The Air Force is the only one of the military branches involved in President Donald Trump's mandated border mission to not disclose publicly the number of service members or what units they're coming from.
You’re moving the goal posts. The Air Force isn’t enforcing domestic policy. They’re operating an aircraft to provide logistics for other federal agencies.
That’s a semantic dispute, and service members have received sanctions for even support roles that are not directly excluded in the act .
"The Posse Comitatus Act prohibits using active duty personnel to “execute the laws”; however, there is disagreement over whether this language may apply to troops used in an advisory, support, disaster response, or other homeland defense role, as opposed to domestic law enforcement.[1]
On March 10, 2009, members of the U.S. Army Military Police Corps from Fort Rucker were deployed to Samson, Alabama, in response to a shooting spree. Samson officials confirmed that the soldiers assisted in traffic control and securing the crime scene. The governor of Alabama did not request military assistance, nor did President Barack Obama authorize their deployment. Subsequent investigation found that the Posse Comitatus Act was violated and several military members received “administrative actions”.[22][23] "
You’re quoting things with footnotes but not linking the footnotes.
The Air Force isn’t executing the laws. Saying that it is semantics isn’t an argument that. All legal arguments are based on semantics.
The people in ICE custody were captured by ICE. ICE executed the laws. Once the people were identified as foreign nationals, by ICE, and determined to require deportation, by ICE, then they are transported, by ICE, to their country of origin.
The deportees are in ICE custody (see the ICE agents in the OP) until they’re in their country of origin where they are released, by ICE.
The Air Force simply operates the aircraft and provides all of the required logistics to do so.
This is no different than ICE using Delta to return people to their country. It would be silly to say that Delta has become a law enforcement organization because ICE purchased tickets to transport people to their country of origin.
You’re quoting things with footnotes but not linking the footnotes.
And…? So you have a logical retort, or lack the ability to use google?
The Air Force isn’t executing the laws. Saying that it is semantics isn’t an argument that.
And you don’t have the authority to make that claim. Nor are you providing any evidence to support your claim.
The people in ICE custody were captured by ICE. ICE executed the laws. Once the people were identified as foreign nationals, by ICE, and determined to require deportation, by ICE, then they are transported, by ICE, to their country of origin.
Ice doesn’t have the physical ability to transport people to their country of origin.
The Air Force simply operates the aircraft and provides all of the required logistics to do so.
And military members have been sanctioned for support roles under the act in the past.
This is no different than ICE using Delta to return people to their country.
Except Delta is a private company and has the ability to not comply.
The burden of proof (Latin: onus probandi, shortened from Onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit, non ei qui negat – the burden of proof lies with the one who speaks, not the one who denies) is the obligation on a party in a dispute to provide sufficient warrant for its position.
It is not my responsibility to support your argument by trying to find the source of your quotes. That’s not how the burden of proof works.
Considering that your position is that this is a violation of Posse Comitatus including a quote that says “there is disagreement over whether this language may apply to troops used in an advisory, support, disaster response, or other homeland defense role, as opposed to domestic law enforcement.[1]” seems to contradict your own argument.
The Air Force is under the command of the Commander in Chief and so they are required to comply with lawful orders.
Providing transportation for other federal agencies is a lawful use of military equipment under 10 U.S. Code § 2642(a)(3):
(a) Authority.—Subject to subsection (b), the Secretary of Defense may authorize the use of the Department of Defense reimbursement rate for military transportation services provided by a component of the Department of Defense as follows:
[…]
(3) For military transportation services provided to any element of the Federal Government outside the Department of Defense in circumstances other than those specified in paragraphs (1) and (2), but only if the Secretary of Defense determines that the provision of such services will promote the improved use of transportation capacity without any negative effect on the national security objectives or the national security interests contained within the United States commercial transportation industry.
So, as long as the Secretary of Defense approves of the flights, then it is legal for the Air Force to provide military transportation services to any element of the Federal Government outside the Department of Defense. ICE is an element of the Federal Government outside the Department of Defense and so the use of Air Force equipment to provide transportation for ICE is legal under 10 U.S. Code § 2642(a)(3).
That clause very much seems to be written under expectation of moving personnel or equipment. Prisoner transport (not to mention prisoner management even were they stationary) very much crosses the line between “police and military” that is often warned against in government function.
They’re not prisoners, they’re not charged with a crime.
They’re in the US without the legal authority to be in the US. Despite the drumbeat from the right calling them ‘Illegals’, they’re not criminals… they simply are not allowed to be here (due to not having a visa) and so they’re being returned to their country of origin. This is how immigration enforcement has been done for centuries in the US.
