• enkers@sh.itjust.works
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      5
      ·
      edit-2
      4 months ago

      There’s obviously no way to prove this sort of statement, however every conscious being I’ve asked has told me they don’t like suffering. Additionally, almost all conscious beings specifically go out of their way to avoid suffering. I personally find this evidence sufficiently convincing.

        • enkers@sh.itjust.works
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          4
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          edit-2
          4 months ago

          We’re not simply talking about pain, though. I like the painful sensation from hot peppers, for example, but I wouldn’t ever wish to subject myself to the systematic violence and awful conditions that farmed animals face.

    • naught@sh.itjust.works
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      2
      arrow-down
      3
      ·
      4 months ago

      Can you supply a convincing argument for suffering? We are fully capable of living with much, much less meat production. Why should we continue to inflict pain on things which can experience it? It seems manifest to me

      • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        4
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        4 months ago

        Can you supply a convincing argument for suffering?

        i’m not saying it’s a moral good. i’m saying it’s amoral. as in it is neither good or bad in itself.

        • naught@sh.itjust.works
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          2
          arrow-down
          3
          ·
          4 months ago

          We have agency over our actions and the ability to reduce the negative impacts we have on the world. We are unique in this ability, and we should exercise it

            • naught@sh.itjust.works
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              4
              arrow-down
              2
              ·
              4 months ago

              Would you kick a dog in the street? Shoot a cat with a bb gun? These are things that happen with frequency, but I wouldn’t do because I think that causing pain to another animal, senselessly, is a bad thing.

              Would you raise a chicken in complete darkness for its whole life? Would you raise a cow in a suffocatingly small pen among its excrement? Impregnate a cow constantly and steal its babies away for meat so you can continue to milk it until it dies? Animals feel pain. They communicate, they suffer, they mourn.

              If you can supply an argument that causing suffering of innocent animals is good/doesn’t matter, I’m all ears.

              • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                4
                arrow-down
                1
                ·
                4 months ago

                If you can supply an argument that causing suffering … is good/doesn’t matter

                sure. battlefield amputations cause suffering. sometimes it saves a life. it’s good.

              • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                3
                arrow-down
                1
                ·
                4 months ago

                Would you kick a dog in the street? Shoot a cat with a bb gun?

                no. these are cruel. practicing cruelty toward animals may create a habit, and end with practicing cruelty toward people, which would be immoral. it is best not to practice cruelty at all.

                • naught@sh.itjust.works
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  4
                  arrow-down
                  2
                  ·
                  4 months ago

                  Animal agriculture is necessarily cruel. It is efficient. By your logic, this cruelty is negative. It sounds like we are very close to agreeing, frankly

              • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                3
                arrow-down
                1
                ·
                4 months ago

                If you can supply an argument that causing suffering of innocent animals is good/doesn’t matter, I’m all ears.

                “innocent” here is an appeal to emotion, since we don’t regard non-human animals as moral agents.