It has long been the case that American women are generally more liberal than American men. But among young Americans, this gender gap has widened into an enormous rift: According to recent Gallup polling, there is aĀ 30-point differencebetween the number of women age 18ā30 who self-identify as liberal and the number of men in that demographic who do the same.
Thatās largely because young women have gottenĀ muchĀ more liberal, while young men have stayed ideologically more consistentāor, according to other analyses, become more conservativeĀ and anti-feminist. (Of course, not every person identifies as a man or woman. But gender roles still play a big part in shaping our lives and politics, and in the context of this column, I am focusing mostly on the vastĀ majority of AmericansĀ who identify as one or the other.) Itās not happening just here either; the political divide between the sexes is a trend thatĀ researchers are observingĀ in some other countries too.
As a relatively young woman, I like being treated as an equal in a partnership, rather than as a utility in a relationship. Iād rather be alone than a grown adultās nanny. This is a wild idea to many young men who have trouble respecting women, but insist they are the most respectful to women because they hold the door open sometimes.
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Well when who you are is being directly attacked, of course itās going to radicalize you (Iām not using that word in a negative manner either). But look at at what is happening around reproductive rights from abortion, to birth control, to maternity leave, etc. These affect a core of a person and you have a large group of people saying āwe want to control this for youā.
My exact first thought. After decades of (uneven) improvement, womenās rights are globally taking a massive hit. No wonder women are becoming more left leaning.
Remember, remember the coming of ROEvember
Isnāt this the one that was shown to have biased data due to opt-in polling? Randomized polling shows less of a divide and more liberal views amongst young people. I canāt find it right now though
Modern feminism is evil af. If they wanna accomplish things without causing men to hate them, they need to rethink their strategy. Else, the internet will keep saying that women want the benefits of men but with the accountability of a child. /S
Canāt they go back to the first waves of feminism? That seemed less cringe
The problem with sarcastic right-wing rhetoric is that lots of people miss the sarcasm.
Even if the /s is there.
I am not even sure if the American right is the same right as in my third world country lol.
Terfs have poisoned the feminist name and cause. My tin foil hat says that it was an intentional act by fascist elites to infiltrate the movement to destroy it.
Is this the same Gallup poll from a few months ago that showed that compared to a few years ago all women are getting more right wing except for older women, and the opposite for men yet was framed as such that men were trending right when it clearly didnāt actually show that?
I canāt tell because this article is paywalled, but I suspect it is.
In the future, copy the URL for the article that you cannot read and paste it into https://12ft.io/ and presto, no more paywall. Try it now. Itās actually easier than whining about paywalls. Then you too will be able to meaningfully participate in the debate.
Wow thanks mate!
I ended up using archive.is and they donāt even link to Gallup poll in the article!
So instead I googled to find the poll I had already seen last month and guess whatās it was exactly as I already knew it was.
Wow, the information I already knew pointing out the only group of women becoming more Liberal are older women was as I said it was.
Gee golly look at that, the data is very different from the premise of the article like I had said in my original post.
Iām so glad I had your snarky arse fucking response to help me realise what I already knew.
Uhā¦ buddy? Every single one of those lines is trending up.
You need some glasses there buddy? Clearly only the dotted light blue line is going up lately, with everyone else decreasing the last few years.
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I think itās pretty straightforward why this happens - liberal politics as a hive mind talks to women, but it does not talk to men. Even this piece, look at the following quote.
Actor Johnny Depp sued his ex-wife Amber Heard after she wrote a #MeToo op-ed in the Washington Post; even though the piece didnāt name him, Depp argued that it was defamatory, and legions of his fans (including plenty of women) engaged in a monthslong campaign of vicious harassment, threats, and vilification of Heard and anyone who might stand up for her.
The one case where it was at mutual abuse by both parties, they talk about Depp abusing Heard, but not Heard abusing Depp. Thatās why there is a divide. The problem is framed as āviolence against womenā, instead of ādomestic violence against peopleā.
To be clear, modern society presents all people with new problems. But while generic problems like stagnating wages are being talked about as a generic issue, and womenās issues get space as at least a successful special interest issue, issues disproportionately affecting men donāt. This results in shitheads like Tate fleecing them and fucking up society at large as well.
