Host David Roberts speaks to Bruce Friedrich about how fake meat, plant based or lab grown, can reduce our land use substantially, reduce emissions substantially, and end or reduce the cruelty of animal agriculture. Notably, Friedrich contends that fake meats could end up on a learning curve to bring down the price of these meat alternatives to be cheaper than the real stuff. Much in the same way that we got better at making solar panels and flat screen TVs to the point where those items are magnitudes cheaper than they were just 10 years ago.
Friedrich, a vegan himself, chooses to lump plant based imitations together with the more controversial (but possibly more marketable) lab grown animal tissues for purposes of conversation, particularly when it comes to the economics.
Note, this is primarily an environmental tech podcast. And while the host, David Roberts, wishes he had it in him to go vegan, he has had to settle for reducitarian as he, like many, is weak. Much of the conversation is through the environmental lense, but the content is still valuable to this community.
from an industry perspective, Beyond has not done well and does not seem like a long-term sustainable business - so there is also a question of how fake meats (whether plant-based or lab grown) are going to be relevant in a market that is hostile to them, and where profitability is questionable and undermined by the subsidies that prioritize animal ag and the dairy and meat industry …
I’m a meatietarian. I love a good burger. I do, however, also love planet Earth. My first impossible burger experiment was awful. The restaurant didn’t cook the damn thing! Was like, “Well, that was a disappointment!” Several years later, A&W had a deal on their veggie burger, and it was great! (A&W Canada, so don’t complain to me if they run it in the States.) Ask me to switch to those burgers in exchange for not dying of heat death or mass fire in the next five to ten? Yeah, sold.
I’ve had amazing vegan beyond hurgers and terrible ones in restaurants. Some were perfectly grilled, others were soggy and gross. Some restaurants simply don’t know how to grill beyond burgers, and don’t care to try to learn.
I don’t think like >90% of people give a shit at all about climate … affordability, however, is very important. In the US, subsidies would have to change, we would have to stop using tax money to offset the costs of beef production and put that towards vegan alternatives. And that will never happen, the government is captive to the beef trust, etc.
The inherently smaller investment of calories to produce either “veggie meats” or cultivated meats does mean that if we get the manufacturing process down, we can produce food cheaper than animal farmers ever could, with less land used, with fewer middlemen. All things that our capitalistic overlords desire.
oh of course, and it’s such an enticement that meat products at least since the 1970s have been cut with TVP to produce a cheaper product … most people don’t realize they’ve been eating fake, plant-based meat their whole lives
but without massive shifts in the wealth and power away from the animal ag companies that have so much influence on politics and our government, I don’t see vegan meats becoming a thing
Taste and texture parody is super easy if you use some real meat in the mix, as Friedrich points out. The tricky part is getting the public to understand this to be a transparent, thoughtful initiative instead of a sneaky profit boosting method. It would be a reducitarian’s dream though.
Umm… Where are you? Half my circle of friends are near panic about the fact that half of our country is now on fire every summer…
I live in the US, which is admittedly not a climate-focused culture.
Even though Americans tend to be aware and concerned about climate issues, they don’t tend to see it as a high priority relative to other issues:
Among the leading issues confronting the nation, the environment ranks as a lesser public concern, with 37% saying they worry a great deal about environmental quality. This contrasts with much higher levels of concern shown for inflation (55%), crime and violence (53%), hunger and homelessness (52%), the economy, healthcare, and federal spending, all troubling to more than half of Americans.
from: https://news.gallup.com/poll/643850/seven-key-gallup-findings-environment-earth-day.aspx
Friedrich gets into that towards the end of the piece. He points out that the total investment into these things is just low. They’ve only gotten a few billion dollars total and thats for both R&D and production. Its hardly enough to get off the ground for a whole new product. Which is exactly where beyond and impossible are, just getting off the ground.
Cultivating meat isnt too bad because its borrowing from an existing field of science, doctors have been growing tissue for surgeries for years. There are life long experts in that. Food imitation is brand new and has to be developed from scratch.
I have confidence that both will succeed with time and funding. Expect that every doubling of production will yield a precipitous drop in price paired with a rise in quality.
If we wanted to eat meat we wouldn’t be vegan.
Okay but its not just about us. Its about shifting the whole food system. The percent of the population that lives vegan has unfortunately not increased notably in the past 20 years, but so far, the cost & taste competitive meat alternatives have not actually hit much of the market. This new technology is the first thing ever to actually have a shot of swaying your cousin who loves burgers.
That’s fair. Thanks for your point. However, we were talking about ourselves. We just don’t like it when people give us fake meat/meat alternatives.
Well I think you should speak for yourself only because there are people who are currently vegan who do miss aspects of an omnivorous diet. And there are tons more who want to join us but need this stuff in the market before they’ll be ready to make the change. You dont have to put this stuff on your plate for you to uplift it and reduce animal agriculture. Let me repeat, you dont have to want to eat it yourself for you to get really excited that these things exist for your fellow humans.
We aren’t human, as it says in our profile. We were talking for ourselves also. But sure, we hope that this leads to them stop hurting other creatures.
Aren’t ethical reasons the main drivers for veganism (reducing emissions, protecting animals etc.)? While I personally don’t miss real meat, I see substitute products that mimuc taste and texture as a postive thing as it makes the transition a lot easier.
We were talking about ourselves. We don’t really miss meat and don’t like these fake alternatives.
That’s not true. Most people grew up eating meat, and are attached to what food they grew up eating. Most vegans are not vegan out of hate for meat, but because of the suffering and killing necessary to obtain such food.
We were talking about ourselves.
