Chanting ‘from the river to the sea’ would be criminalised under proposed state law
And let me guess, the proposed law does not criminalize anyone saying “Between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty” (Likud’77) or denying Palestinians the right to self-determination (there is no such thing as a state’s right to exist under international law, contrary to the very real right to self-determination, enshrined in the UN Charter, that Germany is a signatory to).
These jewish-supremacist idiots are fuelling anti-Semitism, while propping up a genocidal apartheid regime.
Fuck the speech police
Israel: a country so weak and pathetic it controls peoples speech.
The tought police will get you next
What’s considered hate speech or incitement changes constantly.
Yes, well it’s contextual
However no nation should be above or afraid of criticism. The reason Israel is is because it’s actions are indefensible. It has no choice to shut down speech.
* proposed law, which likely won’t pass.
But, true enough, the proposition is insane.
Supporting any Palestinian group in Germany in public will get you arrested. All Palestinian charities are banned due to links to ‘terrorism’ (aka the actual government of the gaza strip which any organization would have to work with in order to do things, you know, like how all states work.)
Supporting any Palestinian group in Germany in public will get you arrested
My auntie just visited and left 30 minutes ago. She participates basically in any Pro-Palestine protest in Frankfurt and vincinity. She was never arrested.
My father, who went to his last demonstrations some 45 years ago even participated in some Pro Palestine protests. He was not arrested.
My mother wrote to the government of Hesse like every other week to take down the Israel flag in front of the government seat, and, believe it or not, she was not arrested.
The climate around supporting Palestine in Germany is bad. Many people get arrested and that is wrong. But claims like “showing support for any Palestinian group will get you arrested” are not true (yet).
One of the big tests whether ‘free speech’ means something or whether Germany is a vassal state is still in the juidical system (obviously source in German). I hope once the constitutional court rules, it’ll be on the right side of history.
The idea that people breaking the law do not always get caught means there is no law is ridiculous, especially when you state people are being arrested for it.
‘not getting caught’ as in being in a protest accompanied by a lot of policemen? They don’t go to a dark alley and whisper “free Palestine” in order to not “get caught” 😅
There’s no law prohibiting to support Palestine. As you can see in the source I linked before. There are very controversial takes about what crosses the line. The famous “from the river to the sea” being one of it. People who are brought to court for that half go free, half get sentenced. That shows that even within “the system” it is very unclear. Thus, it’s about time to get a ruling by the highest court. I guess one day that will even go to the European Court, and I anticipate that it will rule in favor of free speech.
And guess who’s arrested and brutalized by the police? PoC, because the police is racist, and voicing support for Palestine gives them a reason - like “I heard those PoC say ‘death to all Jews’, so let’s beat them up. If they defend themselves we bring them to court for resistance, all my police buddies heard it as well”. But not because there’s some distinguished law against “supporting Palestine”.
Can’t speak for Germany but in the United Kingdom it’s Palestine Action that has been officially declared a terrorist organisation because they stormed an army base. That means it’s illegal to protest for Palestine Action, but you can still protest in support of Palestine.
Israeli people have as much right to exist as Palestinian people. So let’s not genocide the Palestinians, no matter how desperately Golda Meir claimed they’re not real. Israel has a right to exist =/= Israel has a right to slaughter a culture. It’s not fucking hard you cunts
It is really hard if you’re only able to see the world in binary choices, which seems to be a common root of issues around the world
This is basically the downfall of America.
As a non-American it doesn’t appear as a loss really…
I just hope they don’t import their culture war BS here any further.
Unabated social media will take down other countries too
I think we should require all social media be federated and generally domestic
What’s lost and worthy was lost long ago
Does human have right to exist? If yes, then those who identify themselves as Israeli and those who identify themselves as Palestinians have the right to exist.
However, including Israel as a state and government in this statement doesn’t make sense.
Its like someone going to another person house and take over a room then say I have the right to exist. Yes you have the right to exist but not the right to steal, and control the house. Now this state literally committing an ongoing genocide. So yes they state doesn’t have the right to exist.
