Why is there such a disparity between techniques used in formal language classes versus those recommended in online communities?
For example, I’ve recently started tutoring ESL at my library (I have no credentials, this is just volunteer work), and the program runners have stressed repeatedly how important it is for learners to speak, and to start speaking early. I can see why this is practical: at least in the United States, it’s very difficult to communicate with anyone if you don’t speak English. So even a few memorized “tourist” phrases can help a lot.
But in the long-term, this seems to run contrary to what I’ve seen different online communities talk about- be it Refold, Steve Kaufman, Steve Krashner, Dreaming Spanish, etc. Most online communities seem to stress immersion and natural methods, prioritizing input/comprehension over output/speaking. Some of these folks even say that you shouldn’t talk at all in L2 until you reach a certain point (though others say that it doesn’t matter).
Is this a genuine difference in language-learning philosophy, or are the needs of “practical” learners just different than “hobbyist” learners?
Hello Syrup, welcome! That’s a very good question. Take my answer with a grain of salt as it’s not a method that suits everyone. I think it mostly comes down to what you want to get out of it. There are a bunch of methods and paths out there. This is just one of them. Some hobbyists also want to speak straight away and that’s okay if that’s what they would like to do. One of the examples that has been specifically brought up for speaking fast is Fluent in 3 Months by Benny Lewis, there are probably more out there too. Some intensive immersion based classroom courses include speaking and the speakers seems pretty fluent. Speaking sooner does help you when you are in survival situations like living in the country or visiting a country where your target language is used.
There’s a lot of confusion because the refold roadmap has changed over time but there are still videos and other sources of information out there with older information. It’s not as hardcore as AJATT or MIA, it tends to focus on consistency over time in a way that is sustainable. You start with a very small but achievable amount of time everyday and then gradually over time you can choose to increase time spent with the language. Some people are happy with just doing 15 minutes a day and other people are happy with 2-3 hours a day. I cannot verify it but I get the feeling that Steve Kaufman spends a little bit of a little bit of time per day as well.
When I went on the refold course people asked things similar questions, including myself and this is how I learned about the updates to their roadmap. I went on this course to make sense out of it all because being told,”just immerse bro”, was never helpful to me because it was never specific enough. There were some people who were taking traditional classes where you are expected to speak but they were using the refold method to reinforce their learning of vocabulary and grammar. With language learning, things don’t have to be super rigid so you can mix and match what methods and resources you would like to use.
You’re encouraged to study the phonetics of your language but if you are learning a language that is very different than your own (e.g. an English speaker learning Mandarin) then you’re encouraged to study it more frequently. When I learn new things, sometimes I get words and phrases stuck in my head and feel compelled to say them and practice the self-talk technique, I was told that it’s quite natural and it’s okay because often it’s something you’ve learned.
I asked what counts as output and what I was told Is that it’s when you freestyle and make things up on the fly (and I’m paraphrasing here). So in this case using tourist phrases wouldn’t count because you didn’t make it up yourself and so they’ll probably be grammatically correct. I’m not in the speaking stage yet but I don’t always follow it to the letter. Personally do shadowing infrequently but I read aloud with feedback from a tutor, a native speaker or I’ll do it alone. Sometimes I do self-talk with phrases, grammar patterns or chunks I have learned. I’m not as worried about sounding foreign because I am foreign, but for the people who are worried about that, there’s no pressure to speak. I do find that these speaking techniques are helpful for me because I get very anxious or shy speaking to people I don’t know but not everyone has that problem. My silly little noggin can go completely blank when I get nervous even when speaking in my native language.
From what I understand, in a conversation when you listen to someone else, you are practicing your listening comprehension skills but when it’s your turn to speak you’re using a form of active recall drawing from what you know to create a message you wish to convey. I think this is why people who speak from day one do very well to in recall as recall is used to learn a lot of things.
All in all, I’m not someone who is following it to the letter because as more research comes out they update things to improve it, my processes are always being tweaked and I am learning what resources work best for me as I go along. I think it should be the same for other people, it’s good to find what works best for you. Right now., I have no deadline but I did also start off learning languages in a class at university where there were declines and very different goals. If you absolutely need to speak then speak.
Tl;Dr
Note: I’m sorry in advance if there are any mistakes or if something is not clear, I’m getting sleepy. Some people are hardcore purists about a method but sometimes you need to try new things to grow.
Also, I love that you volunteer for ESL, it’ll help a lot of people!
Thank you, this is a lot of good information! What counts as “efficient learning” seems a lot more fluid than I thought. I guess everyone is going to assume that their favorite method is the best, perhaps that’s why it seemed so polarized to me.
No worries there! While the focus here is refold and immersion based methods, I don’t think think I’d want to open a community with intolerance towards other learning methods if that’s what works for them. I would rather help someone figure out a way of including it if that’s what they want to do but if they think it’s not for them then that’s okay too. I think with every method, routine, technique or topic there’s some really diehard fans that you see and hear from the most.
Overtime things have become more moderate, you get out as much as you put into it for sure but you can still have a social life with this method and combine it with whatever suits you and your interests best.
I know you mentioned Dreaming Spanish and I think it’s is a great resource for listening practice but it sticks to the methodology of not reading until you have X amount of listening hours and not studying grammar at all, whereas Refold wants you to include reading time (with an audio source at first) into your study and they want you to put a little bit of time into grammar if you can manage it in order to speed up the process of understanding. It’s kind of interesting to see where these guys agree and disagree. :D