I bought a Stoeger A30 .177 495fps from Canadian Tire because it seemed decent for the price and had a 3-9x40 scope. I’ve run about 150 pellets through it now, and I’m just confused by the spread.
I know that everybody says there’s a break in period during which it will be inconsistent, but I get the feeling that what I am seeing is worse than expected. Further, consistency doesn’t seem to be improving. The image shows four groupings:
- target 23, 10, 1 (in order of firing, first two last night and 1 this morning): Stoeger
- target 30: Marksman
These are ~1.5" squares, and I’m aiming for the center of each target. I am not a great shooter, I wouldn’t even say good - I just want to get rid of a rat in my backyard, and I haven’t shot in years. But I used my 20yo Marksman 1745 with a floppy barrel and a 4x20 scope I can barely see through, and I can get more accurate and better groupings.
These shots were taken at 11 yards. I’m using a camera tripod with a custom block on top to support the barrel of the Stoeger and the stock of the Marksman (as laying the barrel on it results in deflecting the barrel up about 8 MOA lol), and using a loose hold at the butt of the rifle. I’m a fidgety fucker that can’t stay still, but I’d say that I’m still enough at release with the Stoeger, considering the trigger is far smoother and lighter than the Marksman and I’m holding it farther from the supporting pivot point (both farther down the rifle and a longer rifle overall).
Another thing to note is that the scope that came with the Stoeger could not be mounted to it without shimming the rear mount up, as I immediately ran out of elevation adjustment. I used a couple layers of electrical tape, didn’t over tighten it, and have retightened it twice since as it settles in. It’s possible, but I don’t think that the scope is moving shot to shot.
It’s weird. I’ll have two of three shots that are somewhat consistent (down and to the right, for example), and then the next shot will be twice as far the opposite way, and the following shot up and the right. It just seems like too great of a spread for only 11 yards, even this early in the break in period. The box was semi-open when I bought it, but the rifle itself seemed untouched, so I also have some concern that somebody returned it and the rifle itself has an issue. Although I don’t know what that would be, because it looks mint, and oh boy is the pivot joint for the barrel ever tighter than the Marksman. I can move the Marksman barrel in all directions when closed, but the Stoeger is solid. Better be, considering it’s like twice the weight for the same claimed fps
final edit (I think) because it’s going to be too cold to continue soon:
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this trigger is not a 'pull gently until it goes off" despite being a two stage smooth trigger — grip-and-pull alone decreases the spread by half for me
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the spread on the non-defective model tightened up by 200 pellets
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the variable scope may be slightly inaccurate at max zoom — backing off to half power results in lower spread (more testing needed to confirm)
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If you come to a solution, and remember me, can you ping me with any success you find? I’ve got a single-shot Gamo and my hits are all over the place like yours. I’ll dial it in, pick it up a month later, all over the place again. And this is with multiple scopes over the years!
I’ve reached out to Stoeger, and ordered a cleaning kit, but yeah I plan to keep this thread updated because I didn’t find similar threads (with resolutions!) on other forums
I’m gonna return this somehow if it doesn’t improve, because this is incredibly disappointing. There’s no way this is all my own form, not when I can do better with what should be a worse rifle.
The thing is, I can’t even get it dialed in, because one group to the next isn’t even consistent in how they’re spread (yes I get that’s how randomness works lol). my second last group with one type of pellet was okay, but then half an hour later the next group is crap
idk how to ping people on here, but I just posted an update in a top level comment
not the final update, but something
TL;DR:
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first A30 was probably defective from being dropped hard enough to break the butt pad mount post
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second A30 is more accurate
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there is a non-zero amount of user error in managing the recoil, as proven by testing one of the new rifles in a custom artillery hold mount (rifle stock clamped on a linear bearing, essentially), which led to more accurate grouping than my previous attempts
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I still think there’s some amount of parallax error going on, because the scope distance markings are so far out (15 yards mark appears most accurate focus for 11 yard actual distance), but I haven’t tested it well enough yet to verify
what’s kind of weird lately is of my last dozen rounds of shots or so, more often than not the first shot is the most accurate, only to be followed up with a shot an inch away lol. and only with the new rifles, not the old one
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That’s expected from what you’ve described, but…
The first thing to do with a new air gun is clean the barrel with something like Ballistol to get rid of the preservative oils and grease that the manufacturers spread on the inside to keep the barrel from rusting in the box.
