They think they can maybe sway Harris/the dems in general. Not unreasonable, seeing as IIRC they stand to potentially lose Michigan due to its (relatively) large muslim community which will likely have reduced turnout if her policies stay the same.
There is no convincing Trump or the repubs. Their voter base LOVES genocide. The only people who aren’t onboard are some of the more extreme neo-nazis, who only disagree because they hate jews (I note here that Israel is not representative of all jews, and to claim so is anti-semitic, but these are neo-nazis) more than they hate muslims.
Edit: Oh okay. You think these protestors can stop Harris from funding Israel. But any leftist who points out how pointless it is to convince neoliberals to not do neoliberal things is… a neoliberal?
I know this is exceedingly hard for liberals to understand as the only thing they stand for is a status quo where they aren’t challenged to think about anything beyond their order on the brunch menu, but there are many living, breathing, thinking human beings who are opposed to genocides and wish to see them stopped even if it’s being executed and/or funded by the country they live in.
Oh no I don’t because the existence of the American state itself (and its middle eastern colony Israel) is the actual issue, but you’ll never see me getting upset at people attempting to stop a genocide even if I think the likelihood of their tactics succeeding is low because they, like me, are opposed to genocide.
That said their tactics are heightening the domestic contradictions in the US and drawing increased scrutiny and contributing towards real economic damage to Israel and any actions that lead to further destabilization of that country are exclusively good things so that it isn’t able to sustain its global and decades-long campaign of terror on the world.
So what do you propose? You’re sitting here attacking other people because they don’t agree with fucking genocide and treating their protest as a non-issue in the grand scheme of things.
Don’t think of it from a harm-reduction mindset. If YOU don’t vote for somebody against genocide, then YOU lose to Trump. It’s not on us for having a sense of what is right/wrong in the world.
I didn’t say genocide was on you. Who here has said that??
And why shouldn’t people view this in terms of harm reduction? The women in my life are scared shitless about a federal abortion ban, meanwhile so many leftist men I know completely ignore the abortion side of things and would sooner drape themselves in the Palestinian flag.
The women in my life are scared shitless about a federal abortion ban
so many leftist men I know completely ignore the abortion side of things and would sooner drape themselves in the Palestinian flag.
Hang on a second, if you’re going to talk about the victims of the abortion ban, then it’s only logically consistent to talk about the Palestinians being genocided, or the Palestinians whose families have bombs dropping on them. Comparing the victims of the abortion ban with not the victims of the genocide, but the people protesting it is being entirely deceptive.
So tell me, what of the Palestinians who have bombs dropping on them or on their families in Gaza; do you think they’re not scared shitless? Do you think they’re less scared than the women in your life?
What that individual is trying to say, but is too much of a coward to say it with their chest, is: The loss of life of a Palestinian is less concerning to me than the pain a white woman might endure.
The protestors want to pressure Harris/the dems so that they stop providing unlimited aid to Israel’s ongoing genocide. Do you think that cutting aid to Israel would cost the dems more electorally than wholeheartedly enabling the genocide would?
Is there anything Kamala or Biden could do you would consider a valid reason not to vote for either of them? If Biden literally shot a Palestinian child in the face on stage, would that do it? What about SAing a Palestinian?
I ask because realistically speaking doing these would lose the Dems the election, and yet the genocide is exactly this except in the thousands. You’d never expect people to vote for either of these people if they publicly did something heinous, and yet the genocide is exactly something heinous, just not as in your face as the president doing it on stage.
Of course there is. If Harris shot a child and Trump said he’d shoot 10 children, who would you rather deal with? Or is that a hard choice you’d rather not make by avoiding voting?
It’s like women’s rights in relation to abortion. The vast majority of leftist men who seemingly don’t care if a Trump admin results in a federal ban, and would rather spend their energy convincing themselves that they can dissuade Dems from supporting Israel.
Fix what you can but don’t delude yourself into thinking you can fix what you can’t, and then berate others for not partaking in your Sisyphean tasks.
If Harris shot a child and Trump said he’d shoot 10 children, who would you rather deal with?