Iām struggling to understand how you can take one section from examples theyāre giving of misogyny and extrapolate that itās a message emanating from āliberal politics as a hive mind.ā This is not an article describing Depp and Heardās relationship, this is an article describing the asymmetrical response of the public toward Depp vs toward Heard before any trial happened.
Oh thatās easy. Itās cuz theyāre a bad faith conservative.
Iām as left as they come, if youād like, look at my comment history. I just donāt like that there is this big culture war issue that repaints an abusers and rapists vs. decent, normal people issue into a men vs. women issue, thus dividing people and forcing a wide swathe of men who are simply being crushed by the system into the right where they will be fleeced and exploited.
But the trial has happened, and it turned out it was both of them that were shitty, and the article still doesnāt bring that up. It brings a very contentious case up as a way to drive engagement into a stupid gender war issue, and takes the side of one of the abusers instead of denouncing all abuse as bad. Thatās my issue.
And absolutely no recognition of the problem with the statement that most college students are women.
There are parity issues on both sides of the gender divide. Both can be recognized. Itās not a zero-sum game.
Women have for decades now outnumbered men on college campuses
This isnāt a problematic statement, itās a statement of fact. Thereās no value judgment or morality associated with this statement in this article
factual, yes - but I think the point being made here is that a larger percentage of males are not being exposed to the benefits of a more expansive early adult educational experience leading to a social and cultural disconnect.
Without explanation, it can be offensive. There is no value judgment in the sentence āblack people make up the vast majority of the US prison populationā either.
If you donāt explain why, one conclusion someone might have is women are ājust smarterā, and black people are ājust more criminally inclinedā.
Itās not a zero-sum game.
This is the big point that is missed by common discourse. The problem is that men have gender-specific issues too, and those are not even being acknowledged as even being valid. Domestic abuse against men doesnāt exist. The fact that homelessness or suicides affect men disproportionately, or that the alienation of people from each other affect men in different ways than women, is a taboo topic, because people feel it takes away from the focus on womenās rights, or worse, that men ādeserveā this as some kind of āreparationsā in kind for suffering.
These are absolutely not taboo topics. Iāve read a ton of media about these things. From where do you derive that theyāre ātaboo?ā
Look at the article being shared. It addresses the topic of men and women drifting off to different sides of the political spectrum, and all it addresses is why women tend to the left. It conveniently leaves out why men tend to the right. It even insinuates that itās because men are actually alright with supporting abusers, rapists and paedophiles while women are not. Same thing it does to the Depp-Heard case, they were both abusers, but it only mentions Depp as being one.
Iām not saying that people in general never talk about menās issues. Iām saying that the āliberal leftā does not have anything for men on its agenda, and is surprised that men are being left behind by its messaging.
This is an article about women becoming much more liberal, men staying ideologically the same and the implications of that. That you would think an article about women becoming more liberal needs to focus more on menās issues is itself a reflection of patriarchal thinking, whether or not thatās your intention. There are plenty of articles covering menās issues, like tons of articles. Why do you think men are entitled to more coverage in this article?
So when you talk about the āliberal left,ā what issues do you think they need to talk about more?
Why do you think men are entitled to more coverage in this article?
But men are covered in this article! It outlines a ton of problems affecting men, it just either does not follow up on the causes and solutions - because who cares, right? - or outright paints it as a political opportunity for women that disaffected men are less likely voters, or even blames men as a whole for the issue.
young men have stayed ideologically more consistentāor, according to other analyses, become more conservative and anti-feminist.
A cohort of profoundly misogynistic male influencers, one of whom is currently facing criminal charges in Romania for rape and human trafficking, rose to prominence and captured the attention of young men the world over.
Marriage is declining in the U.S. in part, at least anecdotally, because women, who can now ably provide for themselves, are refusing to pair up with misogynistic men who bring little to the table. This dynamic could leave a lot more single men out thereāmembers of a cohort who are more likely than their female counterparts to be unemployed, financially vulnerable, isolated, and lonely, which in turn can fuel anger and even violence. As young women grow more liberal and young men move right, heterosexual marriage may very well continue to decline, perhaps snowballing political, social, and economic divides.
work to bridge the divide (which, to be clear, would mean pressing men to be better and creating the conditions for both sexes to thrive)
Yeah, good job, the only way to fix this stupid gender war is āto press men to be betterā and pick themselves up by their bootstraps or something.