Israel doesn’t have a right to exist though, it’s explicitly from the outset a genocidal colony in stolen land
Israel is not israeli people, the former of which has no right to exist, the latter of which exists as a temporary and exceedingly new political fiction.
To me, the real tragedy is that a shared identity really could be forged between these two groups. In another world, I can imagine a beautiful fusion between the Israelis and Palestinians, like two trees growing around one another.
So much of the conflict in the West is viewed from a Biblical lens. Israel represents the return of the Jews to their ancestral homeland! But really what present-day Israel represents is the spiritual descendants of the Biblical Israel ruling over and occupying the genetic descendants of the Biblical Israel.
Through this thread, a common identity could be forged. That kind of shared identity is the kind of thing that national identities could be forged from. Instead of “Israel” being defined as “the Jewish homeland.” “Israel” could be defined as “the home of the genetic and spiritual descendants of ancient Israel.” This conflict need not always be “the Jews vs the Palestinians.” It could simply be one type of Israeli and another type of Israeli. Some claim that name by blood. Some claim that name by religion. But both are united in one nation.
To me, the real tragedy is that a shared identity really could be forged between these two groups. In another world, I can imagine a beautiful fusion between the Israelis and Palestinians, like two trees growing around one another.
That existed before 1929.
they do if they hadnt forcibly removed palestinians from the area since ww2.
Israel has a right to exist =/= Israel has a right to slaughter a culture.
That’s the thing; under the UN charter, peoples have a right to exist, not states. Basically, what becomes of the region should be decided by the entire population living in it, but it seems like half of said population isn’t getting much of a voice.
Golda Meir claimed they’re not real
She claimed there was no real separate Palestinian Arab identity from for example the Arabs in Jordan. That might even be true for the 1920s and earlier.
It took a while for Palestinian identity and nationalism to fully emerge and organize, including calling themselves Palestinians. By the founding of the PLO this has clearly achieved.
The name Palestinian was used by Jews in Palestine to describe themselves before Israel‘s independence. During the British Mandate Palestinian Arabs were not so fond of the word Palestinian to describe themselves, although some did.
It’s mainly an argument about the emergence of identity and the how words change meaning over time.
Quite frankly, they don’t.
They were invited refuge, turned violent and annexed the region, and have continued to be violent bloodthirsty pigs ever since.
They were invited refuge
The League of Nations had designated Palestine as a future homeland for the Jewish people. Only a minority of local Arabs welcomed those that came.
Palestinian Arabs started the violent Arab Revolt in 1939 in order to stop Jewish refugees from immigrating. The British accommodated them by severely restricting the number of Jews they allowed into the country. They took it seriously. Thousands of Jewish refugees were held by the British in camps on Cyprus during the 1940s.
People who are now Israelis have a right to exist, just like everybody else.
The nation of Israel has no right to exist, same as all other nations.
Funny how racialized politics, autoritarianist tendencies and even a certain view of nation states as more important than people, did not stop when NAZI Germany was defeated and are still very much alive and acted on in Germany - the symbols such as swasticas and goose-stepping aren’t displayed anymore but the fundational aspects of the NAZI view of the world, of the value of people and of the validity of the use of force to suppress ideas the powerful dislike, are still alive and well in Germany.
The nation of Israel has no right to exist, same as all other nations.
I don’t know about this as a blanket declaration. I’m no moral philosopher, but if I can imagine Trump saying this in a speech announcing the annexation of Canada, then there’s probably something morally wrong with.
People have rights.
Social constructs have no rights.
What you’re missing in your interpretation of your own example is the consideration that the right to exist, to be free and to chose how they rule of the people currently in the territory of Canada is what would be under threat by Trump, not some imaginary “right” of Canada. Canada should not exist due to any inherent “right” of nation states, it should exist if and only it helps uphold the rights of people.
