• Jimmycrackcrack@lemmy.ml
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    1 year ago

    I don’t like to think that I or we really can’t imagine a better system but I don’t think it’s completely unrealistic to say something like best we got. I say this only because things like communism and all their promises can only really come about through a revolution and the price in blood is jaw dropping. So much killing. It also almost certainly means people materially worse off for a long time if not the rest of their lives in the wake of this revolution even if over generations it manages to eventually deliver.

    I’m all for substantial reform and leftist/liberal politics but it’s difficult for me to ignore the great peril and huge gamble of revolution. Some times a society successfully manages to make things so bad that there’s so little to lose that it can seem a realistic option but I think everybody considering that option should weigh it very carefully. It’s very possible to sacrifice everything including your own life and thousands of others’ only for the whole thing to get derailed by opportunists and to make a bad situation so much worse.

    • PugJesus@kbin.social
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      1 year ago

      I say this only because things like communism and all their promises can only really come about through a revolution and the price in blood is jaw dropping. So much killing. It also almost certainly means people materially worse off for a long time if not the rest of their lives in the wake of this revolution even if over generations it manages to eventually deliver.

      These same arguments can be used to ward off a revolution against a dictatorship or absolutist monarchy, though. Or even against slavery.

    • iByteABit [he/him]@lemm.ee
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      1 year ago

      This is one of the three big problems of communism for me, though I believe that long term there’s no other way forward than by using violence. The few that are powerful got there by willing to play dirty and please the rest of the bourgeoisie instead of the people, and anyone that enters that scene hoping to make a change will either be forced to play that game or to be kicked out. It’s a endless circle that only force or technology can break, and I don’t bet on technology making things better for us.

      The other two are:

      1. Realistically the proletariat can’t all run a state together simply because there’s too many voices, so there always ends up being a few that rule over the many. Some have proven to believe in the cause and not use their newfound power for a new bourgeoisie to arise, but eventually they will pass away and someone has to take their place. How do you make sure that no one ends up betraying the people leading to either reviving the old system or a new bloody revolution?

      2. The late stage withering of the state is a nice concept that does make sense assuming that society completely changes after a long time of living in an equal system, but it hasn’t been seen in practice. Of course it’s unfair to rule it away since it wasn’t inefficiency that killed communism but outer interferences from capitalist countries that feared communism like the plaugue (which makes sense given that the rulers of those countries don’t want to become one with the proletariat and definitely don’t wan’t to be imprisoned, exiled or executed).

      • Cracks_InTheWalls@sh.itjust.works
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        1 year ago

        This is the first time I’ve seen this mentioned on lemmy, and it’s always been my fundamental concern with communism. We’ve never made it to the end state of communism - to date, it has always stopped at the authoritarian stage, which is supposed to be temporary and transitional.

        Arguments can be made that this is a product of foreign interference, and there’s definitely merit to that, but it’s not the whole picture. No matter what political system you have, highly concentrated power is not easy to dismantle and socialize. It doesn’t magically get easier just because you ousted the old guard and put new people in that position. So long as there is benefit to being the leader, you’re generally looking at people who want those benefits, not the responsibility of carrying the project forward.

        Technology could address some of the difficulties involved in direct democracy (which, imo, is THE fundamental thing required in communism - hell, democratic capitalist countries would benefit too), but there are many ways to manipulate a populace so that it almost wouldn’t matter.

        I’m not going to pretend I have any answers here, or that communism as a political system is inherently bad, but the draw of power is a fundamental source of corruption no matter what your stated intent is.

        • PopOfAfrica@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Communism is simply an economic framework, not a political one. I dont agree with the notion that authoritarianism is a prerequisite for communist society.

          At the very least the existence of anarcho communism points towards that.

          • Cracks_InTheWalls@sh.itjust.works
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            1 year ago

            Fair - I did wonder about inappropriately conflating things around this point - but a transitional ‘dictatorship of the proletariat’ is definitely a stage of development in communism. For what it’s worth, what I’m reading on the subject right now is this (only started reading after commenting, prior comments based on previous knowledge/discussions of communism): https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/staterev/ch05.htm

            Admittedly, perhaps not all flavours of communism, but it’s hard to argue with this showing up in history. The question becomes: is it really a dictatorship of the proletariat? Or a separate political class using that language and ideology to justify their position?

