I had basically given up on electoralism for years at this point.
I do not believe the western working class by and large has any revolutionary potential, basically JDPON-pilled.

But the genocide in Palestine really made me more invested in this whole dog and pony show again.
I guess I figured likeā€¦sure bourgeoise democracy will not bring about socialism, but at the very least you can still get some concessions potentially out of it.
Perhaps I was naive, but likeā€¦I wanted to hope there was some way the Democrats could be convinced to stop it by November, even if it was electoralist bullshit I feel like the Palestinians deserved (and still deserve) even a futile attempt.

But seeing the shit with the DSA, especially the SMC and Groundwork caucuses, seeing unions who oppose the genocide endorse Biden/Harris right out the gate, seeing the Uncommitted movement do the same while the Harris campaign has done nothing but spit in their faceā€¦.

I am filled with a helpless rage. Americans are the most pathetic contemptible creatures on this earth.

Iā€™M NOT EVEN ASKING FOR SOCIALISM! ALL Iā€™M ASKING FOR IS THE DEMOCRATS TO COME AROUND ON AN ISSUE 77% OF DEMOCRATS AND 61% OF AMERICANS OPPOSE!
BUT EVEN THAT IS TOO MUCH, TOO HARD FOR THESE ORGANIZATIONS TO FIGHT FOR EVEN WHEN IT IS ALLEDGELY THEIR WHOLE REASON FOR EXISTING!!

I knew Americans were useless and selfish, and short-sighted and stupidā€¦but I didnā€™t think they were to this extent.
That was my mistake I guess.

  • BelieveRevolt [he/him]@hexbear.net
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    Hereā€™s another lib who thinks you shouldnā€™t protest someone over genocide because hypothetically Trump would be worse.

    Do you still believe theyā€™re bitter enemies even though Kamala called Trump after the latest sad excuse for a shooter and condemned political violence? Theyā€™re more like the face and heel in pro wrestling than anything.

    • drone509
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      I donā€™t think theyā€™re enemies. I think their policies on Israel would be nearly identical, except Trump would be slightly more corrupt and incompetent. Itā€™s just hard to threaten to withhold a vote when thereā€™s no alternative.

      • HelltakerHomosexual [she/her, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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        there are alternatives, and withholding votes might get democrats to, yknow, fucking change their position in order to woo voters? Thats the whole point of compromise? seriously do i have to tell libs about how their own shitty ā€˜democracyā€™ works?

        • BodyBySisyphus [he/him]@hexbear.net
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          The problem is that democrats are also perfectly happy to eat shit in the election and spend the next four years fundraising off Project 2025 and leading the #resistance, so it doesnā€™t seem like they feel any need to be responsive to voters

          • anarcho_blinkenist [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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            If they eat shit because of mass defections and people throwing their weight behind 3rd parties, especially socialists like PSL who do non-parliamentary ground work as well, and people continue throwing their weight behind them voting for them and joining them, and continue agitating and growing to not only pull the Democrat-defectors and people who are holding their nose who can be convinced that this is not helping (of which there are and continue to be many); but also continually activating the 35%-50% that donā€™t even vote because of how disillusioned and disenfranchised they are by the corporate-imperialist duopoly; such that the margins of working class voters that Democrats rely on by being the ā€œlesser evilā€ are starved from them, while they are instead committed to fighting over the increasingly shrinking bourgeois and petty-bourgeois voterbase with the republicans then they will never get power again unless they reorient toward the left; which we know and youā€™ve stated as much, they are institutionally structurally incapable of doing.

            This means either the ruling class floats a reformist social-democrat ā€œlaborā€ or ā€œprogressiveā€ party to try to capture working class voters from moving to the growing socialists, which we are growing and will ā€” from those radicalized after the 2016 primaries to the George Floyd Uprisings to now and on itā€™s been exponential; which would cause the Democrat party to split in half with half joining the republicans (that theyā€™ve already been converging with anyway), and half hedging their bets and fleeing to the new ā€œprogressiveā€ party like ā€˜rats from a sinking ship,ā€™ which would not only alienate the new ā€œprogressiveā€ partyā€™s left wing by ā€œdemocrat-izingā€ the party with the same people and politics they were trying to escape from (with which sufficient agitation easily moves many of them into more radical politics and joining the socialists), but would force this reconstituting on the bourgeois politicians as a chaotic retreat into positions they donā€™t want against a rising socialist party. This also, in turning the focus of the bourgeois politicians inward, inevitably helps the victims of imperialism and sharpens the external contradictions of empire, which have in many places already approached or reached rupture points.