The social construct called Israel in overall does not uphold the rights of people: sure it does support some rights for some specific people, but it suppresses rights for far more people than it supports, especially the most important one of all - the right to life. The social construct called Israel as it is now should not exist because it oppresses more people than it supports and it’s the people who have rights.
People have a right to self determination and that includes nations.
Not really. There’s no place in my country or anywhere else on earth I can go with like-minded people to form a new nation.
That’s why Israel was created under European imperialist occupation. Is that self-determination?
German government seems to be as shamelessly bribed and corrupt as Americas.
When it comes to Israel, sort of.
Germany is making extreme over-corrections for their past. Everything related to the two world wars and the role they played in it is subject to censorship and oversight, to a degree that’s almost comical if it weren’t real.
ONE MILLION Roma were murdered by the NAZIs during the Holocaust, alongside 3 million Jews.
Notice how German politicians don’t “unwaveringly support” the Roma. In fact, they don’t even talk about them.
The “change” in Germany after NAZIsm wasn’t the end of the idea that ethnicity defines how somebody should be treated or that some ethnicities are “good” and others are “bad”, it was merelly moving the Jewish People from the “bad” ethnicity to the “good” ethnicity column.
A consistent and non-racist “correction” for Germany’s past would see all of the actual victims of NAZIsm and their descendants being compensated for it, be they Roma, Jews, Handicaped, Homosexuals, Communists or from any other group, and ONLY the victims, not this Racist bullshit of claiming that all individuals of an entire and very specific ethnicity are all deserving of support even though the vast majority of them are in no way form or shape related to the victims of the NAZIs except for being born in the same ethnicity, whilst not doing it for those from other equally targetted groups (something I emphasize because it really shows how even the supposed “making of amends” is done in a Racist way).
This shit we see in Germany is not a genuine change from the way of thinking of the past, it’s just in the face of defeat doing the minimum required adjustment to the defeated political ideology to please the victors, which was moving a specific ethnicity which is influential in the main winner country of the war from untermenschen to ubermenschen, without doing it for any other targetted ethnicity, much less actually reforming the way of thinking about and acting towards people as “ethnics” that underpinned NAZIsm or even, as we see in this law, refuse to use force to silence dissenting opinions.
The “change” in Germany is mainly changing the façade, not at all the foundations - i.e. image management, not reform - hence how right now the open racism of “unwaveringly supporting” a genocidal nation with no other reason than the dominant ethnicity there and the choice of using force against those who disagree such as this law are right alongside:
Everything related to the two world wars and the role they played in it is subject to censorship and oversight, to a degree that’s almost comical if it weren’t real.
It’s not particularly complex. Israel spends hundreds of millions a year on hasbara. In fact they upped the budget by more than 4x this year. Any German politician saying anything against Israel would be seen as Hitler 2.0 by a lot of people, because Israel == Jews and disagreeing with Israel == wanting to genocide Jews if it comes from a German politician in particular.
In 2008, Merkel actually said Israel’s security is Germany’s reason for existence. Merz, an Israel supporter himself, said in October that Germany can’t support another government “unconditionally” because the first priority of a government should be the people that live in the country itself.
Overall, support for Israel is down in Germany (among real people, not politicians), but there’s still a bunch of international propaganda by Israel making Israel out to be victims of literally everything and associating all Jewish people with Israel despite the fact that internationally, many disagree with zionism.
It’ll take long for things to change significantly, but change is underway.
Good.
That said my point still stands that the “support” for the Jewish People in Germany was never a visible element of a move away from the way of thinking which was the foundation of NAZIsm, it was only a façade whilst the Racism remained unabatted and the authoritarian tendencies were only mildly suppressed, as demonstrated by the totally different treatment extended to other victims of the Holocaust such as the Roma People, by the continuation of Race-centric treatment of people when supposedly moving away from the NAZI years into the “making of amends” to the victims (rather than a race-agnostic victim-centric view) and by the repeated use of Force in Germany to suppress political dissent such as llustrated by this law (and the countless videos of the politzei’s treatment of anti-Genocide demonstrators).