After that, there’s a “leading in” period where you’re shooting hundreds of pellets through the barrel before things reach equilibrium, and you find out realistically how accurate the gun actually is.
There’s also the matter of finding out which pellets the gun actually “likes” .
Most air guns are “pellet picky” and work with some pellets better than others.
Good pellets like JSB Diabolos, and JTS reduce spread. Bad pellets like Daisy Pointeds can get really wild.
I’ve been keeping a spreadsheet of the spreads for each pellet model for my Umarex Komplete.
Gently rounded pellets tend to be more accurate than flat heads and pointeds, because of aerodynamics.
The gun’s power will also dictate which weight of pellet that it likes.
You just have to try a range of pellet weights to find that range.
I’ll seconding the comment on pellet choice. The single most effective thing I’ve found with pellet guns (and centerfire rifles for that matter) you can do to calm one down if its misbehaving is to change what you feed it.in .177 I’ve have good success with all my springers and pcps with rws hobby s. Theyre light, but will work for rats and squirrels depending on the rifle. (https://sh.itjust.works/pictrs/image/17a0e4b4-df69-4567-9576-e92f3cd0da21.jpeg)
definitely noticing a difference between rifles for pellet choice. weirdly, the A30 seems to shoot better with the pellets that are noticeably less consistent in quality. might be that the passable quality ones shoot better through it, then I pick one that’s out of round.
the last two rounds, at target 20 and then at target 5. 20 is tighter but all over, 5 is fewer shots but oddly in two distinct groups, with a large grouping down to the right
hmm, okay. the 4" spread just seemed way too large for nearly only 10 yards, and carrying out to 200 shots. discussion online indicated generally fewer shots and that spread at double the distance
I just did another 40 or so shots using a stronger hold instead of artillery, and the groupings were much more consistent. weirdly, I seemed to have one group down to the right and another up to the left, and nothing really I’m between or outside of those angles. still a 4" spread over the two groupings (same target, though…), but only 1.5-2 inches of spread on each group.
I’m having some trouble figuring out if this model A30 is a spring or gas piston, but I imagine you want the artillery hold for both? it’s just that I noticed an immediate improvement in consistency once I held the body securely with my front hand, which is definitely not the case with the little 1745. it sounds like a spring action to me, I have no experience with them but it seems like a gas piston wouldn’t make the clear spring noise.
I’m using an unopened old can of Crosman Premier pointed, to break it in, and once that’s out I’ll start shooting a new tin of Crosman Premier hollow points
I have not cleaned the barrel, just followed the manufacturer’s instructions that came with it, which were admittedly basically nothing. I’ve probably got around 350 rounds through it now, judging by how much is left of the tin.
I was wondering when/if I would get a reply, seems like it’s just you around here! figured I should add some content. thank you!
at what point do you think I can pretty much eliminate break-in as a variable? 500 shots? 1000? 2000?
Reviewing my own notes, I seem to have misremembered about the CPPs: They were good at a 0.75 inch spread at 25-30 yards.
My apologies to Crosman.
I haven’t been impressed with the CPPs and CPHPs, both bought within the last few months, or anything that’s available in my local brick and mortar stores.
They’re certainly not the worst pellets out there, but a 4 inch spread at 10 yards is indeed nuts, which seems to indicate other problems.
I would deffo try cleaning the barrel. It might save you a lot of wasted pellets/money.