How do women bridge the divide with men who follow misogynist influencers? How is that even possible? With men who are antifeminist and want to take away our rights?
I disagree. The divide is not because we talk about āviolence against women.ā Violence against women is a sadly vastly bigger problem rooted in eons of misogyny. That does NOT take a damn thing away from men and nbs who are abused.
Maybe the left can do more to capture the minds of young men, but how? Conservatism plays at peopleās base instincts, fear and ingrained culture. Itās easier to avoid the cognitive dissonance of recognizing that hey, toxic masculinity does kinda suck. Or perhaps that the social construct of women in the home rearing kids is demeaning and repressive and has nothing to do with nature.
I think men have a lot of reflecting to do, and itās very hard to do that when itās uncomfortable and challenges you to think differently. Conservatism simply maintains the status quo which places men higher, and thatās a lot more convenient than introspection.
All this isnt to say that men arenāt being left behind when it comes to body positivity, mental health, etc. These are things that are vitally important for men too.
Also, I would avoid the Heard topic which is a beacon of misinformation and misogyny. I exclusively read negativity about Heard from news outlets and Reddit. It was like Depp was everyoneās best friend as they suddenly rushed to his defense against āfeminismā. Blegh.
Violence against women is a sadly vastly bigger problem rooted in eons of misogyny.
According to the CDC, more than one in three women (35.6 percent) and more than one in four men (28.5 percent) in the U.S. have experienced rape, physical violence, and/or stalking by an intimate partner in their lifetime.
So the proportion isnāt vastly bigger, only about 7%. Also men are much more likely to be the victims of violence generally.
And the proportion doesnāt matter either. All victims of violence deserve help and empathy. Otherwise, the argument is that āminority victims donāt matterā. LGBTQ folks also deserve help and support tailored to their needs, despite being a relative minority.
I agree with you on this entirely
Good point, however there is more to this situation than the raw numbers. Women are a minority and simply face a different kind of oppression and violence. I mean think about womenās health outcomes, anti-abortion legislation, etc. Plus, you can break those statistics down further.
By the time theyāre 17, 1/3 of women have experienced a rape or attempted rape, whereas the same is true for 1/4 of men.1/3rd of women rape victims experience it before age 17, whereas the same is true of 1/4 of male rape victims.In reality, only 2.6% of men reported ever being raped, which even accounting for underreporting utterly pales in comparison to 18% of women.
- āNearly 1 in 5 women (18.3%) and 1 in 71 men (1.4%) in the United States have been raped at some time in their lives, including completed forced penetration, attempted forced penetration, or alcohol/drug facilitated completed penetration.
Source: https://www.nsvrc.org/statistics
Regardless, just because one thing is maybe more prevalent than another doesnāt mean the other isnāt a problem. I do not mean to downplay violence in any form against anyone.
What I mean is focusing on violence against women isnāt inherently an issue, and I donāt think thatās what is driving young men toward conservatism. We can focus on more than one thing at once. I think that conservatism empowers young men, elevates them. It is the path of least resistance for most because men-on-top is ingrained deeply in our society. I think that young men are gravitating to the most attractive worldview presented to them, no matter how selfish and regressive it is because it feels right.
EDIT: I got the stats wrong.
Women are a minority
Are they? Last I checked, women were actually the majority across most of the world by a very slight edge, mostly because men die earlier since hard physical labour and wars disproportionately kill men.
By the time theyāre 17, 1/3 of women have experienced a rape or attempted rape, whereas the same is true for 1/4 of men. Regardless, just because one thing is maybe more prevalent than another doesnāt mean the other isnāt a problem.
Why bring it up then? Whatās the point?
and simply face a different kind of oppression and violence.
If they face a different kind of violence, that would imply men face a different kind of violence, too, right? If they are different from each other, that means both sexes need special attention on issues disproportionately affecting them, donāt they?