At least at the level of the political elites Germany is not a modern liberal nation, it’s a Racist nation with a very limited and mainly performative bit of “liberalism” (in such a fertile field of Race-centric and Authoritarian thinking, no wonder the growth of the AfD)
Germany (and the rest of the West, but Germany is significantly worse than most, IMHO) needs to move away from from the Normalized Racism of using people’s ethnicity as a determinant of their worth and deserved treatment and towards Humanist views, as well as away from creeping Authoritarianism like this.
It was and is so easy for the Zionists in Israel to manipulate Germany exactly because the latter country doesn’t really follow Humanist values (it just puts on a show of being a “modern” “liberal” country) hence the reaction to the Zionist Genocide was not the Humanist reaction (your actions define your worth and thus our support, and those who mass murder civilians don’t get our support), it was the extreme Racist reaction (the Kanzelier proclaiming “we unwaveringly support the Jewish Nation” at a point when the list of murdered babies 1 year old or younger in Gaza was already 17 pages long) and the Racism and Authoritarianism have carried on since, hence the continued forcefull suppression of anti-Genocide views, including this law.
And this shit wasn’t just the CDU and SDP, even the Greens had a Race-centric take rather than a Humanist one, holding a position which can only be derived from the belief that Race is more important than even Human Life.
All this to say that the change that has to happen for Germany to enter the XXI century is a lot deeper and fundamental than the miniscule step of stopping the “unwavering support for Jewish Nation”.
You gotta be careful with these levels of truth
I’m agreeing with you entirely, but I would be remiss if I didn’t point out that 6 million Jews were killed in the Holocaust - 3 million in the camps, and the remainder in the Holocaust-by-bullets or in mobile gas chamber vans or some other means.
Also, fun fact about West Germany, they made all the gay concentration camp inmates serve out the rest of their sentences (though I believe at regular prisons) since being gay was still illegal. The DDR did not do this. West Germany also had a program to place foster children with pedophiles since they figured they’d love them. I shit you not.
I was kinda for it, but with the dangerous rise in quasi-nazi party AfD, I wonder what’s the point of banning a nazi flag… and it’s even more ridiculous that foreign ethno religious supremacists enjoy that level of protection.
The over correcting logic doesn’t hold much.
From a business point of view when dealing with Israel, it doesn’t take much to figure out they are blocking or limiting Palestinians business.
From a military point of view, it doesn’t take much to realize how genocidal most of these technologies are.
With the US, we can attribute the support to many things, political reasons, capitalism, religious with Christian Zionists, and even blunt blackmailing. However, with Germany all these doesn’t work as well.
Personally, I think German rather have Zionist there than being in Europe. Which is the ultimate solution. If Israel fail, most of these people will go back where they came from ( Poland, Russia, Germany, France, England) or immigrate to NA or SA which would be another problem no one want to deal with.
Germany sees support for Israel‘s existence as preventing another Holocaust of the Jewish people.
In the 1950s Israel‘s economy was in shambles. So they accepted money from Germany to build their country, much of it went into buying heavy machinery from Germany.
Over time Germany and Israel cooperated militarily more. The Bundeswehr used the Uzi submachine gun for example and the Israeli Merkava tank uses German technology.
Germany also sold submarines to Israel, which are capable of launching nuclear missiles. Some of the submarines were paid for by Germany. The capability for a nuclear second strike via submarines is regarded as insurance for Israel‘s existence.
German involvement with Israel/Palestine goes back a long time. German Jews were important in the Zionist movement and founding of Israel. On the other hand the Palestinian leader Al-Husseini lived in Germany during WW2 and worked for the Nazis.
During the Cold War East Germany was among the first countries to support the PLO. West German leftist terrorists like RAF (Baader-Meinhof) cooperated with Palestinian militants and conducted several high profile operations together (e.g. Entebbe).
