In a recent call on the national question someone asked about how some people say the United States is not a legitimate nation because of settler colonialism and he said he knew it was obviously wrong but was wondering what their mistake is. Someone claimed that ā€œlandbackā€ people never have a clear policy proposal. And I was shocked and hoping it could be rectified. Next was said in response that itā€™s true as Stalin said that the US became a nation when it left Britain because it was a specific group of settlers, but it expanded through brutal means and that should be rectified. After a while into the call eventually the issue was returned to. The fact that there are still many indigenous tribes within the US and therefore should be given their original land and sovereignty was said. In response people said that it would make them to isolated from the union and they have the option to have that sovereignty from their reservations, but obviously choose not to, which is absurd because these states should also get lots of aid and solidarity from other socialist areas (as this would be after the revolution and it would be different to now). I thought it was bad enough but after it was said that primarily settler colonial nations need their histories rectified they said that they donā€™t even oppose the existence of Israel anymore. Then the gensec said that people are ignoring ā€œdialecticsā€ that things change. People move in and out of territory- (though usually not by genocide)- and therefore the US is no different and we should not try to change that. ā€œAll the slaves are dead.ā€-Though people are still affected by that history, native Americans are still under special oppression by the state, and in the case of Palestine people are still alive that can remember having their land stolen and have physical evidence that it belonged to them- according to another ā€œsome Marxists read Marx and Lenin and come to the opposite conclusionsā€ suggesting those bad Marxists are the ā€œland-backā€ people.

Whoever warned me that they were PatSocs are right. What should I do? Is there hope of convincing them? Should I leave ASAP? Should I wait? Itā€™s been mentioned here that we should follow the leadership of BIPOC people, does anyone know the modern equivalent of the White Panthers or AIM I should join?

Edit: I forget to mention the made the point that refugees are coming here now and if we do landback there would be refugees from here-like, sure peopleā€™d have to move but weā€™ve got space, and arenā€™t our birth rates declining anyway? Itā€™s not like thereā€™ll be an anti-white trail of tears. With socialist central planning we can allocate resources to support evicted settlers. Also, thereā€™s a whole lotta land thatā€™s privately owned that could easily be expropriated for indigenous people along with national parks which theyā€™d manage far better. I think they also suggested that we need to integrate Native Americans as much as possible because their sovereignty wonā€™t help. Finally, apparently they wouldā€™ve supported the new Afrikan struggle in the 30ā€™s, but since I guess they donā€™t think you can fight fascism and racism and colonialism at the same time.

    • QueerCommie@lemmygrad.mlOP
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      1 year ago

      I figured that out. Theyā€™re basically larpers who have a somewhat pro-landback pamphlet, but in person hate anyone who would say anything pro-landback. They think theyā€™re the perfect Leninist vanguard, but they have no plan to do anything except a couple protests. They always talk about their specific definition of fascism and why the US is not that, when itā€™s worse for a lot of people, just not them yet. I left after five months (the specific spark for leaving was a reactionary trot in their ā€œmassā€ org, who I knew would throw any principled people off, and shined light on the poor strategy of PCUSA in general).

    • Tankeke@lemmygrad.ml
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      1 year ago

      Thanks for letting me know. I canā€™t stand ANY PatSocs, look at PCF, they are getting rubbish because PatSocs crap.

  • Leninismydad@lemmygrad.ml
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    1 year ago

    Iā€™m not USian but from my understanding of US leftist parties, I donā€™t understand why anyone would join these parties when PSL exists, they seem to be the only decent party there. Everyone else either seems like Larpers or ops, itā€™s probably being a bit reductionist, but

    • Sleepless One@lemmygrad.ml
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      1 year ago

      Iā€™m somewhat wary of PSL because the infamous abuse scandal happened in the branch of the city I live near. From what Iā€™ve read of it, while I canā€™t say for certain whether the abuse charge is accurate, the way the leadership handled the incident was pretty bad regardless of the veracity of the accusation.

      This is the account of the accuser of the misconduct.

      WARNING: the following 2 links are google docs links.

      Here is a document of some membersā€™s criticisms of how the org handled the Philly situation.

      Here is an addendum to the previous document, which includes the PSLā€™s official response to the previous document as well.

