To put it in perspective: the USA has it (but dormant as it was last used in the 60s) now, instead part of an automatic register. I’ve heard that last year Germany for example proposed to impose a mandatory, volunteer-focused military service model on boosting defense against threats like Russia but would you really enlist in the German Army (Bundeswehr) or refuse instead of adhereing to politicians interests?
I’ve heard a similar thing in France with them introducing a new voluntary 10-month military service program for 18-19 year olds starting this summer 2026, but would guys there be willing to enlist or outright refuse? What ever the case is, would guys in Europe either accept voluntary military service imposed by their nation or refuse to enlist as they know that politicians are the ones who instigate wars in the first place?
For EU nations that still have the draft enforced (mandatory conscription): what happens if guys refuse it? Do they end up in jail? In that case, would you rather be imprisoned for refusing or comply? I know that some countries have alternative service (civic) rather than conventional military service, but what happens if the individual refuses either? I mean, is it a criminal offense for simply refusing conscription?
Depends on the reason. If it is to protect my loved ones and fellow citizens from losing their freedom from a violent conquering foreign power then most likely I would show up for the draft, still scared shitless though. If it was for a deranged, debauched, degenerate leader who wanted to cover up some of his crimes then no, I’d be on my way to Montreal.
I will fight to defend our rights to express ourselves, love who we want, be who we want.
The biggest and most immediate threat to these values are our governments. Implementing surveillance policies under the disguise of protecting children, while failing to bring those to justice that are actually harming them. (Epstein is the current example, the abuse in the church has been known for decades more)
Corrupt politicians are representing the ultra rich and multinationals instead of the people, funneling our tax money into their own pockets and blaming immigrants and asylum seekers when underfunded infrastructure fails. Fueling the fire that enables the political shift to the right without any regard for the consequences.
In short… the answer is NO, there is no government worth fighting for. There is no government that represents me.
I’m in the USA and am medically unfit for service.
Hunter Thompson was a famous american iconoclast and no friend to the oligarchy. He served in the Air Force and said that the draft was a good thing, because it forced all kinds of people to interact and work together.
Another Vietnam era draftee once wrote that a professional army is full of lifers who will obey any order, no matter how illegal. A drafted civilian who doesn’t care about their military career will stand up for what’s right.
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In the USA, if they try to force me, I will chew our their jugulars and be shot on the spot. I will not die alone though I promise you.
Over my rotten corpse.
You can be “lucky” and not seen as fit for the military. Or you can apply for civil protection. Should you be in the military they will try to keep you and i personally dont know of a way out. Maybe if youre wealthy and have top lawyers.
They have an Achilles heel tho; If you start mentioning extreme backpain you might be out soon. They dont want to pay for crippling you/chronic backpain.
As for the jail part. You were drafted and refuse?–> straight to jail
You are a recruit/soldier or whatever and you dont follow orders?—> straight to militaryjail
Militaryjail is full so you are lucky right? Wrong you go straight to jail.
Jail is full? Preparations are on the way for extracells.
You feel like a tool for the state? You are.
I’d only accept it if we’re fighting America. Otherwise I’d either refuse, or play along until they put a weapon in My hands and shoot the drill sergeant.
I think it really depends on the foreign policy of the country you live in. I would argue most European countries are unlikely to start offensive wars but would rather be defending against Russia for example. European countries are especially weary of offensive wars after what the US and UK pulled in order to make them join the Iraq War.
In this light, yes, I do believe it is the right choice to bolster our armies in Europe. I wanted to join myself but it seems my shoulder is too fucked for that.
But it is also a risk, since it could always happen that right wing extremists, like the afd in Germany, could come into power and then you’re stuck working for a military at the behest of fascists.
I believe we have to take that risk in order to protect European democracy. We just need to also do everything in our power to not let the fascists win elections in Europe.
In short: I’d refuse, oppose it and campaign against it.
I owe politians nothing. The rethoric about patriotism, duty and all the other arguments commonly used to carry forward pro-draft, pro-defense, pro-rearmament, etc, are hollow.
There are bad actors in this world but politians still confuse public office with unbridled authority and people allow for it like sheep.
Draft as been talked about in my country (Portugal) a few years back, by people that never served as military, from a “conservative” sector of society, using arguments gravitating about ingraining “values” about patriotism, discipline and sacrifice to the younger generations.
Translation: you are to be braiwashed, forced to obey, never question and die where and when ordered.
I risk most will defend their home and family at the risk of cost of their health and life if a bad actor arises. But that in no way leads to the logic for need of a standing army.
Peace is peace. Armed peace is a veiled threat.
Please identify your country.
I risk most will defend their home and family at the risk of cost of their health and life if a bad actor arises. But that in no way leads to the logic for need of a standing army.