The Palestinian terrorist attack on the Israeli Olympic team 1972 in Munich was a major embarrassment for the German government.
business
Israel is a highly developed country. Palestine has a small economy compared to Israel. A big part of Palestinian trade goes through Israel anyway. Germany doesn’t sanction trade with Palestine in any way. As a matter of fact Germany has long supported a Palestinian state as part of a two state solution and is one of the major sources of funding for the Palestinian Authority and development projects in Palestine.
back where they came from
More than half of Israeli Jews are Mizrahi, who were expelled from Muslim and Arab countries. They can’t go back. Besides that most Israelis were born in the country.
Maybe part of it but Maxwell and Epstein also operated in Europe. Germany has billionaires and easily compromised politicians.
They operated “in Europe” the same way Apple or Google does. They’re still subject to EU law, and while not infallible, Europe has shown it doesn’t just pave the way for oligarchy the same way the US does.
How much do you know about the Rothschilds and France?
Yes a slightly harder target but those UK arrests were because they sold UK secrets and got publicly caught. Very little has been done. The couple emailing about hunting humans, they’re Rothschilds.
Israel is still in Eurovision dude. You’re in a better position than Americans but don’t get complacent and start believing Israel and Russia weren’t actively competing for kompromat in your neck of the woods.
I know that the Rothschilds are a popular talking point for conspiracy nuts, and whenever I hear the name brought up I must prepare myself for some serious eye rolling exercises.
Yeah. That’s what everyone I’ve told this to has said. Next is the part where you google it and read a few very short e-mails several times trying to find some other meaning than what it sounds like.
Also Epstein seems to have regularly been introducing himself as the Rothschild’s money guy.
Dude, I’ve been exposed to this bullshit my entire life. You are not going to miraculously change anything by being umpteenth person to tell me to look up shit or “do my own research”.
It’s just tiresome and pathetic.
Tattorack, thats a theory that night be true-- do you have any data to show us that helps prove its accurate?
That’s not so much a theory as it’s just observing what Germany is doing.
They have strict rules on portrayals of Nazis and Nazi symbols that lead them to censor movies, games, comics, and other media. Examples of this include Indiana Jones or Wolfenstein.
The education system is very strict and specific about what it can talk about concerning the world wars and Germany. If you want detailed explanations, I have a few German friends I could ask directly.
I could also ask them to explain how often Germany paid Israel for WWII reperations and how WWII shaped all rhetoric involving Jews.
Okay Germany, but this time they might deserve some of the hate.
Albert Einstein’s letter to the NY Times was 100% correct about Israel and Palestine. Is the German government going to trash his name too?
So called right to exist.
Are they going to make the cells out of Irony?
Two wrongs don’t make one right, my fellow Germans!
A liberal democracy, apparently
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Yeah, it really looks like Germany has learned the wrong lesson from the Holocaust.
“Genocide for thee, not for mee”
EDIT: Yes Lemmy, if you take Palestine, give it’s territory to Israel and disband Palestine, and then impose control upon them - that’s a form of genocide.
But of course you want this towards another country/state, just giving you a good example of your own hypocrisy.
Weird how you’re getting downvoted when it’s just facts. No reasoning or anything either.
Are you the moron who reported my comment “genocidal”? Wtf is wrong with you? How dense do you have to be to have that interpretation?
Israel is an erhnostate. It’s existence is built on genocide. I said Germany shouldn’t support the state of Israel because it is inherently genocidal, and it fucking is. That means Germany ignored the lessons they were supposed to learn from the Holocaust and is endorsing genocide.
Maybe think before you comment and report baselessly like that.
Ethnic nationalism is a medieval idea that creates unstable societies
medieval idea
Multiethnic empires were medieval practice.
Ethnic nationalism was a liberation of the people from imperial rule after those empires collapsed.
I don’t even know who you are, but to me it’s quite clear they feel like they owe to the Jews, but hey, those are just my last 2 brain cells connecting the dots and not being obnoxious or angry online, or insulting others based on assumptions
So what part of owing the Jews plays into their support of Israel(a state that does not represent Jews as an ethnicity) factors into supporting:
An apartheid ethnostate?
Genocide against Palestinians?
Rampant and violent expansionism in Palestine?
