Update: so, the responses this far are almost universally that these bots have been blocked by users of the community. There is also a general disinterest in defederating, which is on brand.
You guys wanna do a poll or something or?
Iād like to lead my thoughts with a quote from the admins regarding bots within lemm.ee:
āBots must not be responsible for the majority of content in any communityā
There are two entire instances that immediately spring to mind, zerobytes.monsterās b0t user, and lemmit.online. Their content is quite literally 90% bot content with 0 engagement, and they spam constantly.
Now here at lemm.ee we generally donāt defend from stuff, thatās actually why I prefer this instance. Yes, you can block the bot users and that solves the problem, but hear me out:
These bots ruin the experience on Lemmy for new users. They spam so many posts, attempting to block them from a mobile app will usually crash the app. If youāre a new user coming to Lemm.ee sorting by all, you see tons and tons of empty posts.
Zerobytes is particularly egregious because it doesnāt even repost actual content, just thousands and thousands of links to Reddit posts. Itās a spam instance, period, and I feel strongly about this.
Lemmit.online isnāt quite as bad, but itās an entire instance dedicated to spam reposting everything from Reddit. All the posts have zero engagement, and the comment value is gone so everything decent gets buried.
Yes there are ways around this on an individual user level, but then youāre creating a context where thereās even less engagement in the vast majority of ānewā posts.
Anyway, thems my thoughts. Repost bots are stupid, one that drive traffic to Reddit are even worse. Thoughts?
Thanks for posting this, OP.
I have heard this negative feedback regarding the repost instances many times from several users, and conversely, I have not heard any positive feedback about those instances at all.
At the moment, my perception is that these instances universally disliked here, and as they are objectively having a negative effect on lemm.ee through effectively creating a ton of spam without any real discussion, perhaps we should indeed consider defederating. I would really appreciate if people who actually enjoy content from those instances could share their thoughts here!
Perhaps it would be useful to look at the subscriber numbers for these communities? Maybe contact some of those subscribers directly, since they are the ones who requested the content in the first place? I would venture that people interested in a non-interactive firehose of links is probably a lurker and wouldnāt respond here.
If a lot of these communities have one subscriber, It could be that someone subscribed just to get the community on All.
Iām generally of the view that defederation to curate content is a bad idea. Iāve seen suggestions to have the ability for an instance to exclude certain communities from All, or maybe Lemmy needs a semi curated Popular feed like Reddit.
I know I accidentally subbed to some when I was looking for communities to add to my feed. I need to go through and remove them now that I know what they are.
Thanks for boosting the discussion, Iām curious to see if anyone enjoys these bots as well. Thanks for all your efforts š
I would vote nay for defederating from them. While I personally found their content annoying, someone else may actually find it uesful. I blocked the users, and the problem was solved. This issue may arise again, however, if more spam users pop up on these instances than a single user could reasonably be expected to deal with. This could possibly, again, be fixed by the user blocking the instance, but this would have to wait for user-blocking of instances to be implemented.
Im generally on the side of reposting for archival and continuation. however, the āthrow it out thereā half-assed ness and lack of transparency of these services make it a no deal. If I were to remake one (and ive thoght about it) a simple āupload and doneā approach is discusting. These bots (clarified: probably should create their own instance for the task) need communal love and care to be anything but āa fire hose of contentā. I propose the following:
- Allow the community to control most aspects of the bot behavor.
- Do not upload/add to queue unless initated by a lemmy user
- Allow users to vote on post deletion, add resistance or disable if there are many non bot comments.
- Allow users to vote on the botās upload speed and what gets priority (up/down vote this comment)
- Pin an admin post to act like a āsettings menuā for the project
- Pin an unintrucive admin comment in every post to vote on actions for the post
- Use as little boilerplate as possable. Hide in spoiler what you cant avoid.
- Use one bot account for uploads, one blocked user blocks the whole service.
- Put human and machine readable metadata of the original and repost in a spoiler.