            I will be the first to admit I’m not up-to-date with my communist theory, nor aware of the dominant strains of it in contemporary good faith discourse. So I’m happy to be presented with rebuttals or different positions on this - the more you know and all that.

            • PopOfAfrica@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              You seem well intended, no worries.

              Just for an example, Im a libertarian communist. I believe in a Democratic communism where a direct democracy makes larger political decisions.

              Somewhere between anarcho communist and socialist. My view on governments, communist or otherwise, is that they should be only big enough to help the people. It should serve effectively no other purpose but to run social programs and to stop greedy people.

            • PugJesus@kbin.social
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              1 year ago

              The dictatorship of the proletariat originally, in Marx’s work, did not mean a literal dictatorship, but a democratic government run for the workers with the effective exclusion of other potential power centers. He refers to capitalist democracy in turn as a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, for reference.

              Marxist-Leninists are the big offenders here, because two of the major ‘innovations’ to Marxism introduced by Marxist-Leninists (at least, two which are relevant here) are that of the revolutionary vanguard (that you need to give power to a small number of people who are really well-read on theory, and THAT’S what will save the revolution), and the idea that you can ‘skip’ over capitalist democracy and go straight to socialism if you just try really hard and shoot a lot of people who think wrong.

              Marx was long-dead by the time Marxism-Leninism came about.

        • iByteABit [he/him]@lemm.ee
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          1 year ago

          I fully agree, it’s refreshing to find someone open minded that can have an actual discussion over politics without going all agressive and insane

        • Gorilladrums@sh.itjust.works
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          1 year ago

          Communism IS fundamentally bad. Why? Because it’s inherently authoritarian, oppressive, and violent. The utopia is just that, a fantasy. We’ll never achieve an a perfect society. Therefore, this ideology will always be permanently stuck in it’s authoritarian, oppressive, and violent stage. The authoritarians in power will never voluntarily give up their power, they’ll never stop oppressing and killing people, and they will never agree that the utopia arrived. The communist utopia will always be just around the corner.

      • SCB@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        The few that are powerful got there by willing to play dirty and please the rest of the bourgeoisie instead of the people, and anyone that enters that scene hoping to make a change will either be forced to play that game or to be kicked out

        This is conspiracy-theorist nonsense.

        Real “drain the swamp” energy

    • Jimbo@yiffit.net
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      1 year ago

      You say this as if capitalism isn’t responsible for hundreds of thousands, if not millions or more of deaths

      • SCB@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        All you need to do here is show that non-capitalist systems won’t consume fossil fuels, which I find to be extremely unlikely.

        • PopOfAfrica@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Communism doesn’t incentive excess production or planned obsolescence. Historically they also had good public transportation.

          Im saying there is a lot of energy waste in capitalism that leads to tons of emisions

          Its no coincidence that the the US is one of the highest emitters of carbon.

          • SCB@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            Energy waste like heating homes, powering hospitals, and getting food from point A to point B?

            Considering the Holodomor maybe that last point I can concede

            • PopOfAfrica@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              What exactly are you arguing?

              Are you suggesting communist societies don’t have heat, hospitals and transport?

                • PopOfAfrica@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  That list in particular , yes they can be covered by renewables

                  Im am of the belief that we cant maintain our current lavish lives on renewables alone though.

                  Personally I think scaling back mixed with renewables is the answer. Less priority for the meat industry (of which I am a partaker), more work from home, more low emmision public transport.

                  There is no one silver bullet in the fight against the climate change. It will take an amalgamation of methods.

                  • irmoz@reddthat.com
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                    1 year ago

                    I agree with all of these things, but I find it doubtful that the industry, if left to the whims of its industry leaders, will ever take the plunge of their own accord, because they’re making too much money producing fossil fuels. And that income includes massive subsidies, eclipsing any efforts towards renewables, meaning the state is also in collusion.

                • PopOfAfrica@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  I think you clearly are misinterpreting my argument.

                  Capitalism produces MORE emissions. That’s all im saying. I never said Communism produces zero emmisions.

              • SCB@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                Lmao I can’t believe you actually linked some shit-ass YouTube video saying the Holodomor was fine, actually.

