Well that sounds like more people need to bear arms.

I don’t want to hear anything from a hypocrite.

There are more eloquent ways to concede the argument.

But that doesn’t buy you tolerance in the society. That’s extra on a subscription basis

You mean the Democratic Party sat around and assumed they could further their own power grab because the American people had no choice but to vote for them. You mean the Democratic Party is currently sitting around doing nothing… wait, no—they are actively censuring their members who are talking truth to power. That’s much worse than if they did nothing at all.

If you’re going to blame someone, blame the ones responsible for fascism. Then blame the ones who gambled our future to further the agenda of their donors. The party knew they abandoned their progressive voter base. They miscalculated, and now they’ve doubled down. Fuck. Them.

I explicitly told you that the Democratic Party pushing neocon policies and pushing “vote blue no matter who” WOULD CAUSE VOTER APATHY. Voter apathy is a symptom, of direct democrat action. I told you I would vote for Harris—UNDER EXTREME DURESS.

What do you mean “the most left-leaning Dem platform in fucking decades”?

Fucking Bernie Sanders ran in 2016. Harris, against all reason and hope, stated directly that she would not change Democratic policy—the same policy that has ratcheted us to the right for decades. Biden, in his time as president, failed to achieve anything when he specifically had the windows to do it. So no. That is an outright lie.

Wait, are you talking about both sides as in the political parties, or both sides as in far left and ‘centrist’ secret nazi?

Still sick of this blaming apathetic voters for the clear failure of the Democratic Party. You had mentioned that harm mitigation trumps all moral consideration of choice. That’s short term thinking, one that has gotten us in this mess. If democrats want to play chicken putting ‘their’ progressive voting base against their neoconservative principles, that is a failure on them. Their actions after losing further prove their deficit. I warned you specifically during the election what the outcome would be because of how the democrats acted.

So… Who Framed Roger Rabbit?

The book not the movie.

That is explicitly the dnc’s fault

This is bullshit. If they actually wanted these things we would have had them. When we almost start to achieve these, they vote against it. Seems to me they like to talk about it during election season, Then vote in past republican policies. That’s not a progressive platform.

Sadly that choice was made by those in power, and so was the cost. And we are already there when it comes to that harm. Harm mitigation is not helpful if the root causes creating it is not dealt with, its just a losing battle forever. The first step is to regain progressive pressure from the democrats. They must be made to blink, and to that end, this blaming of non voters for the crimes of the Democratic Party must be stopped and dismantled where ever it is found. The sooner the better, The hope is that we get a shift early in order to rally before the next elections. I am doubting democracy will last under a second term but if the democrats field another neocon candidate, the party will fracture.

Sadly i see it as my only legal move. So i am compelled to take it even if risky. Part of that is taking heat off the narrative that non voters are to blame for the democratic loss. Not only that it’s unfair, but it should be socially acceptable the vote in a manner that represents your interests.

I already acknowledge that possibility with that whole ‘cutting my nose off the save my self’ analogy. The problem is i am looking over the long term. What i see is a history of vote blue no matter who being the rallying cry of neocons who are advocating in resisting progressive policy, and promoting historic republicans policies. That under the current leadership we continue to ratchet right. If this pattern persists the situation will get worse. This requires a change as far as i am concerned. So i May conditionally vote Democrat when i find a candidate i can trust, that is a conditional.

If you are a pragmatist, then you must see that the current pattern of damage mitigation has ratcheted us into a worse and worse position. Before the last election “now is not the time! We can talk about reform after we stop trump” and i with great discomfort obliged. Well now it’s time, as apparently we are never going to move on from blaming the scape-goat and also full on refuse to acknowledge the democrats fault. If There will never be an appropriate time to deal with the duplicitous party, then it might as well as be now.

A pragmatist should see the end of the path this leads to and change accordingly knowing that the pragmatic approach means possible pain involved. To me voting blue no matter who is surrendering decision making with the hope that against all evidence the Democratic Party will change once they get everything they want. That to me seems to be an idealist.

And i usually prefer progressive policies over lip service. It’s unfortunate that Democratic leadership chose their position. I am not cutting off my nose to spite my face, i am cutting off my nose to save my person. Seems my nose was destined to come off regardless.

My pitch if you had been watching, and my whole reason for being here in the first place was the comment that, 100 days into a trump presidency still blames the large group of progressive disenfranchised voters for the fall of democracy. These voters are not agents of political power beyond who they vote for. If they did not vote for democrats, that is because of a deficiency in the democratic platform. The democrats do not get to be a progressive platform by default because they are the party of damage mitigation. They are by all intense and purposes, a right wing political party who’s demonstrated position is on passing conservatives policies that are more temperate then the republicans. they post lip service to progressive values when it comes time to vote, and then is thrown away when it comes time to act.

They want my vote, they can act like it.

If i do it’s my right. Don’t like it? I don’t care. But i will most likely vote independent for someone i trust to push progressive policy.

People usually learn not to touch the stove when they get burned. The democrats have a large segment of voter apathy and disillusionment. They caused this, and we all got burned. So let’s see if they continue to burn themselves. If anything it seems to me that the Democratic Party is being passive to trumps actions because they are playing chicken with progressive voters. It puts the neocon on the ballot or else it gets the trump again. But the stance of damage mitigation is a short term and short sighted goal that sacrifices the future direction of governance. My vote so far is my right, don’t like my vote? Though.

Doing ‘nothing’ Is a stragetic choice. And i didn’t say i wasn’t going to vote i said i was not going to vote blue no matter who. I will not vote for neoconservatism. Period. I did that last election, and was rewarded with democratic lack of action and their talk of further relinquishing of progressive ideals to correct their stagnant voter problem that they caused.

My leverage is my vote and they can not just have it. No party deserves my loyalty. And if i can’t trust the democrats to fight a tyrant when it’s needed then i can’t trust them to not be one when they have power. With out pressure they have no onus to change and this is my one tool to get that change.

If you were unwilling to debate you should have just said so to your self and and remained silent.

Thats dishonest and you know it. I want progressive change. I know the path to it is blocked by both political parties. And so my actions must be to address this. The first step is to change the party most likely to do so. My avenues to do that are very limited. And so my only leverage to direct a change is with my vote. There is no punishing anyone, if you are upset at this calculated choice, then take that up with the agent that made the calculated choice to abandon the progressive vote.