- Use 8 or so well labeled āsorting bot accountsā to aproimate upvotes of the source relative to its negboring ccomments. Should be no more sway than Ā±8 votes. Bot votes Should be disclosed in the metadata.
- Call the bot somthing like āreddit archiveā put sourceās username in the post/comment body
- Allow off instance admins to moderate bot posts
- Prefix all communities with somthing like "auto: " for transparency
- Allow partial reuploads and omition of threads for admin/data cleanup purposes.
Im generally on the side of reposting for archival and continuation.
Unless an instance has been built with the intention of archiving information, I donāt think that it should be automatically expected that an instance would be in favor of archiving posts from other platforms ā there already exists services that archive internet data, and they are better equipped to do so. An instance should outline in their rules whether or not they support such types of posts.
I generally agree, ill add that to the post.
Edit: oh, it was written but poorly explained that it should be its own instance.
Allow off instance admins to moderate bot posts
I would really appreciate if people who actually enjoy content from those instances could share their thoughts here!
Well thatās the trick, isnāt it? They donāt engage with the bot posts, if they were enjoying them then wouldnāt they engage?
One counterpoint is that these bots offer a way to ābrowse Reddit contentā without giving Reddit anything. And if browsing posts is the only thing one is after, one could enjoy the content but not interact with it, not even an upvote nor a subscription (to the repost community).
However, I donāt know of any way of measuring such interactions other than people telling us that they do.
Personally speaking though, the best, or worst, or perhaps spiciest part of reddit posts are in the comments. Just the post, without the comments providing the meat of it to me is kinda empty.
Iām fine either way since I rarely, if ever, encounter such Reddit reposts from bots. Iāve never subscribed to such, and I almost never encounter them in the wilds of āAll.ā
I vote nay to defederation (as I almost always will). If a problem can be solved simply by blocking two bots, then there is no need whatsoever to resort to defederation.
I understand your ānew userā problem argument, but I think itās really a non-issue. Lemmy already has a much higher learning curve than a site like reddit, and I think the number of people who arenāt put off by Lemmyās learning curve but are put off having to figure out how to block two users is pretty close to the empty set.
Possible alternative that doesnāt involve defederating: Banning those two bot accounts from lemm.ee. That way, any users on those sites would still be able to participate in posts here.
ā¦ Though, Iām not sure how many of those there actually are. Looking at the sidebar, zerobytes.monster has had 18 users in the last 6 months, and lemmit.online a grand total of 1 user in the last 6 months.
i donāt think you can subscribe to lemmit.online, the only user is the bot, and the only purpose of the instance is to archive stuff.
You can always ban users. Still, instances with a culture specifically promoting those users (such as instances dedicated to reposting from Reddit, or a hypothetical instance that is hell-bent on trolling everyone) will make sure you have a steady amount of work maintaining that banning policy indefinitely. Defederating makes a lot more sense because moderator time and attention are finite resources.
This is actually a super good idea
I donāt personally find these bot posts useful, and I think they clutter up the All timeline, but they arenāt being deceitful or anything, and there may be folks who find these posts useful. I like the lemm.ee federation policy of generally allowing everything unless itās full of bad actors.
Itās annoying because in some instances a repost bot makes sense, specifically where content and comments are a bit more asynchronous.
Some kinds of news for example- having an article reposted isnāt really terrible because weāre all just going to the same article then posting comments on our respective platforms.
But posts where op is expecting any kind of reply are dead in the water once theyāre posted here, they just take up space and clutter up the timeline.
This. Cross posting from /r/AITA and /r/relationships is worse than pointless.
Repost bots are no better than spam bots IMHO, but I think defederation needs to be based on bad behavior by the admins, not the accounts themselves.
In the case of lemmit.online, yeah, they are creating a bunch of communities that ONLY the bot can post in, and the posts get no replies because whatās the point in replying to TIFU or AITA if OP will never see it?
Thatās clearly the fault of the admin, but OTOH, blocking bot@lemmit.online solves the problem without full defederation.
Thereās a food community I read that gets spambots from lemm.ee all the time only posting affiliate links.