                • irmoz@reddthat.com
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                  1 year ago

                  some shit-ass YouTube video

                  A thoroughly researched essay on the subject

                  saying the Holodomor was fine, actually.

                  saying the Soviet famine was a fucking travesty, and Stalin should be shot, but there is no indication it was a deliberate policy

                  At least watch the first 10 seconds, ya fucking goof

        • irmoz@reddthat.com
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          1 year ago

          Why? Production would be drastically lower, because there’s no need to flood the market. Democracy would dictate what gets produced, so an educated population would object to polluting industries, and thus not support them, leading to their demise.

          • SCB@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            Because people love to not die, and suddenly ending our use of fossil fuels would kill a fuckload of people.

            Dude think for half a minute

            • PopOfAfrica@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              First off, I disagree with that assessment. But secondly, are you implying climate change won’t kill people?

              • SCB@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                No I’m responding to the idea that communists won’t use fossil fuels, which they did, and would.

                How do you think Venezuela affords their socialism?

                This is just the dumbest take possible.

                • PopOfAfrica@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  Where did I say communists don’t use fossil fuels? I do maintain they use objectively less though. There just less need less production all around.

                  Hell, your knowledge about. Venezuela is even incorrect. Its categorically a failed socialist state, not a communist one.

                  • SCB@lemmy.world
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                    1 year ago

                    Neither of those things are capitalist, so my statement holds.

                    If people need to consume fossil fuels, socialists or communists will produce fossil fuels. This isnt rocket science.

                • irmoz@reddthat.com
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                  1 year ago

                  No one said communism “doesn’t use fossil fuels”, so I’m not sure why you’re trying to disprove that

                  • SCB@lemmy.world
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                    1 year ago

                    The argument is that climate change is a result of capitalism which is demonstrably false.

            • irmoz@reddthat.com
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              1 year ago

              It doesn’t need to end fucking immediately, because of that very reason.

              Think for just a second, friendo.

              • SCB@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                Weird that you’d want economic conditions that don’t contribute to new tech rather than economic conditions that do contribute to new tech, then.

                Also I’m not your friend.

                • irmoz@reddthat.com
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                  1 year ago

                  Source? Do people just not go to school or have ambitions to improve the world, simply because their basic needs are met? You think no one dreams of tech in communism? That a social order based on cooperation and mutual aid would not engender exactly that?

                  • SCB@lemmy.world
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                    1 year ago

                    A source on socialism having less incentive to fund new technologies and more barriers in the way of such progress?

                    It’s called “economic incentives” and you are more than capable of giving it a Google.

    • irmoz@reddthat.com
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      1 year ago

      The only people who will actually “suffer” or have anything to lose from such a revolution are the owning class

      These sob stories you hear from people who “fled communist oppression” are just people who lost untold privilege. We call them “communists stole my slaves” stories

      • IdealShrew@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        this is an unhinged reply if you actually think that. ask people from Poland or some post soviet countries what they thought about living under totalitarian communism.

        • SCB@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          People loved their totalitarian boot-on-face experience and anyone saying otherwise just believes propaganda, comrade.

          That’s why all those people were weeping instead of celebrating when the Berlin wall was torn down

        • irmoz@reddthat.com
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          1 year ago

          I’d ask them, but they’d have no frame of reference. They never lived under communism. They definitely lived under socialism, though.

          • HikingVet@lemmy.sdf.org
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            1 year ago

            Pretty sure there are people who lived under communism still alive in that country.

            Hell, probably about 50% at this point (depending on birth and death rates).

            So there are literally millions of people who have the experience to ask.

            • irmoz@reddthat.com
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              1 year ago

              Not a single one.

              What do you think communism is?

              Look up its definition. Compare that to the political system found in the USSR. See they are not the same.

              Lenin started a path towards it, called socialism, but by the time Stalin was in power, revisionism was in full effect oriented toward market reforms.

              • HikingVet@lemmy.sdf.org
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                1 year ago

                Do you ever actually get outside your bubble and realise you been fed a bunch of horseshit or do you just plug your ears going nanananana naaaa I can’t hear you?

                Because you are on some wierd tankie shit.

                • SeducingCamel@lemm.ee
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                  1 year ago

                  The projection lmao, have you maybe thought about the fact that you’ve been fed BS all your life and here you are now spewing it without actually knowing what you’re talking about

                • irmoz@reddthat.com
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                  1 year ago

                  Yes, in fact, that is how i learned this “tankie shit”. So ironic. I had to get out of my bubble to stop believing in liberalism.

