to do the same.
Those “victims” will gleefully watch you suffer and die. They will smile as your existence becomes illegal. Those “victims” will proudly facilitate your death and, in many cases, will physically participate in committing that murder.
Nearly every act of domestic terrorism in U.S. history has been committed by conservatives. Nearly every act of racism, bigotry, misogyny, xenophobia, homophobia, transphobia and antisemitism in our country is committed by conservafives. They are not the victims, they are the victimizers.
Conservatives have the entirety of the world’s knowledge at their fingertips and access to the world’s foremost experts. Yet, they choose to follow hateful ideologies. They choose to be opposed to education. They choose to condemn scientists and doctors as liars and traitors. Conservatives are not the victims. They are not victims of anything at all.
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I was born and raised in the south in a conservative household. I recently retired from a profession completely infested with conservatives. I know conservatism very well, unfortunately.
They know they are voting for bigots. They know they are voting for misogynists. They know they are voting for white nationalists. If they are able to consume media well enough to know what days to vote and where to vote, then they know what these candidates are.
The people you are describing often refer to themselves as “centrists” so they can pretend they aren’t racist, bigoted misogynists like the people they vote for. That is deception. They are deceiving you so you don’t disown them for being vile garbage.
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Hey man. There’s no need for that
Very redundant
I thought Lemmy was different than Reddit. I’m not mad, just disappointed.
It is the internet, why did you think it would be different?
Still the same people show up.
Has anyone ever told you that you look like Hony Tawk?
Because it’s the internet, and different communities exist in different places. I watched Reddit deteriorate into a far-left cesspool like many others, and hoped this would be a place where talking to other people and having discussions is encouraged. More so, I thought this would be a place where delegating your political opposition as ‘subhumans’ would be countered the way it should be.
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I assume you don’t use it then. I still do, but I’m trying to get away from it. What you just said is completely inaccurate, but that’s understandable if you don’t frequent the site. I have only seen that kind of language used on 4chan.
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I didn’t know Trump was far-left
You’re quoting my sentence, yet responding with something completely different than what I said. Why?
If you think Trump is popular on Reddit, spend about 5 minutes browsing the site on any day of the week. That’s blatantly false.
Now now. You don’t want the Musk rats attacking you.
Not sure what Elons reasoning is here, but i guess if it wasnt for Starlink, communication would have collapsed in the first week.
You’re still relying on old information. He clarified this. Starlink was never active over crimea. He was asked to activate it and said no as that was part of the restrictions on the deployment and would have been breaking the terms that clarified it as an act of war from the west.
He didn’t shut them off. Access was never active in that region.
“Raytheon never deactivated their missiles, they just don’t work over the target.”
That’s deactivating them dummy. Where do you think Ukraine is going with their Starlinks? Disneyland?
Missiles and satellite arrays have no similarities in the way they technologically function. So this argument doesn’t actually hold any water. Elon musk is the operator of the starlink. Ukraine does not operate starlink satellites. Ukraine operates the missiles we GIVE to them. Meaning the baton of ownership has been passed off from the united states to Ukraine. The Ukrainian operators then have the autonomy to do with that as they see fit. This is why we give Ukraine guns and bullets but we dont give them the human soldier to fire them. Because this implicates direct US involvement in an offensive strike against Russia. In June 2023 starlink won contract with the pentagon. Meaning elon musk and starlink are acting as agents of the united states government and as such as bound by very similar rules of engagement that the normal US military is. The difference between giving them missiles and starlink is that we can’t just say “here are your very own satellites that you have the keys and drivers wheel to and they belong to you now”
Over Ukrainian territory. For defensive purposes. Where it was originally agreed for. Crimea hasn’t been Ukraine for years (even though it should be). Offensives into Russia were not part of any operational original deals.
It’s not deactivating if it was never live there.
The individual base station (or whatever) has its service deactivated when it goes to Crimea, which is internationally recognized as Ukrainian territory.
No one but Russian bootlickers think Crimea is part of Russia.
Right. The individual base stations always have had a service region. It’s why I can’t use starlink over international waters and the same thing happens from a fishing boat or anything. There’s no purposeful deactivations. Just boundaries of service already established.
It’s literally part of the service when you sign up.
You’re right that technically he could provide coverage anywhere in the world. There’s lots of reasons he doesn’t. But that’s always been part of the service.
18 UNcountries recognize it as Russian territory. Some of them large superpowers or economic hubs. Including one that’s expected to launch starlink soon. (Though all generally shitty countries.)
But aside from that. The rules for supplying things to Ukraine were spelled out very clearly. It’s why none of the Western supplies hsve been used in Russian territory attacks. Doing so Russia claimed it would retaliate.
The articles are claiming that he intentionally turned it off when it was originally on and that’s not the case. It was never active there.
Look if you want to play semantics, fine. The most finite definition is that starlink satellites deactivate every time they pass over Crimea. He actively contributes to russias strike capabilities on a daily basis. It’s far worse than the story, not better.
Won’t matter when Ukraine creates their own capabilities, but fuck musk just the same.
Musk is beholden to various international laws when providing this coverage. Like it or not Russia considers crimea their territory and would not respond kindly to musk allowing it’s use over their territory.
Like I love how everyone just expects this dude to just as a civilian piss off a nation who can shoot his satellites down or consider it an act of war on his own.
Russia, Belarus, China, North Korea, Cuba, Eritrea. What are rest of 12 countries?
India , and several African and middle eastern countries. (iirc Iran was on there etc). By no means a real winner list but just worth noting.
In particular India which starlink is set to go active in very soon.
Crimea is in Ukraine.
Yes. However Russia has claimed it years before this conflict and threatened retaliation if westerners interfere. It’s why all of the supplies we give are only used in Ukraine. The attacks on Russian soil are not with Western supplies intentionally and this would be no different.
No, it claimed when conflict started. Just before February Putin didn’t go any further.
? Russia has claimed crimea since they annexed it years ago.
This is correct. Statement that Crimea was annexed before conflict started is incorrect.
You do know those starlinks move over the planets surface, right?
The only way to not have them active over a certain area (excluding the poles) is by deactivating them when they fly over.
Either Elmo doesn’t know how his own planet wide network works, or he is lying.
You do realize starlink has always had regional and location based activation for multitudes of reasons. Including laws of said countries.
Yes. It’s deactivated over crimea. It always was.
Similar to how it stopped functioning if you tried to use it in international waters.
If you get starlink location of use is included in the setup. Which is why you can’t just slap it onto a boat or something. (though they do now sell a starlink with that functionality)
Can you cite this? If you’re right, I’d be interested in knowing more