But in practice, if men, for example, are the only people hired, they tend to be the only people who get experience, making them always the most qualified for the job.
Extra Facts: For jobs behind the camera, there are something like, only 13% of women employed in the film industry. Not all industries are equal so your through fits really well in some places and less so in others.
For jobs behind the camera, there are something like, only 13% of women employed in the film industry.
That doesn’t necessarily imply sexism at all, note. If it turns out women are just 6 times less likely than men to want to have these jobs, then this percentage would be 13% in a perfect non-sexist world. (Though 13% is concerningly low; the percentage of women that go into computer science is around 20-25% and that’s one of the strongest effects. Plausibly the remaining 1.5-2x difference here is due to sexism; I can buy filmmaking being one of the most sexist industries).
I can’t speak for the whole industry, but I’m a person who wanted to make movies and started out as a film major. When you walk into a room as a student and it’s all men, you want to quit because you feel like you aren’t supposed to be there.
As a developer now, I still feel this way, but I’m a grown up now and I just ignore that feeling.
I think women want to do these jobs but they feel like they aren’t allowed to, or are directly told they aren’t allowed to.
13% is the average of all behind the camera jobs. Composers, cinematographers, writers, directors. There are more women in writing positions and there are very few female composers.
If a corporation wants free money then they can staff a diverse workforce. It’s literally always been a choice.
Only the idiots are convinced this is a real issue at all. It’s a distraction from actual problems in the world that negativity effect people.
DEI laws were required to be created during integration because non whites were being denied loans, jobs, and houses based on race, those are the real DEI laws they want to repeal along side diversity subsidies.
BTW incentivizing diversity measurably improves the wealth/income gap between whites/non whites today and helps upward mobility, which is why they still exist.
I would argue that if your goal is to fix systemic racism, a much more effective approach would be to target the pipeline problem early on by focusing on improving education systems in poor/racial minority communities. Their difficulties in competing later on in life stem directly (and I would argue most strenuously) from disadvantages they experience early on. If companies see improvements in the resumes of racial minorities, they will naturally be more likely to hire them; I would argue that their greed for having the best employees will override the racial biases of White CEOs and HR managers.
Better resumes are good, but there are plenty of studies showing bias towards the name alone on a resume and that a white-sounding name gets more bites than names more associated with a minority race.
People have biases, conscious or not. Did you know that women’s positions in orchestras increased greatly after switching to blind auditions? And I can’t find a legit source in 2 min of searching, but there’s also been indication that the sound of high heels affects hiring outcomes even in blind auditions.
Example studies on names and hiring outcomes: 2004, 2023, 2024 (even the “best” companies still showed a 3% bias towards white candidates vs 24% for the worst), 2016
So yeah, there are a fuckton of steps to addressing systemic racism and starting early in the process is a critical step. But the narrative that an equivalent resume is all that’s needed to close the gap is false and dangerous.
Oh, I agree, and I wasn’t trying to suggest what I wrote above was all that’s needed. I’m a big proponent of racially blind admissions/hiring processes. Exclude any data that could be construed as being race-identifying. The more we can force admissions/hiring to base their choices solely on performance-relative metrics alone, the better.
However, I have to admit that such a goal is a bit unrealistic. Race-identifying information will likely always find a way into admissions/hiring processes, simply because of interviews. I don’t claim to know how to create the perfect system, obviously. This is a complex problem that people a lot smarter and more educated than I have been striving to solve for decades.
But I think that raising people up from the very bottom of society is still the best approach, the most efficient way to do that is by focusing on disadvantages experienced early in life. If you can level the playing field during kindergarten, you provide a more equal launch pad for every stage of life thereafter; keep working up from there and we’ll eventually wind up with a more equal result in adulthood.
Eh. Yes, if you’re looking at the data from efficacy studies alone. However, I would argue that DEI programs create political turmoil that creates harm to society that these studies don’t take into account. Addressing systemic racism is important, but DEI approaches have created understandable division about majority groups being discriminated against in the service of fixing the problem. I think focusing on wealth inequality has the overlapping effect of helping minority racial groups while sidestepping the race politics inherent to DEI programs that give fuel to racist groups in society.