            Or they ignore this and ignore us and drop the thinnest-of-masks they still have; joining the open-fanged republicans straight away. This would be their worst option for maintaining the illusion of liberal democracy, and would promptly radicalize a huge portion of working people who never held any illusions about the Republicans or about Trump into socialist and revolutionary politics. And with supporting the PSL and actively engaging in movement-building with them, having the socialists standing on the other side of the see-saw with the weight of the working class when this happens, funneling masses to us, could legitimately lead to a sort of dual power situation. This latter option would be incredibly self-destructive for the ruling class, but they are that and have clearly become so comfortable and entrenched in their interest theyā€™ve forgotten how to play politics, so who knows.

            We need to think proactively and dialectically, and engage ourselves in confronting with sharp intent the contradictions that exist; with a mind for movement-building among the masses, many of whom still engage with electoral politics or otherwise still believe in it as an institution, if not the parties in it. This is what I see as the proper line. And though youā€™re not wrong (in fact are quite accurate) in describing exactly what the Democrats are happy to do in their cruise-control political niche within the duopoly which theyā€™ve grown so comfortable with, it is an improper and opportunist line to just accept that as is and so capitulate to their precepts which only serves their ends. Instead, we need to think about how to exploit their strategy by our understanding of what and who they are, and make it untenable and force them into positions that they are incapable of handling.

        • anarcho_blinkenist [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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          Unironically I think Venezuela coup and Bolivia coups probably would have been less of a disastrous clusterfuck for the US, and much more competent and effective under Clinton, because of how petulant and stupid and impatient and spiteful Trump is in comparison toā€¦ basically anyone on the planet. John Bolton was all pissy about it in his book and interviews. Trump just hated the guyā€™s mustache and would be petty all the time, and pushed himself into involvement where he had no place to, and eventually just got ā€œboredā€ of Venezuela and scrapped it. Leaving things in the hilarious state where after Russia went into Ukraine, Nuland had to meet Maduro asking for oil while the US still recognized Guaido, and got grilled by, of all people, gusano-extraordinaire Marc Rubio in a congressional hearing over it (same hearing where Nuland admitted about the biolabs in Ukraine that was being denied elsewhere. Bizarre timeline)

          Murdering Soleimani was fucking unhinged and horrible, but itā€™s hard to say Clinton of all people wouldnā€™t do something equally evil, but with less randomness and with more followup than just murdering a guy on a diplomatic mission, by the grace of Iran not causing a massive war over such a stupid thing, and claiming ā€œvictory.ā€

          Honestly they all deserve the hague, but then the US would invade the hague

      • Abracadaniel [he/him]@hexbear.net
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        2 months ago

        unless he wins a state by one vote, it makes no difference. If he wins by multiple votes, specifically due to low turnout from low enthusiasm for Harris, then itā€™s her fault as a candidate for not appealing to the electorate.

        • drone509
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          Yeah, it would absolutely be her fault. Wouldnā€™t help Palestine much thoughā€¦

            • drone509
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              No, I agree. I think that Palestine isnā€™t the only issue that matters, though, and sheā€™d be different than Trump on a lot of other issues. Female reproductive health, appointing judges, having a working FTC and FCC. So if Iā€™m going to withold my vote to help Palestine, Iā€™d like some reason to believe it would actually help them.

              • AmericaDelendaEst [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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                Female reproductive health, appointing judges, having a working FTC and FCC

                motherfucker just look at all the fucking nothing Biden has done on that. Roe v Wade overturned on his watch and the only response wasā€¦ nothing! Telling you to fucking vote! Heā€™s already in fucking office, stupid!

                christ your fucking lemmy instance is rivaled only by that stupid fucking star wars one for random ass shitlibbery

                • Are_Euclidding_Me [e/em/eir]@hexbear.net
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                  2 months ago

                  motherfucker just look at all the fucking nothing Biden has done on that. Roe v Wade overturned on his watch and the only response wasā€¦ nothing!