      @Elara@lemmygrad.ml youā€™re pretty good with this kind of stuff. Do you know a way to get the content of a google doc without needing to sign into Google?

    • QueerCommie@lemmygrad.mlOP
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      1 year ago

      I need to see if theyā€™re active in my area. All Iā€™ve heard against them is flea war accusing them of being opps, though I must admit Iā€™ve yet to read the article.

        • Leninismydad@lemmygrad.ml
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          1 year ago

          If what they say is accurate, there is essentially not a single leftist organization in the US that isnā€™t involved with the CIA doing contemporary cointelpro in some form, which if is true is pretty fucking terrible for every comrade in the US and means that basically everything any of the five organizations have touched is tainted by the CIA which is a metric fuck done of leftist organizing that is rotten. For such a dramatic claim, the evidence needs to be air tight and the presentation needs to be a fuck ton better than it is, I read through everything and I came out more confused than knowledgeable. The organization is atrocious and it looks like a red string conspiracy board. Iā€™m not saying it isnā€™t true, but someone who knows how to present and put together information needs to work with them.

      • Black Yeonmi Parš•@lemmygrad.ml
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        1 year ago

        Oh no. Not Black Alliance for Peace. If theyā€™re implicated in this whole web too, I just lost the single last news outlet I had faith in bc Black Agenda Report is probs the one non-ADOS-ish, non-Democrat Black news outlet Iā€™ve foundā€¦

          • Black Yeonmi Parš•@lemmygrad.ml
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            1 year ago

            ā€œAmerican Descendants of Slavesā€; it sounds benign until you find out itā€™s some Tariq Nasheed griftery, tailor-made to divide the Black community farther than we already are by colorism debates and the ever-ongoing twitter warring between these scrub-assed Black manosphere types and the marginal fringe ā€˜divestorā€™ movement. Wrecker shit from someone who ainā€™t even left, p much.

            Their whole angle is ā€œreparations, but only for people who can verifiably track their lineage back through slaveryā€ while totally ignoring that the vast majority of us in that position in the first place have our genealogical data along those lines straight up disappear by 1890.

            • frippa@lemmy.ml
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              1 year ago

              I canā€™t even trace my ancestry that far and my family never was enslaved, sounds like a dumb thing

              • Black Yeonmi Parš•@lemmygrad.ml
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                1 year ago

                Oh, immensely. Thing is, you try to tell Tariq that, and heā€™ll send his lil manosphere twitter eggs after you, and GOD HELP YOU if youā€™re lighter-skinned than like. Donald Glover. Heā€™s a clown, soā€™s his clique, and that ā€œmovementā€ ainā€™t helping nobody but the people perpetuating the grift.

  • Qoryneform@lemmygrad.ml
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    1 year ago

    thereā€™s many Revolutionary Study Group organizations around america, you should check those out :)

    • QueerCommie@lemmygrad.mlOP
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      1 year ago

      I looked those words up and only found an MLM org calling China imperialist with a 90ā€™s looking website. Any specific groups? Do they actually do work, or are they just like mini non-patsoc PCUSAs?

  • Camarada Forte@lemmygrad.ml
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    1 year ago

    Do you see any evidence they have changed or corrected their views before? Considering you are queer, have you felt youā€™ve been treated unfairly?

    If you donā€™t have sufficient experience with the party, Iā€™d say to persist criticizing them internally and fighting for a more correct political line until they either expell you or you realize thereā€™s no use in correcting them. Only practice can tell

    • QueerCommie@lemmygrad.mlOP
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      1 year ago

      Theyā€™re the least queerphobic PatSocs Iā€™ve seen. However I feel this specific line is difficult to fight beyond dming everyone a revleft podcast or keeping repeating points that will get shut down. Itā€™s hard to convince settlers that other groupsā€™ need to be prioritized at the risk of their own, but perhaps itā€™s better not to go down without a fight.

  • Beat_da_Rich@lemmygrad.ml
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    1 year ago

    PCUSA is an irrelevant party that hasnā€™t gotten anything done in their multiple years of being a bookclub. They just rail against other orgs for being ā€œsectarian,ā€ put down multiple grievances by poc members as liberal/ultra while they fail to accomplish any real organizing of their own.