What I mean is focusing on violence against women isnāt inherently an issue, and I donāt think thatās what is driving young men toward conservatism.
The problem is not āfocusing on womenās issuesā. The problem is ānot focusing on menās issuesā.
Women are a social minority. Whites in South Africa who perpetuated the apartheid were the majority oppressing a minority, despite being vastly outnumbered. I am referring to sociological minorities, not statistical.
Why bring it up then? Whatās the point?
I edited my comment. The numbers are far more disparate than I initially misread. I only brought it up because weāre getting into specifics and I had to do some research. Women are indeed more affected by sexual violence. Whatās more, over 90% of sexual violence is perpetrated by men.
that means both sexes need special attention on issues disproportionately affecting them, donāt they?
Definitely.
The problem is not āfocusing on womenās issuesā. The problem is ānot focusing on menās issuesā.
This is fair, but it sounded to me like you were implying this was a zero sum game. We can do both.
My primary assertion is that conservatism (and figures like Tate) is attractive to young men because they reinforce what society has taught for their whole lives, and if not, then itās at least a power fantasy that places them in control, which is preferable to the alternative. Reality (which some refer to as āwokeismā or āleftismā) is not as tantalizing. Realizing that you as a man have implicit biases, privilege, and toxicity embedded deep within you requires a level of introspection and empathy that most young people do not possess.
I struggle to see how āthe leftā can capture the minds of young men in the same way when taking an objective view of reality.
Whatās more, over 90% of sexual violence is perpetrated by men.
This is such a problematic statistic to bring up. It means nothing to the victims and their needs, or how should we help them. It also doesnāt matter from a prevention point of view, since the vast majority of men are not rapists. It only serves to reframe the issue from āabusers against victimsā to āmen against womenā.
at least a power fantasy that places them in control, which is preferable to the alternative
What is that alternative, then? Thatās the problem, I do not see anyone proposing an alternative role to men in society.
I dont think it is problematic in itself. I am merely pointing out that my previous statements about the disparities between men and women were correct.
The mentality is certainly āabusers vs victims,ā but we cannot bury our heads in the sand and ignore the context. I.e. we must recognize that most rapists are men. Most rape victims are women. Why this is the case is important to examine if we are to improve things.
Why do men need a āroleā in society specifically? Is it the case that men simply feel aimless and this leads them to conservatism? To violence, even? I donāt know. I donāt think women go about feeling assured about their role in society which in turn makes them end up more liberal. Why would the inverse be true for men?
Again, this isnāt to say we donāt need support for young men or that they are never victimized. The only messages I can think of are: acknowledge and understand your privilege, act with empathy, emotions are important and should be discussed, etc. Way less sexy than shooting boar from a helicopter with a minigun or whatever it is menās role in society boils down to.
That does NOT take a damn thing away from men and nbs who are abused.
Thatās the point, it doesnāt. But popular discourse pretends that it does in the inverse, that talking about abused men somehow weakens womenās rights.
Maybe the left can do more to capture the minds of young men, but how?
As the culture war goes, the right tells men they get to become either a head of a happy family with a loving wife and kids who give meaning to your blood sweat and tears in your hard work, or they tell you that you get to become a hedonistic macho guy using and abusing all that male privilege.
What does the left tell you? For women, they have the āsuccessful single girlbossā trope to aspire to, or even the āhardworking single momā thing. As a man who is supposed to catch on to the liberal side of the culture war, what is my role in society?
Even the term ātoxic masculinityā sucks as a lot of people misunderstand it as āsocietal woes caused by menā, using it as a cudgel telling men that they are the cause for whatever way society sucks.
All this isnt to say that men arenāt being left behind when it comes to body positivity, mental health, etc. These are things that are vitally important for men too.
Look, thatās exactly the problem. It is only okay to help men as a byproduct of something that helps women. Just look at domestic violence again. Letās say that the rates at which men experience domestic violence as a victim is not underreported for various reasons. There are still men out there being victimized. Are there any shelters out there for men?
Also, I would avoid the Heard topic which is a beacon of misinformation and misogyny.
I didnāt bring it up, the article did. What I came away with was that both sides sucked they both are abusers, but a lot of media either only covers one side or the other, depending on what they want to say. My point is that they brought up the case, and they took a side, and they took the side of an abuser. If they took the opposite side, that would still be taking the side of an abuser.