                  Iā€™ve tried using this line of argument on a lib (my mother). It doesnā€™t work. Her response was ā€œBiden is super catholic and had a hard time even saying the word ā€˜abortionā€™. Kamala is a pro-choice woman, so of course sheā€™ll be better about reproductive rights.ā€ In my mind that response is almost delusional, itā€™s clear to me that abortion is too potent a political football to ever be truly ā€œsolvedā€. Democrats will pay lip-service to it to gain votes and then do fucking nothing to protect reproductive rights. But in the lib mind, since Kamala is a ā€œprogressiveā€ (ha) woman, abortion rights are as good as saved, even though weā€™ve had a democrat in office for the last four years and reproductive rights are more under threat than theyā€™ve ever been.

                  I donā€™t know how to get through to people, I think sometimes you just canā€™t. sadness

                  • barrbaric [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                    Has Kamala even said sheā€™ll do anything about abortion? Like we all know Obama lied about codifying Roe to gain votes, but she hasnā€™t even gone that far AFAIK.

          • Abracadaniel [he/him]@hexbear.net
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            2 months ago

            Youā€™re implying that me voting for Harris would help Palestine, but in the scenario I just laid out, my vote is not enough to have changed the outcome!

      • BelieveRevolt [he/him]@hexbear.net
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        2 months ago

        Youā€™re right that their policies on Israel would be nearly identical. The point is that they donā€™t have to be. OP pointed out that 77% of Democrats and 61% of Americans support ending the genocide, why isnā€™t she listening?

        • drone509
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          Because she knows that Palestine isnā€™t most Americanā€™s top issue, so she can afford to lose the few people that would go through with a boycott.

          • riseuppikmin [he/him]@hexbear.net
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            2 months ago

            Just looking for a quick clarification on two points before further responses:

            • Do you agree that Israel is commiting genocide?
            • Do you agree that the US is the primary financier of that genocide?
              • riseuppikmin [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                So weā€™re at the point where it seems you acknowledge the horror of the US empire in basically being directly responsible (it could stop the money faucet at any moment if it viewed stopping the genocide as being in its own interests) for what I personally can only imagine as the worst crime against humanity possible to be committed by a state actor.

                Tactically the only real electoral power you have as an individual is the threat to withhold your vote, and to deploy that tactic most effectively youā€™d give a very explicit reason for that withholding in order to apply pressure to the party who ostensibly does want to win an election. Infinitely better than individually voicing this tactic is creating a large bloc of people who exist within the critical states where 10-20k people will potentially determine an election. Getting the number of people in this bloc higher is the only real electoral strategy at forcing Kamalaā€™s campaign to acquiesce to electorate demands and bring forth a better outcome for Palestine because if she doesnā€™t she will, explicitly, know she will lose. This provably works because the democratic party has already proven that in the face of an electoral impossibility (Joe Biden winning re-election) they will try to preserve power.

                Even if youā€™re a ā€œthere are other issues more important to me than attempting to stop my nationā€™s genocide voterā€ (and if you are one of these people I really recommend a lot of introspection about yourself, your morals, and your convictions)- recognize that the violence being financed, supported, and enacted abroad WILL INEVITABLY COME HOME at some point if it is not rejected by the electorate. I donā€™t know your most vulnerable issue and where it would rank on democrats deciding genociding or interring you would be politically expedient for them, but it sure seems that at least attempting this tactic even if itā€™s just you falsely signaling to them that you wonā€™t vote for democrats over their financing and arms supplying of this genocide is in your long term interests so that you hopefully stop or at least delay the empire turning its violence on you.

                • drone509
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                  I want my sisters to maintain bodily autonomy, and I donā€™t want my country to descend even more into christian fascism. I also donā€™t think me falsely signalling that I wonā€™t vote for democrats will benefit much of anything. In 2016, it mostly just got leftists labeled ā€œBernie Brosā€ and blamed for Clintonā€™s failings.

                  • riseuppikmin [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                    Then when the stateā€™s violence, which has already demonstrated its capacity for genocide to your own acknowledgement, inevitably turns on you or your loved ones (maybe thats 5 years, maybe itā€™s 50) donā€™t be surprised and understand that your potential allies will have already been destroyed. The people you didnā€™t stand in solidarity with before you are gone and the ones next on the list take the same inaction you espouse right now.