You say “…if a bad actor arises.” But we already have those bad actors at our doorstep, they don’t need to arise. I don’t think we would be able to defend against Russia if we didn’t have standing armies. A quickly mounted militia is no match for a standing army, so I would say there is a pressing need and logic for a standing army.
Admittedly, Portugal is at the other end of Europe and not really threatened by Russia, but arguing against standing armies in general because it would be other nations fighting for you is a bad argument imo.
But I actually agree. Armed peace is a veiled threat. A threat against Russia (and other hostile nations) to leave the European Nations and democracy in peace.
Many people in the world will disagree with that view.
A standing army is a lumbersome beast. It requires supplies for both machines and soldiers, space, infrastructure.
A loosely organized resistance can severely hinder or even cripple such a force with assimetric warfare.
People fighting for a belief fight with resolution.
I’m hypothetically in favor of abolishing war machines as well, but this can only be achieved if workers organize internationally to overthrow their and every other state everywhere in the world simultaneously. States are literally war machines funded by taxes; everything else they do is done to the extent it helps pacify the people who’d otherwise organize themselves and rise against borders, conscription and being governed rather than governing ourselves. I also understand that fighting against states will probably be comparable to a war in terms of bloodiness and chaos, and will have to repeat whenever a new gang appears and tries to become a state.
Mandatory military service breeds corruption and violence, there’s a reason many countries abolished it. You are putting hundreds of dumbass teenage boys, whose parents weren’t rich enough to afford a waiver, all together governed by people who intentionally went into service (often not the brightest kind to say the least) and expect good things to happen. Countries that have immediate concern for invasions from neighbours should invest in an actual paid standing army, if they can’t - too fucking bad.
My experience is that people who say they’ll definitely enlist and who shame others for being “cowards”, well, mostly haven’t enlisted (too young, too sick, too activist, not AMAB, emigrated at first opportunity) since shit hit the fan. I haven’t enlisted because I have chronic health issues; this didn’t stop cops from distrusting my documents, detaining me and trying to forcefully enlist me. I’m supposed to go through the military medical commision every year but I don’t trust them (only did it once), there’s lots of neglect and abuse happening during the actual war; if I go through it again and this time they disregard my diagnoses, I’ll face prison. I respect those who enlist though, and donated my enlisted friends money for equipment when I had a better salary; I also closed my civilian black-day deposit and lent the military money for a year (the profit covers a part of what I have to pay the lawyer who’ll try to object to my illegal detention and fine).
Welcome to Greece, where once you turn adult(18-19), you have to go to army. If you don’t show up, police or stratonomia searches for you, and if you fully never show up, you are called insubordination, and you get fine around 6k and you go to military court. You get to serve 12 months on mainland, 9 in boarders. The only way to avoid it is if you have some kind of medical situation, pay for it or have someone to move the strings, and still they will accept you, but unarmed. Apart from it, the worst part, is the training, they teach you old stupid stuff, and the weapons are so bad that you can’t even hit target, no matter how good you are! I did 9 months, and the training was the worst thing I ever done on a WW2 machinery. The thing is that training will probably change, as army is doing changes lately(Bless Niko Dendias). Will see.
What’s the public opinion regarding Greek politicians? Is it worth fighting for the government? Speaking of that, I’ve heard that Americans who refused the draft back in the 60s crossed the Canadian border. I mean, can people in Greece just enter and hide in neighboring countries to avoid conscription?
Of course it’s not worth fighting for a government that can’t stop scandals going on and on IMO. I forgot to mention that we where used to get paid 8.50 euros per month, which a year after was raised, but still, what they expect us to do with 8.50??
You can leave the country, but after a while they call you deserter, and coming to Greece will be limited, I think max 3 months of stay.
Greek politicians have a bad reflection.8.50 euros
Is that after taxes? WTF? Might as well consider it a “slave” wage. For perspective: a private in the US army gets paid $28,886 (~24,957€) per annum or about $2,407.20 (~2,079.80€) per month.
I’m quite glad to see that most of the answers are positive here. It used to be the other way around, of course this thread is not representative of the whole Europe, but anyways…
I’m a Finn, so I went. My plan was to do the minimum and get the hell out of there. But after 6 weeks I liked the guys in my group, I actually enjoyed having to actually do something different for a change, not just sit at the computer or go to band practice/gigs. So when the 8 week starting period ended and it became time to choose what you want to “specialize” in, I checked the boxes for NCO and officer training. Didn’t get to go for the officer training but got to go to be a NCO. I was in the artillery. My job was to figure out where we were and which direction we were pointing. So I learned a lot of stuff about maps, that was fun because I love maps. I also learned how to take the position and direction from the moon and stars, that was fun because I love stars and space shit. I learned a bunch of other skills as well. If I were a dictator, I’d force everyone to go, at least for 5-6 months. You learn skills that you might not need, sure, but you also learn stuff that you didn’t know you needed.