What does the left tell you? For women, they have the āsuccessful single girlbossā trope to aspire to, or even the āhardworking single momā thing. As a man who is supposed to catch on to the liberal side of the culture war, what is my role in society?
I was watching a video about the phenomenon of men getting more conservative - which is happening globally - and one of the men who is doing a lot of work on improving it said that men can take on roles of caretakers and househusbands because those are possible now.
To me, that rings a bit hollow because for decades women have been struggling to get out of those roles because theyāre not respected by society regardless of who does them. Saying that men now have the option to take them on doesnāt feel like a solid argument.
They made a lot of interesting points and covered a lot of reasons why men and boys are falling behind, especially in education, but that part felt like he hadnāt thought it the whole way through.
Which is why some men are becoming āanti-feministā. Itās not that theyāre anti-women, itās that they are anti-āA movement that tells them they are the source of all problems and offers them no supportā. Why support a cause that openly tells you youāre the bad guy just for what private parts you have while simultaneously shouting that private parts are irrelevant and shouldnt be part of the conversation.
But nah, guys are just hateful and terrible. Keep up the divide š
Which is why some men are becoming āanti-feministā. Itās not that theyāre anti-women, itās that they are anti-āA movement that tells them they are the source of all problems and offers them no supportā.
I think the problem is more inherent in how America interprets liberalism. We donāt include things like class consciousness into liberal ideology, here itās all about addressing specific systemic inequalities between certain demographics.
When you define liberalism as only fixing these inequalities then of course a large population of men arenāt going to involve themselves, they donāt reap any benefit, theyāre not experiencing any systemic abuse.
However, if we accommodate socioeconomic realities of class into the equation, things start making a bit more sense. By protecting the most disadvantaged demographic in your class, you also strengthen your own interests.
I think itās important to keep in mind exactly who people are talking about when they make general criticism about men. If you arenāt participating in misogyny, then they really arenāt talking about you. They just arenāt vocalizing the division in class that separates us all from the reigns of power.
I think itās important to keep in mind exactly who people are talking about when they make general criticism about men. If you arenāt participating in misogyny, then they really arenāt talking about you.
Iām a leftist man and I hate that this phenomenon is considered acceptable. On one hand, a lot of women make criticisms of āmenā without further qualification, and even make fun of anyone who says ānot all menā, but then theyāll turn around and say āoh we didnāt mean you, just misogynistsā. Iām on the fence about even identifying as a man (as opposed to non-binary), and my political views generally very well aligned with feministsā, but nonetheless even I feel insulted, so I imagine a huge number of men feel much more insulted than I do.
How hard is it for critics of toxic masculinity to just say what they actually mean instead of saying a bunch of blatantly sexist things things and then claiming they meant something else when theyāre called on it? It has exactly the same energy as the āSchrodingerās douchebagā phenomenon, but in that case we see it as obviously disingenuous, but with criticisms of āmenā, weāre supposed to accept that women really donāt mean what they say.
Women who do this need to fucking stop, because theyāre draining enthusiasm from their male allies and driving recruitment for their enemies.
Edit: typo
You said so well what I have felt and expressed for so long. Itās really heartbreaking to feel like youāre a ālesser allyā. Thank you for taking the time to write this.
Thanks to the internet, j came to understand that to successfully fight off a modern feminazi you have to out-crazy them. Say something like āi identify as a cat, how dare youā then yowling and hissing like an angry cat until they leave you alone and in peace or something crazier.
How hard is it for critics of toxic masculinity to just say what they actually mean instead of saying a bunch of blatantly sexist things things and then claiming they meant something else when theyāre called on it?
Tbh, pretty difficult. At least for the vast majority of people. Putting together a comprehensive argument pertaining to socioeconomics or politics without it being full of internal contradictions is nearly impossible. Especially if your ideological framework isnāt accounting for things like class consciousness.
For example, you are complaining about the reductive reasoning that leads to people make a bunch of sexist claims. However, you yourself utilized reductive thinking to come to that conclusion.