                  • anarcho_blinkenist [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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                    2 months ago

                    Youā€™re mistaken on a few points here, friend. Iā€™m gonna give an overview and then thereā€™s a spoiler with a wall of text deepening explanations.

                    Your sister is already not maintaining her bodily autonomy under democrats now. Itā€™s being stripped all over the country and democrats have been doing nothing to stop it, and in many ways actively helping it be stripped. It will keep happening without change. Fascism is not a person, and is growing and will grow regardless of who is president, as the economic crises and world crises of empire worsen. No one is asking you to falsely signal, but telling you why giving democrats the mandate to do what they are doing and supplying them their margin they rely on to cruise control into genocide and aiding fascism and destruction of the planet so they can turn around and drum up this same sentiment and fears in you for the next election is untenable and is how things got this bad in the first place.

                    And 2016 didnā€™t ā€œmostly just get leftists labeled bernie bros and blamed for clinton failingā€, 2016 and experiencing that nonsense from liberals made people communist. It made them actual leftists. It radicalized more people into communism than any event in decades, only surpassed by the George Floyd Uprisings (which may not have had that kind of energy without such radicalization) and then this moment we are living in now. 2016 made many people into actual active socialists and made them realize the role liberals truly play in society because of the things that you said ā€œmostly onlyā€ happened. And what is happening now in 2024 is doing that tenfold. Maybe more. The radicalization happening now is unprecedented in modern USA and other countries. You never would have seen in the USA these kinds of mass sustained protests saying ā€œFree Palestineā€ and calling for decolonization of the occupation, and interrupting campaign events to protest US-backed Israeli atrocities, like we are seeing now. Iā€™m going to deepen these with explanations, but itā€™s a wall of text so Iā€™m gonna spoiler it so it doesnā€™t mess peoplesā€™ scroll.

