It’s almost like a country with more engineers and a larger workforce can build things faster. Most renewables can be set up in five weeks or so. We need development in both but five years is a while with a ticking clock.
I’m sorry. I think I’ve been overly hostile. We definitely can agree on the point that we need to walk and chew gum at the same time, so to speak.
We need to be busting out every tool at our disposal to slow down this global climate crisis. I’m just of the opinion that fear of nuclear power is vastly overblown, and this book is feeding into that fear. In a perfect world we’d be running entirely off true renewable energy. But we aren’t. We live in Hell. We need to pull out all the stops so we don’t make ourselves extinct.
Yeah it seems like you are arguing with the no nuclear under any circumstances libs and I’m arguing with the nuclear or bust ones. We need the silver buckshot and we need it now.
Yeah, the (online) left is weirdly “fuck yeah science!” on nuclear and the counterpart is still riding on the legacy of the 1980s anti-nuclear movement, opposing it under any circumstances.
I’m personally of the opinion nuclear should be phased out eventually, but coal, oil, gas and other minor fossil fueled energy has a way higher priority to go first.
It also matters little, because energy under capitalism is dependent on the infighting between factions of capital. Like the much-mocked German shutdown of nuclear power. Half opportunism to prevent the electoral rise of the green party and half gift to the mining corporation RWE. Had it not happened, it would be the firms dealing with nuclear power supply, etc. to profit. Nothing gets done without the bourgeois benefitting.
It would seem the problem is capital, not what policy to follow.
It also matters little, because energy under capitalism is dependent on the infighting between factions of capital. Like the much-mocked German shutdown of nuclear power. Half opportunism to prevent the electoral rise of the green party and half gift to the mining corporation RWE. Had it not happened, it would be the firms dealing with nuclear power supply, etc. to profit. Nothing gets done without the bourgeois benefitting.
I’ve been in the nuclear trenches a few times (on the pro-nuclear side, though there are very obviously drawbacks and limitations and by no means do I advocate for paving the world with nuclear power plants or whatever the strawman is nowadays) and I’ve come to realize that anti-nuclear sentiments aren’t fundamentally influenced by these well-thought-out arguments that anti-nuclear intellectuals and professionals have. It’s much more to do with their profitability and rate of return and investment cost than like, scientific arguments about the amount of uranium/thorium reserves, or potential for disasters, and so on.
As in, the nuclear debate online isn’t actually as relevant in the real world as it seems, and a lot of the displayed concern about Fukushima or Chernobyl happening again in government bodies isn’t actually the thing that is motivating them, it’s just good-old-fashioned capitalism and they’re dressing it up. If we’re talking environmental impacts, massive oil spills, while certainly widely known about and important points in the fossil fuel debate, haven’t really done much to dent fossil fuel production quite like how nuclear disasters affected nuclear energy’s reputation. And it takes a shitload of rare resources like cobalt and copper and lithium to create the renewables that would be required to get us to a fully renewable economy even if we assume energy consumption doesn’t keep rising over time. The cumulative effect of hundreds and thousands of mines and quarries on the environment (let alone workers) is gigantic, but they’re spread out enough (and often located in countries that the average person couldn’t place on a map, let alone care deeply about) that they don’t feature as heavily in the debate.
So basically I caution anybody who gets too lost in the sauce over the common issues that online debates are about because, while these things are extremely important, these aren’t actually the big reasons why capitalists aren’t investing heavily in them, so you’re kinda wasting your time (even under the assumption that internet debates are somehow productive). Do you think a capitalist gives a shit whether their nuclear power plant has some leakage that raises cancer rates in the surrounding area, so long as it makes a profit? We have to distinguish the discussion over these things versus the material reality.
It’s much more to do with their profitability and rate of return and investment cost
This is both correct and incorrect - correct because this is the reason why there is basically no private nuclear without generous capital financing from the state, long term purchase contracts at a high price and guaranteed access to uranium even if it requires undesirable actions (continued French colonialism, US imports of Russian fuel)
Incorrect because the western nuclear industry resembles more of the military industrial complex model of barely delivering something functional (if ever) for huge costs with overwhelming state financial support
Of course profitability and rate of return is very applicable to solar and wind (wind less so because it’s more capital intensive than a community pitching in for a small solar facility) and certainly a factor in the US imposing extreme tariffs
Weird how China can do it in five years, then.
