Wait, I’ve seen this one before

  • PugJesus@lemmy.worldM
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    16
    arrow-down
    1
    ·
    1 month ago

    In support of your point, here’s a nice little quote from Emperor Claudius, who was also a scholar and a historian:

    What was the ruin of Sparta and Athens, but this, that mighty as they were in war, they spurned from them as aliens those whom they had conquered? Our founder Romulus, on the other hand, was so wise that he fought as enemies and then hailed as fellow-citizens several nations on the very same day. Strangers have reigned over us. That freedmen’s sons should be intrusted with public offices is not, as many wrongly think, a sudden innovation, but was a common practice in the old commonwealth. But, it will be said, we have fought with the Senones. I suppose then that the Volsci and Aequi never stood in array against us. Our city was taken by the Gauls. Well, we also gave hostages to the Etruscans, and passed under the yoke of the Samnites. On the whole, if you review all our wars, never has one been finished in a shorter time than that with the Gauls. Thenceforth they have preserved an unbroken and loyal peace. United as they now are with us by manners, education, and intermarriage, let them bring us their gold and their wealth rather than enjoy it in isolation. Everything, Senators, which we now hold to be of the highest antiquity, was once new. Plebeian magistrates came after patrician; Latin magistrates after plebeian; magistrates of other Italian peoples after Latin. This practice too will establish itself, and what we are this day justifying by precedents, will be itself a precedent.

    I have a fantastic book on the subject, Imperial Ideology and Provincial Loyalty in the Roman Empire, highly recommend.

      • PugJesus@lemmy.worldM
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        6
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        1 month ago

        The more things change, the more they stay the same, right?

        More seriously, it’s one of the reasons I adore Rome so much - many of the records and systems depict something that feels modern, asking the same fundamental questions and getting into the same arguments, as we do today.

        And it’s always hilarious that bureaucracy is timeless.

        • CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          3
          ·
          edit-2
          1 month ago

          Yeah, exactly! Nothing else comes close. The medieval and early-modern periods are just very different (and non-civilisational, I guess?), and then modern industrial civilisation grows up on top of it before the old is fully gone everywhere. If you want eerie parallels, you do Rome.

          The history of unrelated civilisations on other continents seems inaccessible in English, or in the case of the Americas just poorly preserved in general, thanks to said early-modern Europeans.

          • PugJesus@lemmy.worldM
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            4
            arrow-down
            1
            ·
            edit-2
            1 month ago

            Stuff on other continents seems inaccessible in English, or in the case of the Americas just poorly preserved in general, thanks to said early-modern Europeans.

            God, what the Spanish did to Mesoamerican codices will forever haunt me as a student of history. Just pure barbarism, literal book-burning.

    • lennivelkant
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      5
      ·
      1 month ago

      Claudius is a madlad all around. The gall to write an apparently too honest history while the subject of that history is still alive and your emperor is amazing.

      • PugJesus@lemmy.worldM
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        2
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        1 month ago

        It’s a shame his writings haven’t survived, I’m sure they’d be fascinating.

      • PugJesus@lemmy.worldM
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        3
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        1 month ago

        After losing the book in an apartment the size of a thimble and, after some effort, re-finding it in this hellhole, I managed to give it a look-over! It’s more accessible than I remember, even. Very friendly, even if your only background is reading a beginner’s guide to Roman history or the like. Detailed, yes, but with explanations of any context that would be unfamiliar to your average layman.

        • AnarchistArtificer@slrpnk.net
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          2
          ·
          1 month ago

          Awesome, that sounds like I’d enjoy checking it out (and not just because if I didn’t, I’d feel bad about the effort you put into finding it)

          Tangentially related: It’s unfortunate and possibly ironic that the people who would most benefit from learning some history are often ill-equipped with the skills needed to study history. My late best friend was a historian, and as a scientist, something I cherished in our friendship was the insight into the historian’s perspective. It felt like a jarringly different way of viewing the world, but that’s why it felt useful. He’d probably feel proud (and a little smug) to see that my interest in history has lasted even though he wasn’t here to feed it.

      • PugJesus@lemmy.worldM
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        2
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        1 month ago

        I was going to say yes, but let me find it so I can reread a chapter or two and be sure. It’s not for beginners, but if you’re looking into niches like the question of ideology and regional loyalty, it reasonably presumes that you know what the Roman Empire is and its basic aspects.