The major difference now is that Trump is treating undocumented immigrants as if they’re a national security threat and allocating a large amount of resources to deporting these people. Obviously, this is massively damaging to the US as the lax enforcement over the decades has shifted our workforce so that much of our domestic farming and food production is done by immigrants, often without documentation. His motivations seem to be to play to the racism in his base and the damage that this enforcement action causes to families is reprehensible and disgusting.
But, in the end, this is the same means immigration enforcement that we’ve been using in the US for as long as any of us has been alive. The only difference is the scale and motivation.
The Air Force isn’t doing anything illegal and protecting Airmen from retaliation is well within the mission scope of the Air Force. The OP isn’t basing their arguments on reality. They’re attempting to frame the removing of name and unit patches as something sinister to people who are ignorant of how these things work.
You don’t want to have a bunch of people who’re angry and could potentially be vengeful to have your name and other identifying information. It’s as simple as that.
They’re not prisoners, they’re not charged with a crime.
You fucking moron… Anyone being held against their will is a prisoner.
Illegal Entry”/8 U.S.C. § 1325 makes it a crime to unlawfully enter the United States. It applies to people who do not enter with proper inspection at a port of entry, such as those who enter between ports of entry, avoid examination or inspection, or who make false statements while entering or attempting to enter. A first offense is a misdemeanor punishable by a fine, up to six months in prison, or both.
The burden of proof (Latin: onus probandi, shortened from Onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit, non ei qui negat – the burden of proof lies with the one who speaks, not the one who denies) is the obligation on a party in a dispute to provide sufficient warrant for its position.
Lol, yeah… And I am denying your and the administrations claim that this is a legal use of the US military. I’m not making an affirmation as I have no power to order the US military to do anything.
Providing transportation for other federal agencies is a lawful use of military equipment under 10 U.S. Code § 2642(a)(3):
Ahh yes, they’re only transporting ice agents right … It’s not like there are civilians on the plane who may or may not have been given due process.
The problem is that you don’t even consider the cargo humans.
Ahh yes, they’re only transporting ice agents right … It’s not like there are civilians on the plane who may or may not have been given due process.
Moving the goal posts, yet again.
If ICE is violating due process, that is for the courts to decide and issue sanctions. That hasn’t happened, as of this comment, there is nothing about these flights that are illegal.
ICE requests transport and the military provides it under 10USC2642. That makes the Air Force’s transportation legal which is what the entire post is about.
The problem is that you don’t even consider the cargo humans.
🙄
Ah yes, ad hominem. Nothing says ‘I have run out of arguments’ like name-calling. I’m blocking you now.
Moving the goal posts, yet again. Ah yes, ad hominem.
Btw, attempting to frame everything as a logical fallacy isn’t a fucking harry potter spell that automatically wins an argument. For it to be considered an actual logical fallacy the claim has to be logically flawed.
Meaning that for me to “attempt to move the goal post” means that my argument needs to shift in an illogical way as a way to confuse or obscure the original intent. If the argument adds or further expands the original claim then it’s just adding to the body of evidence.
An ad hominem isn’t just calling someone a bad name, it’s an argument based on calling someone a bad name. As in don’t listen to this guy, he’s an idiot. I’m just calling you an idiot because I think you have reddit brain and it’s upsetting.
A rebuttal isn’t a logical fallacy you dolt. They just aren’t transporting federal agents they are transporting prisoners, which the military isn’t allowed to do.
That’s a semantic dispute, and service members have received sanctions for even support roles that are not directly excluded in the act .
"The Posse Comitatus Act prohibits using active duty personnel to “execute the laws”; however, there is disagreement over whether this language may apply to troops used in an advisory, support, disaster response, or other homeland defense role, as opposed to domestic law enforcement.[1]
On March 10, 2009, members of the U.S. Army Military Police Corps from Fort Rucker were deployed to Samson, Alabama, in response to a shooting spree. Samson officials confirmed that the soldiers assisted in traffic control and securing the crime scene. The governor of Alabama did not request military assistance, nor did President Barack Obama authorize their deployment. Subsequent investigation found that the Posse Comitatus Act was violated and several military members received “administrative actions”.[22][23] "
You’re quoting things with footnotes but not linking the footnotes.
The Air Force isn’t executing the laws. Saying that it is semantics isn’t an argument that. All legal arguments are based on semantics.
The people in ICE custody were captured by ICE. ICE executed the laws. Once the people were identified as foreign nationals, by ICE, and determined to require deportation, by ICE, then they are transported, by ICE, to their country of origin.