Rampant and violent expansionism against nearly all of Israel’s neighbors?
Mass rape of prisoners of war?
Employing the most notorious pedophile to traffic minors to rich elites and politicians in an elaborate blackmail scheme?
An illegal and offensive war with Iran that has tanked the global economy?
Illegally possessing nuclear weapons and threatening to use them against Palestine?
Exporting mass surveillance technology to authoritarian regimes?
These are just a few of Israel’s crimes against humanity. But I guess you think Germany should have to endlessly support those monsters.
So what part of owing the Jews plays into their support of Israel(a state that does not represent Jews as an ethnicity) factors into supporting:
Jesse, what the fuck are you talking about? You can’t even easily get a citizenship without Jewish links, and that’s not even without getting into the WW2 and how modern Israel came to be (again?)
An apartheid ethnostate?
It might be best to refrain from using words whose definitions can be a bit advanced, and therefore end up being misused in completely wrong contexts.
For the rest of your points - I just simply stated why Germany does this, not really getting into why they should not, but if you look at the Ie. military exports, then it has fallen quite drastically, so the support has definitely fallen.
When it comes to Europe and support of Islamic States versus support for other western countries or their allies - I don’t think I need to elaborate here.
So what part of owing the Jews plays into their support of Israel(a state that does not represent Jews as an ethnicity) factors into supporting:
Jesse, what the fuck are you talking about?
You said something incredibly stupid and I’m wanting answers about it. I highly doubt the Germans feel they owe the Jews to the point Israel should have their full support to commit crimes against humanity.
Also, Israel DOES NOT represent Jews as an ethnicity nor a religion. Don’t spew Zionist propaganda.
You can’t even easily get a citizenship without Jewish links,
Yes, because its an ethnostate.
and that’s not even without getting into the WW2 and how modern Israel came to be (again?)
Yes, it came to be through a fascist ideology (colonialism and Zionism) and genocide of Palestinians (the Nakba). Did Geany owe the Jews to the point of supporting those atrocities?
It might be best to refrain from using words whose definitions can be a bit advanced,
ISRAEL IS INDISPUTABLY A GENOCIDAL APARTHEID STATE
May want to join us in reality.
and therefore end up being misused in completely wrong contexts.
May not want to dish out advice you clearly do not have any intentions to follow.
For the rest of your points - I just simply stated why Germany does this, not really getting into why they should not,
My points are to bring up the absurdity of your statement. Israel is not some gift to the Jews. It’s a genocidal monster and you can’t in earnest pretend for a second that the German political class isn’t fully aware of this by this point.
but if you look at the Ie. military exports, then it has fallen quite drastically, so the support has definitely fallen.
Support above 0% is too much and unjustifiable.
This article isn’t even about support. Its about censoring dissent against the GENOCIDAL APARTHEID STATE OF ISRAEL.
When it comes to Europe and support of Islamic States versus support for other western countries or their allies - I don’t think I need to elaborate here
Yes, you do. Its an irrelevant point but do elaborate.
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I wrote a pretty long comment arguing all your points, but in the end realized that what I’m doing is pretty stupid from me as this is equalivent of arguing with a religious person or MAGA fanatic - completely detached from reality. All I can just say that please do not argue like this outside of 4chan and Lemmy or you will have a terrible time. It’s also seriously not wise to take awful historical events (Ie. Apartheid) and suddenly change their meaning and apply it to completely unrelated events/countries, downplaying the original event.
When did Israel threaten to nuke Palestinians?
Germany supports the existence of Israel, not all of their policies.
Quite a leap from a legitimate criticism over their politicians actions to denying a whole people statehood… Maybe add some nuance to your thinking like the other comments on this thread have.
No. No ethnic group is entitled to their own statehood. That’s a blatant endorsement of ethnostates, which is an inherently authoritarian and genocidal concept.
Also, some random dickhead reported my comment for “promotion g genocide”. Some real backwards ass shit right there.