Those get reported for spam and blocked, but itās clearly not the policy of lemm.ee so no reason to defederate.
Iām going to keep echoing this argument: just blocking the user is a shitty solution, because now new users are going to be alienated, especially if they browse by new.
Your example of spambots posting from lemm.ee break down fast because, you said it: we ban the spam bot. Lemmit.online is nothing but spam, all the time
If lemmit.online were a community within lemm.ee, it would be removed
Oh, I definitely see the argument, but Iād start by blocking everything by the bot, then if the admins decide to skirt the block with bot2@lemmit.online then the only real answer is defederation.
āLet me tell you about this thing called Lemmy, itās great! But first, hereās a list of users you need to block to make it useable. Also, you have to do it from a web browser on a decent computer with decent internet because youāre going to try and load a profile with 1000000 posts.
Once youāve jumped through those hoops youāll be able to see the actual content thatās posted on Lemmyā
^this is not a good way to bring someone into the fediverse
Blocking them on Voyager on Android works for me. :)
But I think itās reasonable to tell people to use the search to find communities that interest them, curate your home feed, and be aware that diving into the āAll Federated Contentā feed will show you stuff thatās a) not particularly useful or b) potentially offensive to your sensibilities.
It took me way longer to get fed up with bot@lemmit.online than Iād really like to admit, and I only blocked them when it became clear they werenāt going to stop. I could see other people enjoying the feedā¦ but then why donāt they comment? š¤
Voyager on iPhone shits the bed when trying to open their user profile, zerobyte.monster is the one I havenāt been able to block yet
I had the same experience. I had to use the lemm.ee default web interface to block the two repost bots.
Huh, I went looking for it just now and canāt find it, so either I already blocked it or maybe lemmy.one already defederated from it? ĀÆā \ā _ā (ā ćā )ā _ā /ā ĀÆ
But yeahā¦ bad administration needs defederation. Bad users need blocking/reporting.
lemmy.world got a bunch of heat from defederating from hexbear pre-emptively, but it seems like that was the right call. Then they got ddossed after defederating from pirate communities. Not saying thatās CAUSATIVE, just āinterestingā. ;)
Yeah, I donāt want to defed from hexbear or pirate communities though theyāre fun
But I think itās reasonable to tell people to use the search to find communities that interest them, curate your home feed, and be aware that diving into the āAll Federated Contentā feed will show you stuff thatās a) not particularly useful or b) potentially offensive to your sensibilities.
I was just using lemmy explorer to look for communities and didnāt realize some were just bots cross posting until I looked again later in my feed. I was disappointed.
Iām at the point where I think all bot accounts need to just be banned from Lemmy. If weāre trying to build engagement, a constant stream of reposts or a straight up rss feed is not helping.
My 2 cents: Ideally, there could be other options like:
- Better default sorting algorithm that penalizes those bot posts.
- Filters for global feeds (mainly ānewā in this case): you could still see their posts in their communities, but not on the global feeds.
- (?) Default list of blocked users when you sign up on a given instance: you could unblock them if you want, but new users will not see their spam.
Iām of the opinion that defederating should be the last option but, given the current features, I donāt see any better way :(.
Personally just my experience. The respost bot lowers my experience, and Iāve used lemmy less because of it
Again - why are people treating defederation as this huge, dramatic freaking thing? (I actually think I know exactly why, but still curious to hear the rationale. Dazzle me, please.)
āThis newsletter is shite, Iāll stop subscribingā. That is the level of non-drama involved. Some instances post things that are categorically uninteresting, or have users that are significantly unable to behave. Defederating them is not a punishment or ethical consideration in itself - itās just āI donāt want this automatically replicated onto my instance as a matter of routineā. Even if it werenāt, the ethical onus would be precisely equally on the other part to behave acceptably once federated with other instances. That is what federation means.
Defederation is a big deal because itās a solution that acts like a bomb, indiscriminate and destructive.
āI donāt like thisā great. Lots of people donāt like stuff, and they shouldnāt sub to stuff they donāt like, and unsub or block users and communities they donāt like.