The deportees are in ICE custody (see the ICE agents in the OP) until they’re in their country of origin where they are released, by ICE.
The Air Force simply operates the aircraft and provides all of the required logistics to do so.
This is no different than ICE using Delta to return people to their country. It would be silly to say that Delta has become a law enforcement organization because ICE purchased tickets to transport people to their country of origin.
And…? So you have a logical retort, or lack the ability to use google?
And you don’t have the authority to make that claim. Nor are you providing any evidence to support your claim.
Ice doesn’t have the physical ability to transport people to their country of origin.
And military members have been sanctioned for support roles under the act in the past.
Except Delta is a private company and has the ability to not comply.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(philosophy)
It is not my responsibility to support your argument by trying to find the source of your quotes. That’s not how the burden of proof works.
Considering that your position is that this is a violation of Posse Comitatus including a quote that says “there is disagreement over whether this language may apply to troops used in an advisory, support, disaster response, or other homeland defense role, as opposed to domestic law enforcement.[1]” seems to contradict your own argument.
The Air Force is under the command of the Commander in Chief and so they are required to comply with lawful orders.
Providing transportation for other federal agencies is a lawful use of military equipment under 10 U.S. Code § 2642(a)(3):
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/2642
So, as long as the Secretary of Defense approves of the flights, then it is legal for the Air Force to provide military transportation services to any element of the Federal Government outside the Department of Defense. ICE is an element of the Federal Government outside the Department of Defense and so the use of Air Force equipment to provide transportation for ICE is legal under 10 U.S. Code § 2642(a)(3).
That clause very much seems to be written under expectation of moving personnel or equipment. Prisoner transport (not to mention prisoner management even were they stationary) very much crosses the line between “police and military” that is often warned against in government function.
They’re not prisoners, they’re not charged with a crime.
They’re in the US without the legal authority to be in the US. Despite the drumbeat from the right calling them ‘Illegals’, they’re not criminals… they simply are not allowed to be here (due to not having a visa) and so they’re being returned to their country of origin. This is how immigration enforcement has been done for centuries in the US.
The major difference now is that Trump is treating undocumented immigrants as if they’re a national security threat and allocating a large amount of resources to deporting these people. Obviously, this is massively damaging to the US as the lax enforcement over the decades has shifted our workforce so that much of our domestic farming and food production is done by immigrants, often without documentation. His motivations seem to be to play to the racism in his base and the damage that this enforcement action causes to families is reprehensible and disgusting.
But, in the end, this is the same means immigration enforcement that we’ve been using in the US for as long as any of us has been alive. The only difference is the scale and motivation.
The Air Force isn’t doing anything illegal and protecting Airmen from retaliation is well within the mission scope of the Air Force. The OP isn’t basing their arguments on reality. They’re attempting to frame the removing of name and unit patches as something sinister to people who are ignorant of how these things work.
You don’t want to have a bunch of people who’re angry and could potentially be vengeful to have your name and other identifying information. It’s as simple as that.
You fucking moron… Anyone being held against their will is a prisoner.
Their issue is they don’t even realize they are transporting human beings with innate rights, they just equate them as equipment.
Lol, yeah… And I am denying your and the administrations claim that this is a legal use of the US military. I’m not making an affirmation as I have no power to order the US military to do anything.
Ahh yes, they’re only transporting ice agents right … It’s not like there are civilians on the plane who may or may not have been given due process.
The problem is that you don’t even consider the cargo humans.
Moving the goal posts, yet again.
If ICE is violating due process, that is for the courts to decide and issue sanctions. That hasn’t happened, as of this comment, there is nothing about these flights that are illegal.
ICE requests transport and the military provides it under 10USC2642. That makes the Air Force’s transportation legal which is what the entire post is about.
🙄
Ah yes, ad hominem. Nothing says ‘I have run out of arguments’ like name-calling. I’m blocking you now.
Btw, attempting to frame everything as a logical fallacy isn’t a fucking harry potter spell that automatically wins an argument. For it to be considered an actual logical fallacy the claim has to be logically flawed.
Meaning that for me to “attempt to move the goal post” means that my argument needs to shift in an illogical way as a way to confuse or obscure the original intent. If the argument adds or further expands the original claim then it’s just adding to the body of evidence.
An ad hominem isn’t just calling someone a bad name, it’s an argument based on calling someone a bad name. As in don’t listen to this guy, he’s an idiot. I’m just calling you an idiot because I think you have reddit brain and it’s upsetting.
A rebuttal isn’t a logical fallacy you dolt. They just aren’t transporting federal agents they are transporting prisoners, which the military isn’t allowed to do.