Only in the same sense that most political opinions are “manufactured” by mainstream news outlets. It doesn’t really matter. DEI’s problems are valid criticisms, and you can’t simply dismiss them because they’re highlighted by right-wing outlets.
I never said addressing systemic racism was limited to addressing said issues in educational attainment alone. Clearly, it’s a multifaceted problem that requires a broad range of fixes.
I would argue that if your goal is to fix systemic racism, a much more effective approach would be to target the pipeline problem early on by focusing on improving education systems in poor/racial minority communities.
Well the Republicans are getting rid of DEI and the Department of Education.
So our education is about to get a lot worse, but at least minorities will have a harder time getting jobs!
Republicans’ motivations for getting rid of DEI certainly aren’t mine. Believe it or not, there are people out there who disagree with the DEI approach but still agree that systemic racism/sexism in society is a problem that needs addressing. Don’t lump me in with the GOP.
So systemic racism still effects opportunities of minoritiy communities up to today and you understand that.
How do we counteract this systemic racism without systemic changes? You want to change things without changing anything. Making people educated doesn’t fix racism.
What if I told you that DEI was the result of an educated society making the most effective changes to the system to counteract systemic racism?
How about we hire and promote people who are correct for the job, regardless of their gender or race?
Because the people who are ‘correct’ for the job always end up being white guys who are direct relatives of someone in management
Fully agree in an ideal world.
But in practice, if men, for example, are the only people hired, they tend to be the only people who get experience, making them always the most qualified for the job.
Extra Facts: For jobs behind the camera, there are something like, only 13% of women employed in the film industry. Not all industries are equal so your through fits really well in some places and less so in others.
That doesn’t necessarily imply sexism at all, note. If it turns out women are just 6 times less likely than men to want to have these jobs, then this percentage would be 13% in a perfect non-sexist world. (Though 13% is concerningly low; the percentage of women that go into computer science is around 20-25% and that’s one of the strongest effects. Plausibly the remaining 1.5-2x difference here is due to sexism; I can buy filmmaking being one of the most sexist industries).
I can’t speak for the whole industry, but I’m a person who wanted to make movies and started out as a film major. When you walk into a room as a student and it’s all men, you want to quit because you feel like you aren’t supposed to be there.
As a developer now, I still feel this way, but I’m a grown up now and I just ignore that feeling.
I think women want to do these jobs but they feel like they aren’t allowed to, or are directly told they aren’t allowed to.
13% is the average of all behind the camera jobs. Composers, cinematographers, writers, directors. There are more women in writing positions and there are very few female composers.
Geena Davis Institute and Women in Film if it’s something you’d like to know about.
Oh also, Geena Davis Institute does a lot of great research on how men and boys are portrayed in film too. It’s not just about women’s problems.
Sorry, I remember one more thing (I used to give a talk about equality in media but it’s been awhile).
Before films needed financing and big budgets, women dominated the film industry and were pioneers. Women ran the silent film industry.
https://www.shondaland.com/watch/a29216115/women-old-hollywood-power/
Suggesting that women don’t want to work in a fully bro-culture environment isn’t really the best arguement you could make.
DEI didn’t force anyone to hire anybody
If a corporation wants free money then they can staff a diverse workforce. It’s literally always been a choice.
Only the idiots are convinced this is a real issue at all. It’s a distraction from actual problems in the world that negativity effect people.
DEI laws were required to be created during integration because non whites were being denied loans, jobs, and houses based on race, those are the real DEI laws they want to repeal along side diversity subsidies.
BTW incentivizing diversity measurably improves the wealth/income gap between whites/non whites today and helps upward mobility, which is why they still exist.
As long as you’re on board with systemic racism, sure. DEI programs were created to address historic discrimination against minorities.
Ok with it? I think that’s pretty much the number one goal.