Then I wouldn’t vote for either of them as I would not want to have “child murder” become something trivial that the Dems feel they can get away with. I would not want a child murderer to be legitimised and approved by way of my vote. This also isn’t an answer to the question, which you are attempting to evade.
The vast majority of leftist men who seemingly don’t care if a Trump admin results in a federal ban, and would rather spend their energy convincing themselves that they can dissuade Dems from supporting Israel.
If you’re trying to make a comparison like this, then you have to compare the causes and the victims, not some made-up guy you’re mad at.
Fix what you can.
You are delusional if you believe you are fixing anything by trivialising genocide as a political cause. Letting this slide isn’t some minor policy issue and you’re both deranged and immensely stupid to think that it is.
berate others for not partaking in your Sisyphean tasks.
That is quite literally what you are doing right now
If Harris shot a child and Trump said he’d shoot 10 children
Are you being deceptive on purpose or did you just misunderstand my question?
I didn’t ask if Harris shot a child and Trump promised to shoot 10/more who would you rather deal with, I asked if Kamala simply shot a child, would that be enough for you not to vote for her? Literally, right now, you switch on the news and see every channel telling you Kamala just shot a Palestinian child in the face and you see the video of it, meanwhile Trump is making zero claims about shooting any children; do you still vote for her? To reiterate my question: Is there anything Kamala or Biden could do you would consider a valid reason not to vote for either of them?
The point of the question is that you and I both know she’d lose either every Dem voter or the vast majority of them, meanwhile an actual genocide is taking place where many, many more are dying and the same people who’d stop voting for her because of her shooting a child wouldn’t care about the tens of thousands who’ve died sight unseen.
Let me put a second question up as well: Why should Biden or Kamala bother going to any more debates? Who cares? Literally as a voter you have a choice between either Kamala or Trump, and you’re supposed to vote for Kamala, so why should she bother going to the debates? What are the Dem voters going to do about it, not vote for her and get Trump instead?
I’ll even give you the answer to the second question: It’s because Kamala’s supposed to be trying to win; it’s literally the same reason they’re supposed to stop supporting the genocide. If they’re not putting in the effort to win, how is that the fault of the people who won’t vote for them? This goes back to the first question: shooting a child in the face would lose them the election (although the purpose of the first question is to point out people are more bothered with the evil they can see than the monumental evil they can’t/won’t).
and then berate others for not partaking in your Sisyphean tasks
And what task is that? Literally what task do you think people are berating you for? Everyone who is no longer voting for the Dems right now just want Kamala/Biden to stop supporting genocide, it’s neither Sisyphean and nor is it directed at the people who are voting for Kamala, and as you were the one to bring it up, tell me: do you think Biden/Kamala ceasing support for genocide is Sisyphean? Simply not sending weapons at the very bare minimum?
And please don’t try to be deceptive again; you can clearly see what I’ve posted here so don’t pretend I asked a question I didn’t.
Do you not perceive the entire Democrat establishment giving full throated support of a genocide while endorsing college kids getting the shit kicked out of them and moving to the right of Trump on immigration as the death knell of the party? Yeah the DNC might exist as an entity for the next 100 years but you’re delusional if you think that there is anything there other than “But Trump is worse” to offer people. Harris has been abandoning any policies that even hint at being progressive at a break neck pace and has made it painfully clear to anyone actually paying attention that there is zero daylight between her and Biden. They can’t even pretend to care about immigrants anymore and are falling back to “Well yes we haven’t actually done anything to defend women or LGBTQ rights but at least we’re not actively trying to murder them.”
But any leftist who points out how pointless it is to convince neoliberals to not do neoliberal things is… a neoliberal?
If you’re voting for Harris and are telling political activists not to agitate for an end to genocide, then you’re just supporting neoliberalism. It doesn’t matter wether or not you’re feeling super fine with it, if all you’re actually doing is supporting the status quo and working against those that seek to improve it.
You think these protestors can stop Harris from funding Israel.
Yes let’s not agitate for political rights, I’m sure they’ll just wake up and decide not to be ghouls tomorrow
Trump isn’t courting their vote, Harris is. Trump isn’t saying he wants what they want, Harris does.