Then try the JSBs and JTSs. They opened my eyes as to how much difference good pellets make, barring my own deficiencies in skill.
my latest round of shooting got me a 2in, 3in, 1in, and then back to 3in spread, all minimum 10 shots per target. only changes were some minor scope knob adjustments.
it was looking good on the third target, with four or five pellets in the same hole, then I came back a short while later and got another crappy result.
these four batches were with the hollow points, which are a tighter fit on the barrel, and some don’t actually go down into the barrel opening without force so I didn’t use them.
I guess I’ll head in to grab some more pellets and a cleaning kit. I can at least say that after 500 shots, the grouping is definitely tighter than at first. but still very inconsistent
With cleaning an airgun it’s recommended to only use the cloth patches lightly soaked in Ballistol, not the brass cleaning brushes. This is in order to keep the rifling factory sharp.
It’s recommended to use a rotating cleaning rod on bearings, just allowing it to spin naturally as you’re pulling the patches through, to allow the patches to follow the rifling grooves.
When cleaning, only pull the patches from the breech to the muzzle.
Having started 3 months ago, I’m pretty new to airguns myself, so I’m just parroting barrel cleaning orthodoxy to you.
Another idea is to read the reviews on Pyramyd to see what others have tried and what works or doesn’t work: https://www.pyramydair.com/product/stoeger-arms-a30-s2-air-rifle-combo?m=3643
One user mentions “hold sensitivity” although they didn’t elaborate on exactly what that meant.
Lots of complaints about the heavy 4lb trigger pull, which can also lead to inaccuracy.
One guy mentions replacing the trigger and getting the pull down to 1lb and change.
Some of the pellet comments mention JSB 18.13 gr pellets, which are .22 caliber, so they must have been playing with the .22 version of the A30, not the .177
A couple of more thoughts:
- It could be the scope: Springers are notorious for wrecking scopes due to the back and forth kickback, and the in-box scopes are notoriously cheaply made. Google for “springer rated scopes” There are plenty of models that aren’t super-expensive, but allegedly durable.
- You mentioned that you’re supporting the front with a tripod. Not all tripods and gun mounts are equal. Andy’s Airguns just put out a video on that Compare the spreads on a lightweight tripod with a simple rubber V mount to an expensive heavy Epic tripod with a picatinny mount. He normally demonstrates shooting accuracy from a stand on a bench. It’s widely believed that firing airguns from a bench resting on a sandbag or a lead sled is the best way to judge accuracy.
- The A30 is a clone of the Chinese B18 .177 platform which is used in multiple models from Crosman, Benjamin, et al, and parts are mostly interchangeable. The B19 platform is the .22 version, and also shares many parts.
my tripod mounted support is basically just a flat pad with a 4mm thick piece of yoga mat on it for padding, for vertical support and to prevent lateral sliding while aiming. I don’t believe it would restrict recoil much, as it is basically an artillery hold
I did remount the scope and fix the shimming to be more even, which has maybe made a tiny difference? going to add an image to that comment chain with myself. the scope is a stroeger one that is springer rated, but yeah I don’t know the reviews on it.
really, I need to get the barrel cleaned, I think. I had one shot that looked (from the mark it left) like the pellet went sideways through the paper, but it might just be the shot up cardboard behind the paper caused it to tear oddly. problem is that it seems like no store near me sells .177 cleaning kits, just real gun stuff
this is the stock rest I made:
the stock is not trapped horizontally, the walls have clearance
Ah yes, I think the only .177 cleaning rods are the cheap one from Gamo, and the $30 unwieldy single piece rod by Dewey.
Alternatively, I’ve heard good things about the patchworm Don’t forget to select “rifle length” if you go this route.
Some people just use a length of fishing line with a small loop tied at the end.
To get a flexible cleaning line past the baffles in the moderator, use a drinking straw.
Although I really do like having a metal rod around for when I inevitably jam pellets inside the breech by double loading them.