Over the years I’ve heard people say “I wouldn’t go because my country is not worth fighting for.” I would understand that if you are from russia or some such place. But so many Germans have said it to me and I’m just baffled by that. Like okay, I get it, the government is shit. But in a war, you are not defending just the government, you are defending your family, friends, your house, the park you walk through, the way you live, the way your neighbor lives. Are those not worth defending? I’m fine if you are a pacifist and wont take up arms, thats fine. But if you say your country is not worth defending and you live in Europe, thats just ridiculous.
I’m a misanthrope and I hate most people, but if someone tries to come to my yard and start some shit, I’m gonna go fight, out of spite, if not for anything else. I want to hate people in my own terms, I want to tell people to fuck off in Finnish in Finland. Not in russia.
Well, I have a lot of thoughts about your text. I’ve been a conscript in the German military around 2007. It was a fascist infested environment back then, it is worse today. A lot of officers openly revered the Wehrmacht, one officer candidate called another conscript “you jewish pig” and so on and so forth. So, there’s that. But the most thoughts I had about “fighting for something”, so let’s go through it:
you are defending your family, friends
OK, so I fight at the front while maybe they are bombed at home. I’d rather use my skills to take the Balkan route the other way around with them to safety
your house
I don’t have a house, probably never will own one, cannot afford. I would be defending the house of my landlord who owns 6 houses. I don’t see the need.
the park you walk through
It is a nice park, but the playgrounds for my children are broken, as “we don’t have the money to fix them”. Yeah, right, maybe ask my landlord about where that money is. The austerity kills everything beautiful in the cities, but apparently “there’s no alternative”. So in five years time the park is not worth defending anymore.
the way you live
You mean slaving in a soulless office for scraps, that will never buy me a home (see above), while politicians tell me “you need to work more for your country, oh, btw, we cannot afford social security and healthcare anymore ¯\_(ツ)_/¯” All the while my kids go crazy with all the pressure and constant crisis around them.
the way your neighbor lives
Not gonna defend that asshole. He wants to ban gay marriage, deport brown people and thinks renewable energy will, idk, kill him or something.
I mean, yeah, it’s oc very cynical, but that is the gist of it.
OK, so I fight at the front while maybe they are bombed at home. I’d rather use my skills to take the Balkan route the other way around with them to safety
When the Ukraine war started, I made a plans. If russia would have attacked us, I made a plan for my (now ex) German girlfriend to join my parents and for them to go to my sisters house in the north west of the country and from there over to Sweden, from there possibly back to Germany or just stay in Sweden. I would have gone to the front lines while they do that.
I don’t have a house, probably never will own one, cannot afford. I would be defending the house of my landlord who owns 6 houses. I don’t see the need.
So instead of paying rent, you’d rather have your house bombed to the ground? Seems a bit weird but okay…
It is a nice park, but the playgrounds for my children are broken, as “we don’t have the money to fix them”. Yeah, right, maybe ask my landlord about where that money is. The austerity kills everything beautiful in the cities, but apparently “there’s no alternative”. So in five years time the park is not worth defending anymore.
So the better option is to let a russian tank roll over the remains of the park and maybe set up a air defense system there?
You mean slaving in a soulless office for scraps, that will never buy me a home (see above), while politicians tell me “you need to work more for your country, oh, btw, we cannot afford social security and healthcare anymore ¯_(ツ)_/¯” All the while my kids go crazy with all the pressure and constant crisis around them.
“Things are bad now so I’m fine with them getting horribly bad. I work in a horrible job so I’m okay if bombs start raining on peoples houses.”
Not gonna defend that asshole. He wants to ban gay marriage, deport brown people and thinks renewable energy will, idk, kill him or something.
“My neighbor is a bigoted arsehole, so I’m fine with the whole neighborhood being razed to the ground”
Might be cynical but that’s how I hear what you are saying.
“I am not willing to fight and die for the stuff I don’t find that good and rather flee”
is very different from
“I find it better if everything and everybody burns”
like you interpreted what I wrote.
Well that’s what it sounds like to me. You’d rather let the pan fire get out of hand, run outside and hope the fire department gets there in time, rather than covering the pot with a fire blanket or a lid.
the government is shit
I hear that kind of response from Americans regarding the draft (well… Trump is in office, a president who is a convicted felon by the way) so hence why they would rather be in prison instead of either dying on foreign soil or be scarred with PTSD whilst being neglected by the “system” that’s meant to help.I wouldn’t go because my country is not worth fighting for.
