I’m not going to weigh in on pets particularly because I don’t know enough, I’m also not vegan. I do however want to remark that you can sense the meat eating guilt and reactionary emotional defensiveness in a lot of this stuff. People feel very attacked and very defensive.
There is an underlying feeling deep down that it is wrong but because they personally enjoy it and get happy hormones when eating the topic triggers a massive emotional response.
Speculation: Eating food is probably one of the only times some people truly genuinely feel happy and is responsible for the massive defensive reaction when anyone suggests food habits should be changed. I suspect that the non-vegans that do not react poorly to the topic have much stronger sources of happiness that aren’t food.
that line of speculation is super compelling. thanks for sharing. I have had to have a lot of conversations with people about why others have such strong personal feelings about their eating habits and this speculation honestly fills in some of the gaps
Eating food is probably one of the only times some people truly genuinely feel happy
ha ha
I’m not going to weigh in on pets particularly because I don’t know enough, I’m also not vegan.
I wish more people did this about things
In hindsight it sort of sounds like I think you need to be vegan to weigh in on that. Those should be two separate things. I just wanted to mention that I’m not for the sake of the post itself. The pet part is just genuinely because I’ve looked at literally no research. I avoid forming opinions on shit I know nothing about.
Ya I think it’s cool people can just go “ya I don’t have the knowledge to weigh in on this subject”. I unironically wish people did this more.
That’s been my experience, both online and offline: the most aggressive defensive reactions seem to come from resurfacing guilt and the need to rebury that guilt by any means necessary.
I have thoughts so strap in. This is a bit of a rant trigger for me.
Food is awesomely important to humans. Every culture I have looked at (layperson, not anthropologist so there’s that) has some sort of food-hospitality ritual. Festivities have particular foods associated with them, you eat and drink certain things at weddings, funerals, birthdays, season changes, whatever. In houses it is often the kitchen which becomes the center of activity and socialisation. Food is probably involved to some degree in the vast majority of good memories you have, from meals with family, self indulgence after a hard or stressful day, meetings with friends, celebrations of achievement etc.
This isn’t that surprising, we are meat and it needs sustaining. A huge amount of effort in any individual’s life goes into securing and eating food.
But if you’re the kind of person that doesn’t view the world through a systemic lens, that looks at structural issues and ideological hegemony as a series of individual moral failings. Well someone raising veganism is obviously doing so to say that you are a bad person and you should feel guilty about all of your good memories. You see this shit directly, people constantly accuse vegans of having moral superiority complexes and wanting to shame people. Research says people vastly overestimate how negatively vegans judge non vegans. Antivegans also conveniently forget that almost every single vegan was non-vegan and thus was complicit in carnism until they were given the chance to change by someone else’s advocacy and education.
Generally the data say that people who anticipate negative judgement less from vegans are more likely to rate vegans as more moral/more positively. Notably this is true even in the absence of any actual interactions. The lashing out is massively driven by a guilt complex caused by a garbage understanding of how human societies and systemic evil actually work.
This makes me wonder if there is an approach to selling veganism that offers the same approach marxism makes when it comes to socialism - not being a moralist about it. I suspect selling to those people would be more effective without the preconceived beliefs they have about vegans and moral judgement. Maybe a specific spinoff branch of veganism without the name vegan, named intentionally to get people to ask what it is. It would potentially enable a foot in the door because it wouldn’t trigger the reactions.
Idk, figure out how to make yourself vegan and get back to me with what opened your mind?
My experience was studying/working in ag and packing chickens I loved into crates to go be murdered triggering a lifetime of guilt and a slowly narrowing list of people it was acceptable to murder for pleasure based on the latest science. Before I realised my null hypothesis was entirely fucked up and kept leading me astray. I can’t really empathise with people who aren’t acutely aware of the guilt and shame in carnism as it happened to me around the time I feel I can start recalling consistent memories (14ish) so it’s hard for me to understand what would be individually effective.
The only times I’ve managed to actually change anyone’s mind in person it has been a process of relentless reminders that another way is possible which has preventing them from embracing the “normal, natural, necessary” required to justify stuff.
Lots of activists try different things, and many studies have been done. But it appears that mind-changing happens over a long time and we’re basically highly persistent to being persuaded of anything once we form our first opinion. The best studies basically say “after such and such an intervention people rated their likelihood of going vegan higher/lower on the exit survey”. Not useless, but it’s impossible to capture what actually converts people that way.
Personally I get the most “huh” faces when I wear my elwood’s dog meat Tshirt and cause random people to come up to me and make most of the case of veganism for me in the face of my apparent inhumanity.
Idk, figure out how to make yourself vegan and get back to me with what opened your mind?
My reasons are dietary. I have IBS that might be crohns or worse or something else (nobody seems to reliably know) that basically makes eating right now a very annoying thing to manage. Everything I do is about being as insanely boring as possible and not upsetting my body when I am seemingly balanced.