A third thing that comes to mind to do with break barrel rifles and it only just came to mind because I don’t own one is that breaking barrel rifles have very un usual kickback. They’re supposed to be held in a very specific manner. Google for break barrel artillery hold.
yeah that made a big difference in shooting the 1745 last week, and that’s how I was holding the A30 as well until the last two rounds. I’m just not sure if the artillery hold applies to this type of break barrel what with the presumably lower moving mass in the spring
okay, so, the butt of the A30 was damaged (thread post for the lower butt pad mount screw was snapped), so I’m suspecting that this one has been dropped rather violently and somehow this is affecting consistency despite the body seeming rock solid
so I’m gonna return that one, and I went and bought another one. after a dozen shots to get the scope somewhat aligned, I shot these four low count groupings in pellets ~20-40 through this new A30, and it seems promising, although still nowhere near the expected final accuracy of a less than one inch group at 10 yards with my skill level. guess I’ll see how it shoots after a hundred more pellets
yep, definitely was a defect with the first one. shots 40-100 in the attached image at 11 yards
2 groupings of 10 shots each using 17, 15, and 13 yard parallax settings (parallax is clearly incorrect below the 13 yard setting at this distance), walking left to right in batches of 5 shots (i.e. 5 shots with 17y setting on target 1, then 15y target 3, then 13y target 5, then back through targets 5 - 3 - 1 for shots 6-10 with the matching parallax settings, and then repeat on the next row of targets)
this is much tighter than the first A30. what’s odd to me is I’ll sometimes get 3 shots in a 1/4" spread and then the next shot is the farthest outlier in the grouping, seems not quite entirely random
Better, but still not great…
JSB, JTS, Gamo, and H&N all sell sampler packs, which are a fun and convenient way to try a whole range of pellet weights and shapes to find out what your gun likes.
And sometimes you just get random fliers.
I blame how they put soft lead objects with paper thin skirts loose in a tin that gets shaken around, and are then expected to fly straight…
If you’ve ever seen how QYS pellets for high level competition come individually inserted into their own holes in foam inside a hard box…
Behold — the final update!
Okay, so, don’t really remember what I wrote in the last few updates.
But in the past few days what I’ve done is take apart both the X20 & A30 and give them a clean and lube on the powerplant internals and pivot, and just a tad bit of grease on the safety pin notches because that was annoyingly catchy. I did also buy a cheap bore snake and use that on the A30 and lube the barrel with some silicone treadmill lube on the end of the bore snake.
The X20 had a broken top hat. Stoeger service/warranty support refuses to just send me a replacement top hat. They refuse to do anything without me shipping it to them, even though the part is clearly broken and I offered to have them null my warranty if they just send the part. I didn’t want to put the thing back together just to then pay to ship the entire thing to them to wait for a few weeks and then get it back plus the one part, so instead I printed a drop-in replacement top hat out of PETG-CF, put it back together with some moly paste (turns out you can get this for a decent price at the local fastener store, however the only data sheets I can find for it don’t say the MoS2 content although product pages from several suppliers do say 60-80% — this is Lloyd’s 62625 anti seize compound) following TinBumTuning’s general practices.
And, well, it’s fine now? Shot cycle twang is basically all eliminated, previously it was verrry twangy. Feels like it kicks less, too. And where previously it would take me dozens of pellets to get to a point where I thought it was sighted in, only to then have zero shift on me or just get a bunch of inconsistency, I managed to get both the fixed sights and scope sighted in only 21 pellets.
I then took two more five shot groups, which only had one shot that was maybe a random flyer. Every other pellet was either on rails to the crosshairs, or where I called it if I was moving too much while taking the shot.
It actually feels nice to shoot the X20 now.
Oh, and the X20 is now shooting Gamo Tomahawk Pointed pellets (all shots since rebuild some using those) straight, whereas previously it did not like any pointed pellets. And I haven’t even cleaned the X20 barrel yet.
The A30 is also shooting the Tomahawks straight now whereas previously it would only shoot consistently with flat heads, but I need to do a bit more testing to see how much of that is just reduced parallax error with the adjustable scope and how much is actually the rifle consistency.