                    spoiler
                    • On bodily autonomy: her bodily autonomy is already being stripped in the country, and fascism is rising and will continue to rise regardless of whoā€™s in power. The democrats are doing nothing to stop it and never will. Democrats had the executive and both houses of congress in Obamaā€™s term and could have codified abortion rights and LGBTQ civil rights then and there. They refused and Obama even gave up a supreme court seat in active capitulation, after which now Biden is refusing to push to pack the court and denouncing the idea; and they do this because they donā€™t care about any of us. They work for all the same billionaires and imperialist monsters that the republicans do. They LIKE womensā€™ rights and LGBTQ rights to be under attack, because then they can drum up exactly the kind of sentiments in you right now to bully you and panic you and manipulate you and brow-beat and shame you to get you to give them a mandate of power while not having to do anything to earn it, and continuing to spiral everything towards and into and through fascism and genocide and nuclear brinksmanship imperialism because ā€œtheyā€™ll vote for us anyway ā€” weā€™re not the republicansā€
                      .
                      When in objective reality, they are the republicans. Weā€™re closer to WW3 than weā€™ve been in decades. military expansion and proxy wars and coups and mass prisons and police militarization and murder, and repressions of civil rights and free speech and protests, have all continued to get worse under the democrats. Cop City is happening under democrats. Biden not only didnā€™t close the border camps, but deregulated them and allowed them to be privatized for profit by private contractors. Biden brought in all the worst neo-con warmongers he could find, put a Chevron executive who defended the destruction of the Amazon and poisoning of Indigenous people to head his environmental executive, and continued the legacy of his President Obama whose entire cabinet was hand-picked by Citigroup (and we all remember him bailing out the banks)! And there is an active genocide, the most televized genocide in history, being financed and funded and armed by the US, and the supposed ā€œlesser evilā€ Biden went around congress twice to give them bombs and guns faster than even congress could do, hoping that Gaza would be finished off before the Elections. But because Trump is open and honest about his wanting to do what the democrats are already currently doing heā€™s somehow worse for Palestine so weā€™re shamed into supporting the current genocidaires who are covering up their crimes and lying about their crimes? The current genocidaires who, when protestors shout ā€œno to genocide, stop the genocideā€ are shouted down and smugly condescended to with ā€œIā€™m talking! You must want Trump to win!ā€ These people are better and Trump is worse? No, theyā€™re the same and will continue to bring us down the same path if we continue allowing them to.
                      .
                    • On false signaling: Who is telling you you should ā€œfalsely signal?ā€ Weā€™re saying the only option is to not give these people a mandate, and do everything we can to visibly starve them of their taken-for-granted margins and punish them for what theyā€™re doing and put our vote toward people with principles and elevate them, with the votes the democrats need, so we are un-ignorable if the democrats ever want power again. If youā€™re capable, join a socialist organization like the PSL who is working on the ground to fill in gaps and help people, but at the very least vote for them too and push them up in numbers and visibility, and force the establishment that is and will continue to bring about all of the things you and your loved ones are afraid of unless they are forced not to. And one of the simplest ways to force them to stop this genocidal cruise-control and reorient or break the duopoly is by starving the only face of the duopoly-of-exploiters that requires your working class margin to win. Either they reorient politically, or a huge amount of people who donā€™t have any illusions about the republicans either are now becoming much more radical and serious, where the PSL will be prepared to bring them on board and tell them why this happens and what is to be done.
                      .
                    • On what 2016 accomplished and being called names by our enemies: You are mistaken, the Clintonite liberals who chided and brow-beat people who were justifiably disgusted with the flagrantly corrupt and imperialist bloodthirst of both candidates and backed Bernie, and saw how even the liberal Bernie was treated, didnā€™t just then become democrats again. They became COMMUNISTS. Many of them were radicalized by seeing and experiencing their illusions about bourgeois democracy be ripped down and spat on by the ruling class. Many werenā€™t even really part of the political ā€œleftā€ until this happened, and 2016 caused the left to grow exponentially and caused socialism to grow in astronomical proportions compared to how it had in decades. I saw it, I was in the middle of it. This election is doing the same and more, watching the democrats act so viciously and shamelessly in their bloodshed, corruption and lies, and disregard for life and liberty of the people. None of us ever had illusions about Republicans; they never pandered to the working class. The Democrats are supposed to do that but have failed to even remember how to pretend, and are bringing more and more people to the left. Which is why we need to stay ahead of them to grow socialism, to build the change we need from the ground up, and actually resist fascism, which is not resisted in the ballot box between two corporate-imperialist-genocidaire parties which are converging together into fascism which is growing regardless, itā€™s resisted on all fronts.
                      .
                      Let them call you whatever they want. Why decide what youā€™re going to do politically based on what your enemies say? They will call you worse than that. You should take pride in your enemies calling you such petty names knowing they are throwing ideological tantrums. The more you antagonize the system and its status quo, the more the system and their supporters will demonize you. Why do you think communist was made a dirty word in the US through a century of active red scare propaganda and COINTELPRO operations? It wasnā€™t because they were telling any kind of truth, it was because they were scared of people liking us, and of joining us. Of divesting from their system and building our own. There is zero reason to let the people who hate you and want you to be compliant dictate your politics. Instead do what is intelligent and incisive to jam a crowbar into the contradictions of the system, and work for those working class people (who know better than you do and have known for longer the ruling class and their petty-bourgeois college liberals are full of shit and the names they throw mean nothing) so we can all with our collective weight pry the contradiction apart.

                    And remember that the more absurd the demonization gets and the more active work we do to show their lies and hypocrisy, the more their demonization of us becomes their undoing. Like now conservative reactionaries are calling everyone to the left of Thatcher a communist. This didnā€™t make communism scarier to the working class ā€” it made it so now people are less instinctually terrified of the idea, or think ā€œthat doesnā€™t sound rightā€ and read some Marx and realize he had a very prescient analysis of what we can all see around us. There are more communists now than there were in the 80s, and weā€™re growing. You can help in being a part of that, or let our enemies and their liberal minions shame and cow you into submission and compliance based on fears that theyā€™ve implanted on you that are only telling half the story, and in doing so helping those fears come true.

          • AmericaDelendaEst [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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            Because she knows that Palestine isnā€™t most Americanā€™s top issue, so she can afford to lose the few people that would go through with a boycott.

            So youā€™re saying sheā€™s a fully cognizant sociopath? Wow great selling point, liberal