Trump is a republican and as such would never be able to get the leftist vote, democrats are, which is why leftists try to reason with them.
The Vietnam war involved forcing Americans to fight a BS war. The average American hardly feels the same kind of impact in relation to Israel, which is why you don’t see protests against the USA/Israel right now on a scale anywhere near those that happened during the Vietnam war.
As for George Floyd’s death, it took the largest protests in American history to take 3 cops to trial to be found guilty.
I don’t think your comparison makes sense and it’s leaving out so many factors about USA/Israel.
Why aren’t these protestors calling Trump out at his rallies? They know neither party will cut ties with Israel, and it seems folks in this thread are torn between acknowledging this while simultaneously claiming the Dems minds’ could be changed by these protestors. Just seems painfully naive.
I gotta ask. How many of y’all here are POC or women, and how many are white dudes?
Your smug naivete only turns people off to whatever cause you think you have. By simply saying these protests won’t work, you follow in the footsteps of those who told civil rights leaders that they were too radical and needed a different approach. Your political imagination is too limited to see a better world beyond our current one, so you belittle and shame others who fight for righteous causes because your soul is corrupted by capitalism and you like it. You fight others because genocide has no affect on your calloused, propagandized heart. You care only about being right and care nothing about righteous causes. You are deeply unserious.
The best way I’ve heard it described is like this: Republicans are werewolves outside the cabin openly howling for blood. I expect no consideration from them.
Liberals are other humans in the cabin with us who, despite professing to hate and fear the werewolves, refuse to hand over the silver bullets or lock any doors. I have been told that they want what I want, so their constant capitulation to the werewolves’ demands arouses baffled frustration.
“There are ways to get people’s attention. This isn’t it”
Something something inevitable.
It does make me wonder why folks like that protest at Harris events but not Trump events, given what Trump has said about how he’d handle Palestine.
They think they can maybe sway Harris/the dems in general. Not unreasonable, seeing as IIRC they stand to potentially lose Michigan due to its (relatively) large muslim community which will likely have reduced turnout if her policies stay the same.
There is no convincing Trump or the repubs. Their voter base LOVES genocide. The only people who aren’t onboard are some of the more extreme neo-nazis, who only disagree because they hate jews (I note here that Israel is not representative of all jews, and to claim so is anti-semitic, but these are neo-nazis) more than they hate muslims.
Sway them into what? A Trump victory?
Edit: Oh okay. You think these protestors can stop Harris from funding Israel. But any leftist who points out how pointless it is to convince neoliberals to not do neoliberal things is… a neoliberal?
I know this is exceedingly hard for liberals to understand as the only thing they stand for is a status quo where they aren’t challenged to think about anything beyond their order on the brunch menu, but there are many living, breathing, thinking human beings who are opposed to genocides and wish to see them stopped even if it’s being executed and/or funded by the country they live in.
So you believe it’s possible for leftists to convince the Dems to stop funding Israel?
Personally, I think that just demonstrates a childlike naivety.
Your comment is a prime example of papertigery imperialist intimidation tactics
Oh no I don’t because the existence of the American state itself (and its middle eastern colony Israel) is the actual issue, but you’ll never see me getting upset at people attempting to stop a genocide even if I think the likelihood of their tactics succeeding is low because they, like me, are opposed to genocide.
That said their tactics are heightening the domestic contradictions in the US and drawing increased scrutiny and contributing towards real economic damage to Israel and any actions that lead to further destabilization of that country are exclusively good things so that it isn’t able to sustain its global and decades-long campaign of terror on the world.
So what do you propose? You’re sitting here attacking other people because they don’t agree with fucking genocide and treating their protest as a non-issue in the grand scheme of things.
So what’s your plan??
Don’t think of it from a harm-reduction mindset. If YOU don’t vote for somebody against genocide, then YOU lose to Trump. It’s not on us for having a sense of what is right/wrong in the world.
I didn’t say genocide was on you. Who here has said that??
And why shouldn’t people view this in terms of harm reduction? The women in my life are scared shitless about a federal abortion ban, meanwhile so many leftist men I know completely ignore the abortion side of things and would sooner drape themselves in the Palestinian flag.