I will note that the grease from the factory is terrible for actually using the rifle. On the A30, a bunch of it was dried up, but there was also excessive amounts in some areas. And on the X20, there was barely anything left, and I have lots of wear marks on the side of the piston. These are definitely not high quality products, but if you rebuild them after they’ve been sitting on the shelf for who knows how long in Crappy Tire, it seems like they are okay. Also the top hat is very undersized within the piston and spring, I’m going to print another one with a bit of preload to thicken the load bearing section, and decrease those clearances on both the piston and spring.
two five shot groups for each rifle, X20 on the left and A30 on the right. same 11 yards as always.
X20 shots are on rails, even makes me feel like a decent shooter. A30 has twang still, and I think some parallax issues with the adjustable scope and the user looking through it. It’s been tough to find the proper focal setting, but I’m starting to figure out the setback I need to use to avoid parallax issues (back up to juuust where scope shadow starts to show on the edges).
Still, THIS is the performance I expected out of a new purchase. Much better than before. I don’t think I included it in updates, but I did end up swapping scopes around to eliminate variables, and determined that yes the adjustable results in less consistent shots, but it didn’t account for all of it.
Now to sort out the crappy scope mount on the X20 (it puts the scope noticeably to the right of the center line, so zeroing over different distances will have significant lateral change), and probably print a new top hat for the A30 to guide that spring better, lighten the piston, and reduce the twang of metal on metal. Then to work on the triggers with the bushing mod, but that’s secondary, I’m already very pleased with the massive improvement on the X20.
another update after being away for a bit:
A30 is shooting okay now, possibly even well, with flat head pellets. It looooves flat head pellets. It is also very, very hold sensitive for the power (in my inexperienced opinion).
however, my X20 broke today — the spring guide top hat thingy on the piston side just sheared in half where the two diameters meet. I think this is indicative of the quality of the products.
because I’m stuck on this, I went and purchased an HW30… which I guess I should have just done in the first place, as I’ve now spent an equal amount on shittier rifles. once it arrives, I will probably take the A30 apart too and give it a full clean up, as judging from the internals on the X20, it needs it
update from a few days later:
I’ve shot the A30 a few more times, and it seems to be getting better. Still weird, I’ll have three good shots, then a few random, then a few good. But trending better.
However, still not as consistent as my 1745. I can fairly easily hit a quarter cluster at 11 yards with that and a less magnified scope - I tried to put the same scope on it to get a direct comparison, but it kept loosening because the clamps are made for a wider rail. I plan to file the scope mount down so it will fit this rifle as well.
And because I decided I have too much disposable income, I also bought an X20 because nothing says sane like buying pretty much the exact same model (except coil spring instead of gas ram) from the same manufacturer that was already disappointing me. I figured it was worth it to get the scope (which is what is now mounted on my old rifle). It wasn’t worth it, but that was my decision anyways, lol
I have a bit more testing to do with the A30, but I just shot a half dozen pellets with the X20 in a custom artillery hold mount, and… damn. Easily shot a quarter sized cluster. So I think that is strong evidence that there was a fair bit of user error in this inaccuracy as well as the original A30 defect. What seems strange to me is that the recoil is so different between these models, despite being (allegedly) the same power. And I’ve even shimmed the spring on the 1745 with a washer just for shits. There’s something about the heavier Stroeger models that just causes me to be less consistent in position when pulling the trigger, I guess, even though the trigger pull is smooth instead of aim and yank. *shot another dozen with this mount and made a nickel sized grouping quite easily. I’m actually surprised that this mount worked this well. I’ll need to revise the design to work with different stock profiles to make item easier to change rifles, instead of a custom block for each stock.
I still plan to do a more thorough test, but that’s the update for now.
one side note, the post-firing reverb of the spring systems in the Stroegers is super annoying. it’s like hitting a tuning fork.
final update probably: changed trigger pull method to grip-and-pull instead of squeeze and spread decreased considerably, as well as not using the scope all the way zoomed in (unconfirmed how much of an effect that had). getting less than an inch spread at 12 yards now, most of which is easily attributed to my own bad aim. 3/5 pellets are going where I call, the other 2 seem more variable (down instead of right, for example). could still just be me.
but yeah, something to do with squeezing the trigger instead of yanking results in my accuracy going to shit. which I find weird given it’s a two stage trigger and that’s how you’re supposed to use it? I don’t know what’s wrong with my form using that method, but it does appear that the rifle is accurate now
Oh yeah, trigger technique and related hand positioning can definitely affect accuracy.