Mayyyyybe I could figure out balancing things while also being vegan but the barrier for me is quite high, I become completely incapacitated for days at a time when something sets me off, it’s very severe, and sometimes it just happens all by itself without a trigger. Going low fodmap is helpful. But nothing reliably has fodmap testing and fodmap info isn’t on any packaging for anything despite the prevalence of bowel problems and the well researched fact that low-fodmap diets are well known to help it.
I’m not really trying to audit you it was mostly a little joke since you seem self aware but for what it’s worth I also have IBS.
I am sick a lot, but such is life. If I could make myself well by like harvesting a substance from the hearts of orphans I wouldn’t do that, and I basically feel the same way about killing non human people. That said a couple of things: if crohns get it figured out, early intervention is important, if IBS fodmap exclusoom is not considered a long term solution by the folks at Monash that discovered it anyway but rather a diagnostic test.
I have slowly improved, with gradual introduction of trigger foods. Some stuff like sprouting lentils appears to help a bit. Cooking them in alkaline water (e.g. teaspoon of bicarb). Ferments help a lot! I assume the bacteria are eating the problematic sugars.
Isolates like tvp are also great! seitan and TVP are lifesavers for me during bad flares.
I won’t lie, it’s painful and gross and I have to wear pads 24/7 for mucus leakage at unexpected times but like if I was in the middle ages with bone cancer mine would be to suffer and die, I’m in this era with shitty food options and mine is to cramp and leak.
Other options poop transplant trials? They show promising results, I’m keeping an eye out.
I wonder if this also applies to racism, sexism, etc.? Like if people who associate their positions on the hierarchy with happy memories (relationship swith their relatives, hanging out with a group of guys after school, etc.). So when you attack their position of power, they take it really personally. The “white guilt” stuff they spout is pure projection.
Now I’m wondering about how bullying the other manifests itself. It’s pretty common for white people to bond by using racism. Perhaps some chuds think fondly of the time they made fun of some gay person with their group of friends. When you tell them stuff like that is wrong, they flip the fuck out.
I’m not sorry for causing this.
Also holy fuck if someone says “obligate carnivore” to me one more fucking time I am going to reach through the screen and suffocate them by stuffing a head of cauliflower down their throats.
Anyway, one reading of this TOS update bans discussions of meat eating as it advocates immanent harm and is an unhealthy diet.
I doubt any of the people yelling obligate carnivore like it’s an incantation to banish vegans actually know what it means.
You should have more faith in yourself. I am certain they don’t
yelling obligate carnivore at vegans
Seeing as vegans are definitional proof that humans are not obligate carnivores…
humans aren’t even carnivores, they’re omnivores. Our bodies literally cannot handle being meat only diets. ‘obligatory carnivore’ makes no sense.
“You’re telling me that only eating 4 steaks/burgers a day and constantly being in physical pain isn’t normal?”
The wrong person is apologising here. You did nothing wrong.(lol I misread what you wrote)Also I have zero interest in non-vegan’s opinions on vegan matters. If someone knowingly and calmly get involved in the industrial murder and exploitation of animals, everything they say about the issue is just concern trolling. It’s like the millions of carnist Westerners who hold strong opinions on PETA.
my dbzero account was purging the science deniers and argued with rooki over it.
Kill the redditor in you
in youboth
both
both is good
Rooki is the same admin forcing the MBFC bot on every news post.
They refuse to listen to the community. Their way or the highway.
Who needs fed when you got admins like this? Probably still a
Embarrassing that people continue to use these instances
Apparently news is now gonna say no for now?
But bot still on every post so expecting rooki to say no it can’t be turned off
Im tempted to make a world account just to ram my face into this thread in particular. Just no thoughts in this persons head other than
. Information justs slides right off like a tab of butter on a slide during a hot summer afternoon.The biggest issue with Reddit and Facebook was that they let stuff like this stick around it and eventually consume it.
It’s a good policy imho, and I’m happy to see it
Science should prevail
Because the priority for them is engagement, regardless of how harmful the content could be to people. Engagement doesn’t mean shit here because nobody’s profiting off of it.
Am I really hearing this shit from a .world user?
@Rose 3•
As noted in my post on the “moderation incident”, by adding more subjectivity to the rules, you are opening the door to even more instance moderator misconduct. There is already evidence of how that would go.
Rooki felt it right to intervene in the !vegan cat food thread (and got a pat on the back with the new rules made to justify their actions), then not only took no issue with comments like “Meat is not something diabetics need to worry about.” but also fueled the fire in the same thread by saying “To be honest linking something like meat to death of people is like saying everybody that breathed air died.”
So much for taking action against harmful dietary advice.
That post is wild just carnist after carnist whining
Bewildered Carnist
“What the fuck is “vegan cat food”? I sometimes can’t understand people.”