The problem is that someone is making a final decision for everyone on that instance, about everyone on the other instance.
Person A on instance A doesnāt like something Person B on instance B said. So they call for defederate. Suddenly, nobody on Instance A can see anything anyone on Instance B says and vice versa. Person C on instance A wasnāt offended, Person D on Instance A liked Person Bās content. Persons E and F on Instance B are perfectly fine people who never did anything wrong.
But nope, Person A defederates, and now nobody on either instance can talk unless they want to either hop around instances trying to find instances that are neutral to both(and there is such a thing as āguilt by associationā on the fediverse so Instances might defederate just for not defederating with Instance B), or theyāll need to have a bunch of accounts to get onto a bunch of different parts of the fediverse.
Defederation in anything but the most extreme of circumstances is actively damaging to the fediverse. Prior to the reddit migration, most lemmy instances were highly trigger happy with defederation, and fairly ban happy too. Thus, the system just stagnated. People still actively avoid the threadiverse because nobody wants to be walking on eggshells wondering what incorrect political opinion is going to get everyone on their instance dumped.
Itās particularly bad with lemmy, because communities are server-centered instead of being decentralized. If youāre subscribed to a bunch of communities on an instance and that instance defederates from you, then youāre not only disconnected from the people on that instance, youāre disconnected from all the other people on all the other instances connected to that community.
So rather than āIām unsubscribing from this newsletter I donāt likeā, itās āI donāt like some of the articles in this newsletter, so Iām going to force everyone on my block to unsubscribe whether they want to or notā
why are people treating defederation as this huge, dramatic freaking thing? āThis newsletter is shite, Iāll stop subscribingā.
The problem is that itās not one single person deciding to unsubscribe to a newsletter - itās one single person deciding to unsubscribe hundreds to thousands of other people unilaterally.
I donāt want other people deciding what I am or am not allowed to see, which is why Iām on lemm.ee in the first place. There are plenty of other instances out there that are more than happy to make all of your decisions for you if thatās what you want, but this is one of the very few larger instances not like that, and Iād prefer to keep it that way.
Itās cool to block protonmail because a lot of bitcoin scams are from there until your nan gets her email address there
User of those bots here:
I think this whole problem stems from the lack of tools to configure bot experience. On mastodon, for example, bots can post āunlistedā posts ā which donāt show up in the main feed. Only subscribed people receive their posts. On Lemmy thereās no such privacy toggle and admins are forced to shoot a fly with cruise missiles ā by defederating instances
Iād understand if you folks decide to defederate from bot instances however Iād urge you to escalate this discussion upstream to LemmyNet github for following features
- post privacy i.e. intended reach
- moderation tools to handle bots activity en masse
This would be far more lasting impact on quality of global fediverse feed and efficient use of adminsā time IMO
Thus far youāre the only person in the thread Iāve seen that uses the bots. How do you implement them and how do they improve your Lemmy experience?
Firstly, I totally understand people who find reposts annoying and I have blocked few of those because theyāre simply irrelevant to me
lemmit online / hackernews reposts
- those help drive inspiration for post making: I can snatch best ideas and post my own version on lemmy
Itās especially helpful when youāre maintaining inactive community where youāre the only poster ā since inactive subs are seen as dead ones. - not my use case, but I see those instances as ability to combat FOMO for the users who just switched over to lemmy and getting used to its quirks. No need to snoop to reddit if its content is in your feed either way
- mastodon got almost a dozen of such repost instances from twitter and itās enormous bonus in transition from birdsite
- if you see lemmit online posts then someone on your instance wants this content/subscribed to it ā it doesnāt appear out of nowhere
controversial opinion
tbh I wish each lemmy sub would have its own bot to post content stolen from other places of internet. Almost all popular websites have ones and they do bring large audiences. Be it just memes, science news or animal photos: people stick with a website because they can regularly get their dopamine hit. āNormal peopleā i.e. lurkers usually donāt care about post originality. People simply want enough good quality content
QoL bots
- tldr bots are generally helpful for long reads\vids and I wish they would be available as option on post creation page
- bots for linking to invidious instances / archive.ph nonpaywalled articles: just saves time
P.S. as a bonus hereās a page about bots that wikipedia uses to streamline and automate work Wikipedia bots - Wikipedia
- those help drive inspiration for post making: I can snatch best ideas and post my own version on lemmy
I find those 2 bots just spam
For what itās worth you can just block the two bots that are spamming reposts and youāll never see these posts again.
attempting to block them from a mobile app will usually crash the app.