It’s almost like a country with more engineers and a larger workforce can build things faster. Most renewables can be set up in five weeks or so. We need development in both but five years is a while with a ticking clock.
I’m sorry. I think I’ve been overly hostile. We definitely can agree on the point that we need to walk and chew gum at the same time, so to speak.
We need to be busting out every tool at our disposal to slow down this global climate crisis. I’m just of the opinion that fear of nuclear power is vastly overblown, and this book is feeding into that fear. In a perfect world we’d be running entirely off true renewable energy. But we aren’t. We live in Hell. We need to pull out all the stops so we don’t make ourselves extinct.
Yeah it seems like you are arguing with the no nuclear under any circumstances libs and I’m arguing with the nuclear or bust ones. We need the silver buckshot and we need it now.
Yeah, the (online) left is weirdly “fuck yeah science!” on nuclear and the counterpart is still riding on the legacy of the 1980s anti-nuclear movement, opposing it under any circumstances.
I’m personally of the opinion nuclear should be phased out eventually, but coal, oil, gas and other minor fossil fueled energy has a way higher priority to go first.
It also matters little, because energy under capitalism is dependent on the infighting between factions of capital. Like the much-mocked German shutdown of nuclear power. Half opportunism to prevent the electoral rise of the green party and half gift to the mining corporation RWE. Had it not happened, it would be the firms dealing with nuclear power supply, etc. to profit. Nothing gets done without the bourgeois benefitting.
It would seem the problem is capital, not what policy to follow.
I’ve been in the nuclear trenches a few times (on the pro-nuclear side, though there are very obviously drawbacks and limitations and by no means do I advocate for paving the world with nuclear power plants or whatever the strawman is nowadays) and I’ve come to realize that anti-nuclear sentiments aren’t fundamentally influenced by these well-thought-out arguments that anti-nuclear intellectuals and professionals have. It’s much more to do with their profitability and rate of return and investment cost than like, scientific arguments about the amount of uranium/thorium reserves, or potential for disasters, and so on.
As in, the nuclear debate online isn’t actually as relevant in the real world as it seems, and a lot of the displayed concern about Fukushima or Chernobyl happening again in government bodies isn’t actually the thing that is motivating them, it’s just good-old-fashioned capitalism and they’re dressing it up. If we’re talking environmental impacts, massive oil spills, while certainly widely known about and important points in the fossil fuel debate, haven’t really done much to dent fossil fuel production quite like how nuclear disasters affected nuclear energy’s reputation. And it takes a shitload of rare resources like cobalt and copper and lithium to create the renewables that would be required to get us to a fully renewable economy even if we assume energy consumption doesn’t keep rising over time. The cumulative effect of hundreds and thousands of mines and quarries on the environment (let alone workers) is gigantic, but they’re spread out enough (and often located in countries that the average person couldn’t place on a map, let alone care deeply about) that they don’t feature as heavily in the debate.
So basically I caution anybody who gets too lost in the sauce over the common issues that online debates are about because, while these things are extremely important, these aren’t actually the big reasons why capitalists aren’t investing heavily in them, so you’re kinda wasting your time (even under the assumption that internet debates are somehow productive). Do you think a capitalist gives a shit whether their nuclear power plant has some leakage that raises cancer rates in the surrounding area, so long as it makes a profit? We have to distinguish the discussion over these things versus the material reality.
GOOD post
This is both correct and incorrect - correct because this is the reason why there is basically no private nuclear without generous capital financing from the state, long term purchase contracts at a high price and guaranteed access to uranium even if it requires undesirable actions (continued French colonialism, US imports of Russian fuel)
Incorrect because the western nuclear industry resembles more of the military industrial complex model of barely delivering something functional (if ever) for huge costs with overwhelming state financial support
Of course profitability and rate of return is very applicable to solar and wind (wind less so because it’s more capital intensive than a community pitching in for a small solar facility) and certainly a factor in the US imposing extreme tariffs