Hang on a second, if you’re going to talk about the victims of the abortion ban, then it’s only logically consistent to talk about the Palestinians being genocided, or the Palestinians whose families have bombs dropping on them. Comparing the victims of the abortion ban with not the victims of the genocide, but the people protesting it is being entirely deceptive.
So tell me, what of the Palestinians who have bombs dropping on them or on their families in Gaza; do you think they’re not scared shitless? Do you think they’re less scared than the women in your life?
What that individual is trying to say, but is too much of a coward to say it with their chest, is: The loss of life of a Palestinian is less concerning to me than the pain a white woman might endure.
Now the scared yanks have two options:
I: continue getting their rights taken away by the abusive system they worship
A: Turn on the system that betrayed them and work towards its destruction
I was in that situation once, I took option A.
The protestors want to pressure Harris/the dems so that they stop providing unlimited aid to Israel’s ongoing genocide. Do you think that cutting aid to Israel would cost the dems more electorally than wholeheartedly enabling the genocide would?
Is there anything Kamala or Biden could do you would consider a valid reason not to vote for either of them? If Biden literally shot a Palestinian child in the face on stage, would that do it? What about SAing a Palestinian?
I ask because realistically speaking doing these would lose the Dems the election, and yet the genocide is exactly this except in the thousands. You’d never expect people to vote for either of these people if they publicly did something heinous, and yet the genocide is exactly something heinous, just not as in your face as the president doing it on stage.
Of course there is. If Harris shot a child and Trump said he’d shoot 10 children, who would you rather deal with? Or is that a hard choice you’d rather not make by avoiding voting?
It’s like women’s rights in relation to abortion. The vast majority of leftist men who seemingly don’t care if a Trump admin results in a federal ban, and would rather spend their energy convincing themselves that they can dissuade Dems from supporting Israel.
Fix what you can but don’t delude yourself into thinking you can fix what you can’t, and then berate others for not partaking in your Sisyphean tasks.
If this, if that…
Liberals don’t live in the real world
Then I wouldn’t vote for either of them as I would not want to have “child murder” become something trivial that the Dems feel they can get away with. I would not want a child murderer to be legitimised and approved by way of my vote. This also isn’t an answer to the question, which you are attempting to evade.
If you’re trying to make a comparison like this, then you have to compare the causes and the victims, not some made-up guy you’re mad at.
You are delusional if you believe you are fixing anything by trivialising genocide as a political cause. Letting this slide isn’t some minor policy issue and you’re both deranged and immensely stupid to think that it is.
That is quite literally what you are doing right now
Are you being deceptive on purpose or did you just misunderstand my question?
I didn’t ask if Harris shot a child and Trump promised to shoot 10/more who would you rather deal with, I asked if Kamala simply shot a child, would that be enough for you not to vote for her? Literally, right now, you switch on the news and see every channel telling you Kamala just shot a Palestinian child in the face and you see the video of it, meanwhile Trump is making zero claims about shooting any children; do you still vote for her? To reiterate my question: Is there anything Kamala or Biden could do you would consider a valid reason not to vote for either of them?
The point of the question is that you and I both know she’d lose either every Dem voter or the vast majority of them, meanwhile an actual genocide is taking place where many, many more are dying and the same people who’d stop voting for her because of her shooting a child wouldn’t care about the tens of thousands who’ve died sight unseen.
Let me put a second question up as well: Why should Biden or Kamala bother going to any more debates? Who cares? Literally as a voter you have a choice between either Kamala or Trump, and you’re supposed to vote for Kamala, so why should she bother going to the debates? What are the Dem voters going to do about it, not vote for her and get Trump instead?
I’ll even give you the answer to the second question: It’s because Kamala’s supposed to be trying to win; it’s literally the same reason they’re supposed to stop supporting the genocide. If they’re not putting in the effort to win, how is that the fault of the people who won’t vote for them? This goes back to the first question: shooting a child in the face would lose them the election (although the purpose of the first question is to point out people are more bothered with the evil they can see than the monumental evil they can’t/won’t).