I havenāt had this experience, it blocked just fine.
But would you say that blocking them improved your Lemmy experience?
For sure, I had 0 interest in repost bots.
Well yeah, of course. If you donāt want to see them then just block them.
Probably not saying anything new here, but my impression is that thereās two different problems, or rather levels of problem, to deal with:
For one point, Lemmy still does not have the level of activity that Reddit has, nor the types of content; this is particularly relevant for more niche subjects. I already made two magazines (ācommunities but on kbinā) for example and Iām still the only poster. It sucks, and it disincentivizes posting more. Discoverability and migrability are two aspects that a repost bot can help with, because if you have an interesting subject to discuss thatās already come up on Reddit (because, simply statistics, itās so much more likely that itād come up on Reddit), you can still have the content here and discuss it here. It can, eventually and hopefully, help bootstrap the local community to the level that a repost bot wouldnāt be needed.
Thereās also the issue that for the above to have value, a repost bot has to actually repost not just the opening post but also enough comments to open up a subject of discussion. So less ārepostā, more āmirrorā. A bot that only posts a link to a Reddit thread, or a copy of an opening post that usually only has a link to an external site anyway, such as news posts or art posts, is of not much help for anything.
Ironically, this means (to me at least) a repost bot needs to be more active to be useful.
Now, can people just crosspost or repost manually? Sure, but a bot helps with that. Not everyone is that invested on having to start conversations, not everyone has to be a ācontent generation soldierā: when I go to a library, 90% of the time is to read a book, not to make annotations on their books (before I get kicked out) let alone to write my own book.
What does that mean for the lemmy perspective of things, from my end? Well, I donāt think defederating from an instance that also happens to repost Reddit (or whoever else, say, Wikimedia) content as part of their normal operations is a good idea, because by definition you are closing down to much more than that. Someone somewhere else can have come up the idea to discuss subject A; and we should not punish our own users for not having had the idea of doing so ourselves. Defederating from an instance that is dedicated to reposts, and that only does that, however, would have more sense, the more if they also engage in other spam behaviour.
I think personally a better solution, if Lemmy can implement it or already does, is to de-prioritize link posts in the All and Local views, and have the option in searches to sort or categorize posts by the level of interaction from local users (eg.: ratio of local users discussing a post that has been made to the local instance) besides the ābest ofā options (which I assume are valued merely by upvotes?) in search.
Anyone using Android having trouble blocking a user try the Liftoff app. It allows user blocking from the main page via the 3 dots menu. Iāve blocked a bunch of these annoying repost bots and it greatly enhances the Lemmy experience.
Assuming āopinions wantedā includes those from other instances, hereās a very sh.itjust.works take regarding those Reddit repost botsā¦
- It might have a legitimate use as a way to read Reddit without visiting Reddit, as others have posted, on the other hand I struggle to see the value of posting questions but not answers from the likes of r/buildapc. It feels like itās trying to funnel people to Reddit to see the full discussion, which I would classify as commercial advertisement.
- This traffic is staying on its home instance, theyāre not posting to our communities where theyāre subject to our instance rules.
- Itās not exactly one user in one community but itās not everyone including the admins either; thereās other legitimate traffic happening there, so there may be other means available.
On my home instance, this would require a proposal, discussion, and vote in the Agora; it doesnāt qualify for unilateral admin action. I suspect the vote would land Nay; Iāve seen and participated in a couple āHey whatās up with those reposts from Reddit?ā threads, but nothing came of it. So I think itās below our threshold for action. Do with that what you will.