It’s an important part of basic rifle technique and accuracy:
Trigger Hand Placement https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pai163DxnNY Trigger Control https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxduxFJZ70g
I like the series that these come from, and have them saved to a playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0AUw8fmTPYaSWUsYu8eM5EACv28LQ8Jt
I have definitive proof that these models are poor quality!
I shot about 25 pellets in a row going exactly where they were called and in quarter sized groupings
I went to take another shot, and the barrel felt hard to close, lots of friction in it halfway through closing. three shots in a row with that same feeling, all random directions
On the fourth shot, barrel felt fine again. I took a few shots that were consistent, but my zero was now off. I rezeroed over five or so shots, then shot another quarter sized cluster of ten with all pellets going where they were called
Things I have learned today:
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this model likes the Stroeger flat head practice pellets - no other pellets are as consistent
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the barrel lockup is trash and/or the rifle comes poorly assembled
I will need to take it apart to see how it works and ensure that it’s actually assembled correctly. disappointing for a $300 rifle out of the box, you expect that to have been put together properly. Also, again, my 20yo 1745 with a visually floppy barrel and definitely less robust pivot is more consistent. kind of pathetic
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surprise!
shot those nice groups earlier today with overlapping holes, came back tonight and it’s all over the place again, with the scope maybe out of position as there was maybe some bias in one direction. same shooting technique as earlier.
I go to re-zero the scope (after tightening all the screws again, to be sure), and just when I think I’m getting somewhere after a few shots of shoot-adjust-shoot-adjust that are progressing as expected, I get a random couple of fliers the opposite direction.
I am once again at a loss lol
targets 3, 11, 13, 21 shot at, along with another few test shots at target 30 with the Marksman to check my form
grouping seems to be getting slightly better? still all over the place, but not as far except for the odd shot, which might just be from me swaying while firing
maybe this rifle just needs >500 shots instead of 200 of so, I’m around 250-300 now I think
slowly getting slightly better? about 450 pellets through it now, and I’ve remounted the scope again to verify it was clamped securely and clean
still not reaching a grouping like my half assed shots with the 1745 floppy barrel
I guess at this point I’m just documenting this for the next poor soul who comes along thinking “hey the internet told me it would be better by now” — maybe another 100 shots will get it within 2" spread. I also only have about 20 pointed pellets left before I change to the hollow points
around 600 shots through it when did the following:
the 1745 groupings are still noticeably better, but the A30 groupings seems to have less randomization with fewer outliers. will need to shoot a few more groups to see if that holds up
all of these groups were shot using a flat padded stock support with the file just resting on it and holding the rear with my trigger hand and off hand, allowing it to recoil however it wants as much as I could
pellets used were Crosman Premier Pointed, Crosman Premier Hollow Point, and Gamo Tomahawk Pointed Hollow Point
and now it’s results like this that throw me off — sure the second group on target 8 using the gamo tomahawk pointed hollow points looks pretty good, while the CPHP on target one just before that is terrible, but I bet if I come back in 20 or 30 minutes and shoot another grouping, I’m going to have a different result than what I just got on target 8 with the GPHP even if I use the same pellets and stance
the result on target 8 is about what I would expect for repeatability of the rifle considering my sway when aiming, as I’m far from a good shot. considering I shot target one in the same manner as target eight, and how the CPHP pellets are a very tight fit in this barrel, I’m going to conclude that this rifle just doesn’t like the CPHP pellets, and just use the Gamo pellets going forward
yep, came back 30 minutes later and get a different result
target 11 is with Crosman pellets, target 15 is with Gamo. still a bad grouping. still shooting at only 11 yards