“Ok. I get it. As people, we are bad. We mass husbandry just for food, modifying them with artificial selection for productivity. So I can understand veganism (although I am not vegan).”
“But have we really reached the point where we stop animals from eating meat? Either I’m a bigoted idiot or people are out of their minds.”
q
Brave Poster
“For me, the purpose of the post is exactly what it asks for. I don’t think I’ve ever posted to !vegan except for today, to cross-post the OP, but my own fate as an active lemmy.world user likely rests on the outcome of this request. I run a tiny community that has no relation to animal rights or ethics but I feel it is absolutely threatened when there are moderators like Rooki that act based on their views rather than the rules.”
Smug Carnist
“That vegan community has a rule against misinformation. The idea that a cat is perfectly healthy on a vegan diet is misinformation. You feel threatened by mods like Rooki who act based on rules rather than your views. You’d rather mistreat animals than admit that anything any vegan has ever said ever might be wrong, and not allow anyone to point out that your wrong.”
Concern troll Carnist
People are out of their minds. It’s a cult. Thankfully, mostly constrained to the west.
Famously some British folks invented caring about animal rights in 1940 or whenever. There has never been any large or long lived philosophical movements against the eating of animals outside the west. Certainly there are no religions that take non violence to mean that people should eat plant based. None at all. Outside britian and the vegan cult that is.
I believe this study. It’s true that vegans say their vegan cats are healthier than other cats.
Vegan cats being the thing that tears .world apart is really funny because I’ve seen it irl and wouldn’t be surprised if ya’ll already had that struggle session here.
Not trying to start that debate here if not, but among most vegan groups I’ve been part of, many people had cats for years before adopting a vegan lifestyle in every other way, so it becomes a “don’t ask, don’t tell” situation. Otherwise, you get into endless arguments about how the cat havers aren’t really vegan. But the non-cat havers offer no real individual solutions and just tip toe around the idea that the cat haver should kill them to balance out the moral calculus, or give them to someone else to wash their hands of the issue while not materially affecting anything.
If you ever want to destroy a vegan community, ask if you should feed your cat a vegan diet or more generally about taking care of meat-eating animals at all.
Doubly funny, in an absurd way, is that .world will so fiercely advocate for their kitties, but ignore the deaths of humans that their favorite politicians are causing.
Hexbear had a nearly site destroying struggle session that took a while to rebuild from after vegancirclejerk was lifeboated. It wouldn’t surprise me if that was the powder keg.
Nah I was there for it, it was 100% omnivores just being giant dickheads who saw themselves as the furthest left/most moral/whatever the fuck people being confronted with the gigantic moral black hole of how they enjoy the fruit of mass torture & murder. Eventually they couldn’t handle the heat so had to run crying to the mods. There were also the usual spurious accusations of vegans being anti-indigenous levied by non-indigenous people. Truly a deeply embarrassing episode that omnis here do their best to forget, just like they do their best to forget how if they witnessed the process of their meals being made for more than five minutes they would get lifelong PTSD. It’s fine to inflict that damage on the colonized people who work in the meatpacking plants though.
Vegan Theory Club are offshoot vegans of this event
plus it was done by a pro vegan group
It was done by a uni. Fuck off, shit.just.works poster.
Guy (not OP, I mean the one from .world), fucking read the lit review. The unhealthiness of vegan cat food is based on vibes, not published evidence. There’s also a lot of back research that vegan cat food is fine, it’s not just this one study. Again, READ THE FUCKING STUDUY.
I know it’s not intentional but fuck me if I didn’t doubletake at 1418
Being allergic to cats has saved me from so many arguments, both online and off.
Before I was vegan I gave my cat science diet food and he got diabetes from it.
Lemmy.worlds actions make sense when you realize they are trying to develop a reddit clone to eventually monetize down the line. Their stated goal is to develop lemmy compatible software called sublinks and migrate their userbase off it specifically because they do not agree with Dessaline’s and Nutomic’s politics and don’t think they are writing software fast enough for them.
They’re apparently going to release an actual statement on the “incident” Later today. It would be surprising if anything good came from that after they wrote these new rules to justify further actions.
“Dae le epic bacon” Reddit
and their consequences did not stay contained to Reddit.the leftism leaving people’s bodies when veganism is mentioned
Ma, I’m famousHope lemmy.wehrmacht follows their leader. Also hope you repost this comment too, fascist losers
Libs stop making us look cool challenge level: impossiable
The moral panic over hexbear is so cringe. Like there are a few people that post here I think are a bit cooked, but it’s honestly a low % than world or whatever. They seem to think you’re some hoard of psy-ops agents champing at the bit to round people up and Dirlewanger Brigade them.
Mostly it’s just shitposts and bitching about the usa which is entirely justified as it’s an evil military empire…
rule 8 bro
What about it? However you read that rule, LW isn’t accessible from Hexbear.
i was mostly trying to say it was a lame post that had no relevance