I would argue that if your goal is to fix systemic racism, a much more effective approach would be to target the pipeline problem early on by focusing on improving education systems in poor/racial minority communities. Their difficulties in competing later on in life stem directly (and I would argue most strenuously) from disadvantages they experience early on. If companies see improvements in the resumes of racial minorities, they will naturally be more likely to hire them; I would argue that their greed for having the best employees will override the racial biases of White CEOs and HR managers.
The same people removing DEI legal protections are also gutting the education system.
Yes, and I don’t support them.
Better resumes are good, but there are plenty of studies showing bias towards the name alone on a resume and that a white-sounding name gets more bites than names more associated with a minority race.
People have biases, conscious or not. Did you know that women’s positions in orchestras increased greatly after switching to blind auditions? And I can’t find a legit source in 2 min of searching, but there’s also been indication that the sound of high heels affects hiring outcomes even in blind auditions.
Example studies on names and hiring outcomes: 2004, 2023, 2024 (even the “best” companies still showed a 3% bias towards white candidates vs 24% for the worst), 2016
So yeah, there are a fuckton of steps to addressing systemic racism and starting early in the process is a critical step. But the narrative that an equivalent resume is all that’s needed to close the gap is false and dangerous.
Oh, I agree, and I wasn’t trying to suggest what I wrote above was all that’s needed. I’m a big proponent of racially blind admissions/hiring processes. Exclude any data that could be construed as being race-identifying. The more we can force admissions/hiring to base their choices solely on performance-relative metrics alone, the better.
However, I have to admit that such a goal is a bit unrealistic. Race-identifying information will likely always find a way into admissions/hiring processes, simply because of interviews. I don’t claim to know how to create the perfect system, obviously. This is a complex problem that people a lot smarter and more educated than I have been striving to solve for decades.
But I think that raising people up from the very bottom of society is still the best approach, the most efficient way to do that is by focusing on disadvantages experienced early in life. If you can level the playing field during kindergarten, you provide a more equal launch pad for every stage of life thereafter; keep working up from there and we’ll eventually wind up with a more equal result in adulthood.
That’s one factor, yes. Both is better.
Eh. Yes, if you’re looking at the data from efficacy studies alone. However, I would argue that DEI programs create political turmoil that creates harm to society that these studies don’t take into account. Addressing systemic racism is important, but DEI approaches have created understandable division about majority groups being discriminated against in the service of fixing the problem. I think focusing on wealth inequality has the overlapping effect of helping minority racial groups while sidestepping the race politics inherent to DEI programs that give fuel to racist groups in society.
The turmoil is manufactured. Nobody actually gives a shit except Fox News being livid about companies having the woke, and people who regurgitate it.
Only in the same sense that most political opinions are “manufactured” by mainstream news outlets. It doesn’t really matter. DEI’s problems are valid criticisms, and you can’t simply dismiss them because they’re highlighted by right-wing outlets.
Black people with good education are still more likely to be shot by police or go to jail.
I never said addressing systemic racism was limited to addressing said issues in educational attainment alone. Clearly, it’s a multifaceted problem that requires a broad range of fixes.
You really fucking implied it.
You can externalize your assumptions all you want; it doesn’t change the fact that interpersonal communication is the responsibility of all involved.
I.e., grow up and stop winging about minor details on internet forums.
You literally said that it’s “more effective” to give Black people better resumes than to stop systematic racism at the top.
Yes, but I was referring solely to DEI programs, which have nothing to do with systemic racism in police brutality or judicial prejudice areas.
Well the Republicans are getting rid of DEI and the Department of Education.
So our education is about to get a lot worse, but at least minorities will have a harder time getting jobs!
Republicans’ motivations for getting rid of DEI certainly aren’t mine. Believe it or not, there are people out there who disagree with the DEI approach but still agree that systemic racism/sexism in society is a problem that needs addressing. Don’t lump me in with the GOP.
So systemic racism still effects opportunities of minoritiy communities up to today and you understand that.
How do we counteract this systemic racism without systemic changes? You want to change things without changing anything. Making people educated doesn’t fix racism.
What if I told you that DEI was the result of an educated society making the most effective changes to the system to counteract systemic racism?
yes that would be the logic behind dropping DEI programs