And what task is that? Literally what task do you think people are berating you for? Everyone who is no longer voting for the Dems right now just want Kamala/Biden to stop supporting genocide, it’s neither Sisyphean and nor is it directed at the people who are voting for Kamala, and as you were the one to bring it up, tell me: do you think Biden/Kamala ceasing support for genocide is Sisyphean? Simply not sending weapons at the very bare minimum?
And please don’t try to be deceptive again; you can clearly see what I’ve posted here so don’t pretend I asked a question I didn’t.
Do you not perceive the entire Democrat establishment giving full throated support of a genocide while endorsing college kids getting the shit kicked out of them and moving to the right of Trump on immigration as the death knell of the party? Yeah the DNC might exist as an entity for the next 100 years but you’re delusional if you think that there is anything there other than “But Trump is worse” to offer people. Harris has been abandoning any policies that even hint at being progressive at a break neck pace and has made it painfully clear to anyone actually paying attention that there is zero daylight between her and Biden. They can’t even pretend to care about immigrants anymore and are falling back to “Well yes we haven’t actually done anything to defend women or LGBTQ rights but at least we’re not actively trying to murder them.”
If you’re voting for Harris and are telling political activists not to agitate for an end to genocide, then you’re just supporting neoliberalism. It doesn’t matter wether or not you’re feeling super fine with it, if all you’re actually doing is supporting the status quo and working against those that seek to improve it.
Yes let’s not agitate for political rights, I’m sure they’ll just wake up and decide not to be ghouls tomorrow
Trump isn’t courting their vote, Harris is. Trump isn’t saying he wants what they want, Harris does.
Trump is a republican and as such would never be able to get the leftist vote, democrats are, which is why leftists try to reason with them.
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That doesn’t strike you as naive? Believing the USA of all countries will stop funding Israel because of protestors?
Protests ended Jim Crow and helped stop the Vietnam war and highlighted police brutality that finally caused convictions, why not defunding Israel?
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Absolutely. I was being general to facilitate a good faith conversation, but that turned out to be pointless.
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You believe the two are comparable? Seriously?
The Vietnam war involved forcing Americans to fight a BS war. The average American hardly feels the same kind of impact in relation to Israel, which is why you don’t see protests against the USA/Israel right now on a scale anywhere near those that happened during the Vietnam war.
As for George Floyd’s death, it took the largest protests in American history to take 3 cops to trial to be found guilty.
I don’t think your comparison makes sense and it’s leaving out so many factors about USA/Israel.
Why aren’t these protestors calling Trump out at his rallies? They know neither party will cut ties with Israel, and it seems folks in this thread are torn between acknowledging this while simultaneously claiming the Dems minds’ could be changed by these protestors. Just seems painfully naive.
I gotta ask. How many of y’all here are POC or women, and how many are white dudes?
Your smug naivete only turns people off to whatever cause you think you have. By simply saying these protests won’t work, you follow in the footsteps of those who told civil rights leaders that they were too radical and needed a different approach. Your political imagination is too limited to see a better world beyond our current one, so you belittle and shame others who fight for righteous causes because your soul is corrupted by capitalism and you like it. You fight others because genocide has no affect on your calloused, propagandized heart. You care only about being right and care nothing about righteous causes. You are deeply unserious.
you are very domesticated
I hate when people like you do this. Nothing screams cracker more than condescendingly believing everyone that doesn’t think like you is white.
Everything about your posting history screams cracker. You are a fucking sundodger, I can see it in your posts.
Everyone pushing back against you is an actual POC. That’s why they don’t think like you, because only white people think and act like you.
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The best way I’ve heard it described is like this: Republicans are werewolves outside the cabin openly howling for blood. I expect no consideration from them.
Liberals are other humans in the cabin with us who, despite professing to hate and fear the werewolves, refuse to hand over the silver bullets or lock any doors. I have been told that they want what I want, so their constant capitulation to the werewolves’ demands arouses baffled frustration.
Republicans don’t even try to pretend to give a fuck about anyone that’s not white/cis/male/straight/ Christian/ western.
Unlike Democrats who have made it their identity