                  Do you think society shelters and fosters socialist beliefs? No. It forces liberalism down our throats from the day we’re born.

      • Jimmycrackcrack@lemmy.ml
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        1 year ago

        It would take only the most cursory examination of documented revolutions, communist ones as much as any other to immediately see that that’s not the case. Millions get swept up in it. People starve, civil and international wars are fought and combatants die, civilians become collateral damage, power struggles emerge within the ranks of the revolutionaries and loyal partisans are swept aside so ambitious people can ascend. Revolutionary zeal leads to countless cases of misidentification of suspected ‘reactionaries’, economic turmoil creates desperation leading to violence and crime and then further violence in the attempts to restore order. In the chaos and lawlessness of the initial stages of a revolution people will take the opportunity to settle old scores. Individuals who previously held no power now take up new roles in the new society and wield even tiny petty amounts of power yet still more than they could have dreamed of before and turn out not to be responsible with it and others still manage to claim masses of it.

        And this is only the people who you would hopefully agree didn’t ‘deserve’ it, but for me on a personal level, though it does make me rather useless I suppose, I’m not in to killing, so even those who arguably did ‘deserve’ it, the ‘ruling’ classes, I may be glad to see them stripped of the privilege and influence but I don’t want to see them or anyone strung up. And in the period of re-defining and re-shaping society after the revolution the new order will seek to identify just who counts as ‘ruling class’, this has, in the past included people who owned a shop, people with ‘bourgeois’ jobs in the former government, teachers accused by students of being ‘reactionaries’.

        It might just be that communism really can, if not de-railed create a utopia on Earth and it might just be that all that happens above really is actually what just needs to happen for us to get there, but I’m not sure I could stomach it.

        • irmoz@reddthat.com
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          1 year ago

          I don’t agree with such extremes, such as the executions of landlords etc.

          This, I have to admit, is my one sticking point in actually calling myself a communist. This one question has tortured me for a long time:

          What do you actually DO about the reactionaries and counter revolutionaries?

          The USSR sent them to gulags. That seems harsh, but it’s something. Mao’s China killed them, and I’m sure similar things happened in Cuba.

          There has to be an option that doesn’t scare people or cause horror in general, but I don’t think I personally have a perfect answer. I could say, “the average person won’t be mistaken for a bourgeois,” but I don’t know how convincing that will be. The revolution would have to be truly perfect for that to happen.

          What I can say, though, is that Marxists of the present day recognise and condemn these actions, and the Marxist tradition teaches us to constantly reevaluate our methods, in the scientific discipline of observation, experiment, reflection and so on. It’s a cold way to put it, but the mistakes of the past have been carefully studied to ensure they can’t happen again.

          That doesn’t mean new mistakes can’t happen. We are only human, and even democratic will can run foul. But we can use our knowledge of material conditions to measure our approach. Only ever what the people want - and what we want is justice for all.

    • DessertStorms@kbin.social
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      1 year ago

      You could have saved yourself some typing and just written “I’m selfish and wilfully ignorant”

      First - educate yourself on communism, you clearly know nothing about it, but the fact that you’re against it because “bloodshed” yet are openly in support of capitalism makes you nothing more than a wilfully ignorant hypocrite.

      Capitalism has and continues to kill hundreds of millions (at least, in all the time it’s existed) for profit in war, with hunger and restricted access to water, with homelessness and poverty, with preventable disease, all created and excused with the myth of artificial scarcity, with climate change, with immoral laws and entire systems designed to keep large segments of the population as slave labour, which is what they used to gain their power and wealth to be in the position to impose all of this in the first place. And all that just off the top of my head, there is so much more violence that is inflicted on us daily, they’ve just got most people, yourself included obviously, convinced that’s just life, when it really really isn’t. And those who actually benefit are never just going to give all of that up.

      You keep mentioning the potential “sacrifice” which tells me just how privileged you are, but don’t be mistaken - that privilege will only keep you safe for so long, and you not giving a shit about those of us who don’t have it and are already suffering and dying under the system you’re so eager to defend despite openly admitting to not understanding it (and displaying no understating of the alternative either), doesn’t change the fact that said system is destroying the planet and everything on it, and no amount of bootlicking will save you from that.