TL;DR: old guy wants logs and more security in docker settings. Doesn’t want to deal with the modern world.
I’m on the sh.itjust.works lemmy instance. I don’t know how to reference another community thread so that it works for everyone, so my apologies for pointing at sh.itjust.works, but my thoughts here are inspired by https://sh.itjust.works/post/54990 and my attempts to set up a Lemmy server.
I’m old school. I’m in my mid-50’s. I was in academia as a student and then an employee from the mid-80’s through most of the 90’s. I’ve been in IT in the private sector since the late 90’s.
That means I was actively using irc and Usenet before http existed. I’ve managed publically facing mail and web servers in my job since the 90’s. I’ve run personal mail and web servers since the early 00’s. I even had a static HTML page that was the number one Google hit for an obscure financial search term for much of the 2000’s. The referer ip’s and search terms could probably have been mined for data.
On the work side, I’ve seen multiple email account compromises. (I’d note zero when it was on premise Lotus Notes. All of the compromises were after moving to O365. Those stopped for years once we moved to MFA, but this year we’ve seen two where the bad actors were able to MitM MFA. That said I don’t regret no longer supporting an on-prem Domino server: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Bk1dbsBWQ3k )
I’ve also seen a sophisticated vendor typo squatting email, combined with an internal email compromise cost us significant cash.
Other than email compromise, I’m not aware of any other intrusions. (There are two kinds of companies: those that know they’ve been hacked and those that don’t). I am friends with some IT people in a company where they were ransomwared. I still believe they have a tighter security stack than we do.
I’m paranoid about security because like Farmer’s I’ve seen a thing or two. We keep logs for a year, dumped into a SIEM that is designed to make it unlikely bad actors can get into it even if they take over A/D or VMWare. My home logging is less secure but still extensive. The idea is even if I’m hit, I hope I have the logs to help me understand how and how extensively.
I still have public websites at home, but they don’t contain any content that matters. The only traffic they see is attack attempts and indexers that will index them and then shove them down into oblivion. I’m fine with that.
I still run a mail server at home. It’s mostly used so all my unique email addresses (sh.itjust.works@foo.com) can get forwarded to my personal O365 instance. If I need to reply using a unique address, I use alpine in an ssh session.
Long prolog to explain my experience playing with a Lemmy instance this weekend. I’ve got an xcp-ng instance in the home lab and used it to get a Lemmy docker instance running. It’s not yet exposed to the outside world.
I’m new to docker. I’m new to Lemmy. I’m new to Nginx. (See the “old school” in the title.). At work and at home, I deal with Apache. I’ve got custom mod_rewrite rules and mod_security in place to deal with many attacks. I’m comfortable dealing with the tweaks on both for websites that break because of some rules.
I’ve tried putting an Apache proxy in front of my xcp-ng Lemmy instance, but it won’t work because Lemmy assumes an initial contact via http/1.1 with an http status code of 101 to push to http/2.0. Apache can proxy either but not both. And Lemmy isn’t happy of the initial connection is http/2.0.
I’m also uncomfortable with my lack of knowledge regarding Nginx. I don’t know how to recreate my mod_rewrite rules and I don’t think there’s an equivalent to mod_security.
Worse, I don’t see an easy way to retain docker logs. Yes, I can likely use volumes in a docker-compose.yml to retain them, but it’s far from clear what path that would be.
I know all of these are solveable concerns with some effort, but I suspect few put in that effort.
How do all of you who run containers in a home lab sleep at night knowing all that log data is ephemeral unless you take special effort? How do you sleep knowing the sample configs you are using in containers have little security built in?
I just want to point out that you don’t need to use neither Docker nor nginx to run Lemmy.
At the end of the day, the really required pieces are:
lemmy_serverbinary- Lemmy-ui
pict-rsbinary- PostgreSQL database
How you get those things to talk to each other is totally up to you. There’s nothing stopping you from just using Apache as a reverse proxy, for example.
One possible Dockerless setup is described here: https://join-lemmy.org/docs/en/administration/from_scratch.html. This should give you some idea of how it could be done.
I’m with you. Same vintage IT guy, self hosting similarly. I dunno. I throw a lot of stuff up on my xcp-ng box. Some is important. Some isn’t. I’m doing all manner of old-school firewall and perimeter security and not worrying a ton about logging in my containers. I guess I’m just fatalistic. If I get hacked to the point that I’m digging through logs to figure out what happened, I’m kinda fucked. So I focus more on backup and restore. Can I restore to a known good state? But I hear you. Kids these days with their containers and their pipelines and their devops. Back in my day…
Kids these days with their containers and their pipelines and their devops. Back in my day…
Don’t get me started about the internal devs at work. You’ve already got me triggered.
And, I can just imagine the posts they’re making about how the internal IT slows them down and causes issues with the development cycle.
How is it ephemeral? My Docker instance for Lemmy logs forever unless I manually clear the logs. My Caddy reverse proxy logs every request too. Both are stored to disk and I’m free to copy them out at any time. They’ll keep increasing in size until I decide to clear them.
They’re logged through the Docker engine, not the container. A malicious actor would require a sophisticated container breakout attack to even attempt to clear them. Those attacks are rare and highly publicized.
Alternatively, an attacker could try to find my real instance IP from behind Cloudflare (probably not going to happen), somehow bypass my provider’s firewall which only allows SSH from my home IP (my home is more likely to be broken into than that), and then somehow defeat SSH authentication on top of both of those (quantum computers aren’t quite there yet).
I’m having trouble seeing the risk you’re concerned about.
