I don’t necessarily disagree with you I just dont think its a message that helps us or gets people on our side. “Your food stamps come from the plundering of the third world” might be technically true (I guess, I think its more clawing back a bit of the plunder that would otherwise just sit in some billionaire’s bank account in a tax haven) but if you tell someone that who needs that shit to live you’re pretty effectively driving them away and I think is incredibly misguided to call that a selfish impulse. I definitly think western Marxists should advocate for social programs like the other reply to this said, but I also think western Marxists should focus heavily on mutual aid that feeds people in ways that dont rely on the government as well.

I get probably twice as much in snap every month as I actually need to survive

Me too but its not true for most people on snap, particularly poor families. And partially this is only true because of the state I live in. If I was on what the feds give only it would be significantly less the case. Saying this strikes me as welfare queen rhetoric that I dont think we should be engaging in. Also I only have so much extra snap because i’m not able to spend it on hot meals lol. Also I was running out of Snap fairly quickly before the Covid bonus.

I agree that the only reason we get this stuff is to make us complacent. But whenever anyone suggests that maybe Americans would be more revolutationairy if they didnt have these things I just think “how is someone supposed to do revolution if they’re starving?” I think of hierarchy of need pyramids here. I don’t think its impossible to agitate people on welfare, considering I’m a communist on welfare.

Plus every time this comes up I just tihnk of the guy on the old sub who told me that disabled people on welfare have different class interests that the working class, and cant be comrades. That pissed me off so much.

we’re exceptionally lucky to benefit as much from empire as we do

Yes we are, but it its ignorance to expect people to think of that first when their own survival is on the line. And I think its bad messaging. Like maybe we can say it to people who are already at an advanced level but even here, now, there is an instinctual side of me that feels pushed away and uncared for by the narrative. Higher level thinking keeps me away from that but for a lot of people that wont be the case. I think we need to focus on what works here, where we are.

I think people are generally right to not give a shit what happens to americans. we obviously have a vested interest in our own survival but I wouldn’t blame anyone who’s unapologetic about wanting to bring down the american empire no matter how many american lives it costs.

I can understand having that impulse as an emotional response to the exploitation of empire. But I stand pretty solid in thinking that wanting working class people who do nothing but try to live the best lives they can under a hellish system deserve to die because of where they were born and just because they got lucky on the “where you are born” lottery to be misguided. Maybe I’m being a chauvinist idk. But I don’t think it really makes sense to say “you should align yourself with people who think your life is expendable”.

still, I don’t fully get your horrified reaction calling this kind of logic sociopathic or toxic.

I think saying “worse conditions for the disabled and other vulnerable people are better for creating revolution” is… ok I get it in a way because they’re saying “more suffering now for better results later”. And I know wanting revolution isnt a selfish cause. So maybe “sociopathic” is a bit far. But I think its fair as an emotional reaction for me to go “you wanting me to suffer more so I revolt sooner feels like you dont actually care about me, just see me as a tool, and that doesnt make me want to fight for your cause, also the more I suffer the less I am able to think about things like revolution so you’re wrong anyway.” I’m not going to abandon leftism over it but it does make me go “do my comrades really care about me?”. Like you outright said that some leftists may think of me as expendable. How am I supposed to feel about that?