How prevalent is this attitude among feminist? Is this a majority or minority opinion, and if it is a minority opinion, how impactful is it? If it is just a few people making a lot of noise, is it fair to really judge half the global population for it? It is essentially the same āSchrodingerās douchebagā you were speaking about.
Women who do this need to fucking stop, because theyāre draining enthusiasm from their male allies and driving recruitment for their enemies.
Is essentially the same as saying the men who are misogynist need to stop because they are draining enthusiasm from their female allies and driving recruitment for their enemies.
None of these are actual solutions to problems, they donāt even really identify a problem, itās just rhetoric.
However, you yourself utilized reductive thinking to come to that conclusion.
How so? Iām criticizing women who make blanket statements about men, and I was careful to make it clear that Iām taking about that subset of women, not women in general.
How prevalent is this attitude among feminist?
Itās prevalent enough that Iāve encountered it numerous times in my IRL social groups. Itās also prevalent enough that itās a common complaint from men.
Is essentially the same as saying the men who are misogynist need to stop because they are draining enthusiasm from their female allies and driving recruitment for their enemies.
They do need to stop. But I didnāt think itās an apples to apples comparison because misogyny is an internalized trait that goes way beyond rhetoric, and what Iām criticizing is a certain brand of feminist rhetoric, not feminism per se.
How so? Iām criticizing women who make blanket statements about men, and I was careful to make it clear that Iām taking about that subset of women, not women in general.
Idk, you said" a lot of women" and āI imagine a huge number of men feel much more insulted turn I doā, not exactly specific language.
prevalent enough that Iāve encountered it numerous times in my IRL social groups. Itās also prevalent enough that itās a common complaint from men.
Again, anecdotal evidence. I have not experienced this, but that doesnāt mean it doesnāt happen. Assuming that all societal discourse is reflection of your own experience is a product of reductive reasoning.
They do need to stop.
Right, but who are you making that request to? If a woman randomly yelled out to you that misogynist men needed to be cast out of society, what assumptions would you make? How different would it be if they just specified men, not misogynist men?
My point is that actual productive discourse requires context, nuance, and patience. That even if you are talking to a person who doesnāt utilize as precise language as you would like, it doesnāt automatically mean that their point is moot. Nor does it really mean they were unintentionally making a claim.
If someone is making a claim like āmen evilā and there is surrounding context that should lead you to believe that this is not a literal statement, like them having a boyfriend or being married to a manā¦isnāt saying ānot all menā pedantic? Or even worse, could be interpreted as you purposely misinterpreting the intent of the statement?
But I didnāt think itās an apples to apples comparison because misogyny is an internalized trait that goes way beyond rhetoric
Couldnāt your need for specified absolution be an example of internalized misanthropy? One could assume that people who do not self associate with accusations intended for misogynists, have no real need for this type of pedantic relief.
Again, my whole point that political discourse is exceedingly hard. And itās made even more difficult by someone forcing a pedantic dispute any time someone isnāt being specific enough for their taste.
All Iām really asking for is for people to say anything at all besides just āmenā when making complaints about certain men. It doesnāt need to be precise, just clear enough that itās obvious that all men arenāt the target of criticism. I met the same standard Iām asking for, so I donāt thing Iām being hypocritical or overly reductive. I donāt think itās too much to ask for people to use a qualifier like āmanyā when complaining about a specific subset of men.
And itās made even more difficult by someone forcing a pedantic dispute any time someone isnāt being specific enough for their taste.
Iām not doing that. Iām making my point in a thread thatās specifically about why feminism is often seen in a bad light. Where else could I possibly find a more appropriate venue for such a criticism?
That even if you are talking to a person who doesnāt utilize as precise language as you would like, it doesnāt automatically mean that their point is moot.
I never said it did. Iām saying it causes an emotional reaction that is extremely unhelpful for productive dialog.
Or even worse, could be interpreted as you purposely misinterpreting the intent of the statement?
I know better than to say ānot all menā. Youāre missing something critical: while I used myself as an example, my comment was not about me. Itās about all the men who see women talk that way and come away with the impression that feminism is hostile to them just because theyāre men. You donāt need to convince me of anything, and even if you did, convincing me would not solve the problem.
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