It’s the same for the US, knowing them: like with the Iraq war (Bush uses the pretense of WMD’s in which there are none found) both soldiers and marines died for a conflict Bush initiated. In their case, most of the wars (outside their own borders) are instigated by their own government.Seems like I didn’t finish my thought there, I was in the middle of only my second cup of morning coffee, sorry for being a bit unclear!
But yes, I would include the US in “russia or some such place.” I would argue that the US has not fought a defensive war since 1945. So I would exclude them from the “defending your country” thing. If you join the US armed forces, you are not going to defend your country, if anything, you are making the world more dangerous for your fellow countrymenwomen.
So if you are a American, I probably agree with any and all reasons to not join the military. But thats also why I included the bit about “if you are European” in my original post.
I’m not sure about Finland or the EU, but often or not the US one involves the MIC (sotateollinen kompleksi) in which is the relationship between defense companies and the government, in a business sense - they profit from war via the arms trade as weapons are used in wars made by those companies.
Yes, another good reason for not dying for the benefit of the US corporate world.
Does Finland have a MIC? (And yes, the US shouldn’t be considered a country, more like a corporation).
We do have Patria and sako, patria mainly produces versatile armoured vehicles to be used as apcs/mounted with weapon systems they also produce mortar systems and some other things, Sako produces small arms
We do. Patria and Sako probably the biggest ones.
Swede here, we had conscription when I came of age, so I was called to muster.
I went, and promptly failed the first test, the hearing test, I got a pass and didn’t have to do it.
At the time I was glad, I was scared, I didn’t want to do it, these days I think it would have been a valuable experience.
Anyway, I believe Sweden is worth fighting for, should we come under attack, I would get in touch with the civil defense and do my part.
As a Finn, it’s good to hear that you’ve got our back.
It was a sad day for us when Sweden switched from a conscription army to the much smaller version it is today.Interesting tidbit, it was explained to us in the military as a move made because you felt safe with us as the defending wall between you and the eastern aggressor.
Now as part of NATO, I hope you’ll come to our aid none the less.
Oh, it was an absolute shit decision to get rid of conscription here.
We don’t have the resources to provide enough benefits to attract enough people to join the military on their own, so conscription is the only realistic way forward.
I am a strong believer helping our neighbors if they come under attack, even if the government won’t, and I know I am not alone with that viewpoint.
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Not sure about today, a few years after I mustered conscription was stopped, then for 15 years or so, we had no conscription, but a few years ago it was reinstated.
If you were selected back when most men was conscripted, you had the option to pick a weapon free service, you still had to serve, but in the civilian world, say like a firefighter or similar. Complete refusal would eventually lead to prison time.
When I mustered, they were completely open with the fact that if you didn’t want to do it, it would be taken into account, and mostly respected, depending on the circumstances.
They didn’t really want people who didn’t want to be there.
Yes, refusing draft is punishable by jail. I knew people that were hiding from MP for years. It’s not like they had to hide in some basement but they definitely couldn’t just live under their registered address. The risk of getting arrested was always there. There was some statue of limitations on it so you only had to hide until you’re 28 or something like that.
As for your question, for me it depends on the war. If someone would try to draft to invade other country I would refuse. If other country invaded Spain I would defend it (well, not Catalonia or Pais Vasco obviously but other communities for sure).
depends on the war
When referencing from the American perspective: A LOT or often - it involves the MIC (complejo militar-industrial) which in their case is the collab between defense companies (i.e. Lockheed Martin) & the government on making the big bucks (basically making money by arms trading). I’m not sure about Spain though…Spain haven’t invaded other countries in some time and there’s pretty much 0 chance it will start drafting people for a war abroad. If it tried I would refuse.
I mean, does Spain really have a military industrial complex? Which is basically politico-military relations, like a “business” rapport between the government, armed forces and defense contractors? Are there even weapons manufactuers based & operated in Spain (like how the US has Raytheon)?
Every country has weapons manufacturers. It’s a strategic industry and every country tries hard to maintain it. You don’t want to end up in a situation where you import all your weapons because if shit hits the fan you can be completely cut off and defenseless. So typically government tries to prop up local industry by ordering weapons from them. If they are lucky they also sell something to other countries. Spain for example manufactures some airplanes for Airbus, like CASA and they assemble Eurofighters. They have their own submarine program and build their own navy. Indra is a really big company for example. But it’s all tiny in comparison with US and not a corrupt so it’s difficult to convince politicians to start a war just to sell more weapons.
import all your weapons because if shit hits the fan you can be completely cut off and defenseless Believe it or not, the US (despite being a “first world” country) still imports semi conductors from China which are used for advanced military hardware but access can be revoked at any time if they’re at war.
Yes, it’s a global economy and dependencies exist. Everyone is still trying to limit them as much as possible.