My concern is less the VM hosting the docker instance getting compromised but that Lemmy has an exploit and the Lemmy instance getting compromised. I’m quite certain that Lemmy is getting a closer look by the bad guys. You’ve had hundreds of instances spun up in a week, most that have done nothing more than follow an online example of how to spin up a Lemmy instance.
And, I was under the impression that the container and thus the logs were cleared when restarting or redeploying docker. If I’m wrong, I’m horribly embarrassed and will point at that “old school” in the title. I’ll also be doing some testing.
No worries! There’s always something new to learn.
Docker has different log drivers, and the one used by default in Docker Compose (which is recommended by Lemmy) is called
json-file, which logs to a file on the disk. Thelocaldriver is more commonly used by one-off Docker containers, and that one is ephemeral, although you could also usejson-filethere if you wanted.If Lemmy itself has an exploit, at the absolute maximum, my instance either has its content cleared, or maybe it gets used for spam. I don’t see a scenario where anything outside of my container can be touched, containers are pretty secure.
Any attack on Lemmy would also be extremely widespread, and a random person like me likely wouldn’t be a target regardless. But if I were, I’d just restore one of my regular backups.
In any case, there is nothing to be done if Lemmy does have a dormant zero day vulnerability - we either use it or we don’t. No one is going to set up enterprise grade WAFs to use this hobbyist federation software, and it would likely break federation regardless.
You’ve had hundreds of instances spun up in a week, most that have done nothing more than follow an online example of how to spin up a Lemmy instance.
That’s true, but relatively speaking, Docker is pretty secure. The configs they provide aren’t bad either. Lemmy is a simple frontend service and a simple set of microservices, pretty much as small of an attack surface as you can get.
And Lemmy is written in Rust - I would be extremely surprised to learn a Rust application has an undetected RCE. But again, even if it did, the damage is contained to Lemmy itself and its backing postgres database. If I wanted to do postmortem forensics, I still have my Docker + access logs, which would include every web request (and thus attack payload) my proxy has ever received.
As @ubergeek77@lemmy.ubergeek77.chat said, Docker has different log drivers. one of them is good old Syslog…
Put this in you
/etc/docker/daemon.json{ "log-driver": "syslog", "log-opts": { "syslog-address": "unixgram:///dev/log" }Perfect! Thanks.
Regarding your last question: I don’t expose any services directly to the Internet unless the functionality 100% requires that I do so.
I have a couple of tiers of mitigation at the network level - I drop the Spamhaus DROP list at the edge, I have crowdsec security engine on the docker host itself as the next layer, and I otherwise make sure that everything is current and patched.
I also use Cloudflare tunnels for cases where I need a service to be public (like, say, the Lemmy install I setup) but don’t really want to be exposing my personal IP to the world.
The end result is, basically, that I have a single nginx instance exposed on two virtual hosts, a single port for Plex, a single port for Wireguard and a (relatively) small attack surface that’s designed to have limited mitigation from bad networks, and reasonable response times to developing threats via crowdsec. And, then, there’s some internal VLAN separation between the docker host, the NAS, and other devices on the network that won’t prevent someone from hopping around if they get in, but will at least make it a little more effort and work required to figure out the network topology.
Nothing is ever “perfect security”, but this is enough to mitigate the non-stop endless bot and malware noise, though it’s only likely of limited use against someone who feels the need to personally target and attempt to compromise me, but honestly, that’s not really a threat I’m particularly concerned with.
I’m intrigued by the phrase “crowdsec security engine on the docker”. Yes, I can Google, but I’d appreciate a bit of comment on what that is and how involved the setup is.
https://www.crowdsec.net/product/crowdsec-security-engine is what I’m talking about.
It’s not the easiest setup ever, but their documentation is pretty straightforward and easy to follow.
This is running on the host OS I’m using as the docker host.
It basically inspects logs/traffic to determine if a request is malicious and blocks sources of malicious traffic in real-ish time. It’s also crowdsourced data so you can import data on attacks other people have seen.
Nice. I’ll definitely check it out.
Ha i can totally feel the pain. Its a lot to learn! I’ve personally gone the traefik route instead of nginx. It does a lot of the rewriting by itself just by attaching labels to docker instances, and there is excellent middlewares available for security measures, like oauth forwarding or modsecurity. You can write your own middleware too and it’s quite simple to do without having to interact with the full http session. As for logging, you can configure other logging drivers for docker. If you’re worried about them being too ephemeral, send them to syslog or journald. Or set up fluentd and store them in the cloud. What makes things less complicated these days i think is that we now have “small things doing few things very well” in services with all sorts of containers, you just have to glue them all together.
Why do you want to persist logs? It doesn’t ‘improve’ security.
It doesn’t stop you from being hacked, but if you are hacked, it helps you to understand how so you can defend against it. So, I agree it doesn’t improve security for your instance, but it can improve security for your future instances.
Yeah but if someone gains root access to your server, you’re pretty boned anyway.
Best bang for buck will be to harden the fuck out of the server. Fail2ban, UFW, SSH keys only.
Agreed on all counts. Of course none of that exists on the on the Lemmy docker instance.
None of them are much use on the Lemmy container because it only exposes the ports required for it to work and it doesn’t have SSH. You would normally have SSH keys only and a firewall on the docker host. You could likely use something like crowdsec on the reverse-proxy logs to catch stuff.
My (short) take on this:
The whole fediverse lacks security right now compared to how email did in the 90s. This will only become a problem with mass adoption, again, like it did with email.
Good to start thinking about it early on, though.
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Philosophically I think the reason why things are “the way they are” these days, is because of a big push towards stateless compute.
So persistence is bad in this approach. That includes images, files, configs, secrets.
Thanks a lot, AWS!