There is a reason the Jews needed a place to go. Neither the first nor last time probably this reason exists. Probably simpler to give them a place of refuge. Also your comment shows you don’t know how Palestine cameu to be, because it happens to match exactly these circumstances as well. Should we treat them the same as you suggest we treat Israel?
Nobody expected them to go full fascism and genocidal. But then again, this is the cycle of abuse, isn’t it?
There is a reason the Jews needed a place to go.
And that has literally nothing to do with the modern state of Israel. Zionism is the sole reason it exists.
Neither the first nor last time probably this reason exists.
Still has nothing to do with the modern state of Israel other than an excuse to justify its existence when people point out its a rogue and genocidal nuclear state.
Probably simpler to give them a place of refuge.
Virtually all Western countries, hell even some of the Eastern European countries at the time would have been preferable, and mostly familiar countries for them to live in.
Tell me, was it simpler to start genocide against Palestine and to create a state that would perpetually continue this genocide and act as the West’s puppet state in the region? An imperial puppet that keeps invading its neighbors unprovoked and now illegally has nukes? I think it would have been easier to simply give them refuge in safer countries, such as those that liberated Jews in the Holocaust.
I mean seriously, are you trying to justify the state that was fucking founded on genocide
Also your comment shows you don’t know how Palestine cameu to be, because it happens to match exactly these circumstances as well.
Completely irrelevant to this conversation. Palestinians had been living in the region for centuries. Modern Israel only formed as Zionists demanded the Jews rule the region for religious nut-jobbery and antisemitism, in relatively recent history.
Should we treat them the same as you suggest we treat Israel?
You understand Palestine is actively undergoing a 80 year long genocide from Israel, right?
The audacity and stupidity of your question is outstanding.
No, I believe we should treat Israel like Nazi Germany. The parallels are absurdly on point, and they must be stopped.
Nobody expected them to go full fascism and genocidal.
Wrong, their country was founded on it in both ideology and action.
But then again, this is the cycle of abuse, isn’t it?
Absolutely moronic and unhinged take. This is some insane Zionist bullshit you’re spewing here. Is Israel paying you to say this shit? Or are you defending a rogue genocidal nuclear state for free?
What you’re arguing mixes a few real points with several claims that don’t hold up factually, and it ends up oversimplifying a very complex and still ongoing conflict.
First: the link between Jewish persecution and the creation of Israel is not “nothing.” Modern political Zionism (associated with figures like Theodor Herzl) predates the Holocaust, but the scale of the genocide during The Holocaust was a decisive factor in accelerating international support for a Jewish state. That’s historical consensus, not a post-hoc excuse.
Second: the idea that Jews could simply have been “given refuge” elsewhere ignores what actually happened. During the 1930s–40s, many Western countries severely restricted Jewish immigration (e.g. Évian Conference showed how little willingness there was to accept refugees). In practice, there was no large-scale safe alternative offered.
Third: the founding of Israel in 1948 did involve mass displacement of Palestinians (often referred to as the Nakba). That is a documented and serious historical grievance. But calling the state’s creation or its entire existence “genocide” is not how genocide is defined under international law. The term is used very specifically (e.g. by the United Nations Genocide Convention), and its application to this conflict is heavily disputed among legal scholars and institutions.
Fourth: describing Israel as uniquely “invading neighbors unprovoked” or as a simple “puppet state” ignores that the region has seen multiple wars initiated by different sides (e.g. the Arab–Israeli War of 1948). Responsibility is not one-sided.
Finally: comparisons to Nazi Germany are not just inflammatory—they collapse fundamentally different historical contexts and tend to shut down any serious discussion rather than clarify it.
There are legitimate criticisms to make of Israeli policy (including settlement expansion, military actions, and treatment of Palestinians), just as there are real security concerns and historical traumas on the Israeli side. Reducing everything to “genocide vs. pure victimhood” on either side doesn’t reflect the evidence and makes meaningful analysis impossible.
What you’re arguing mixes a few real points with several claims that don’t hold up factually, and it ends up oversimplifying a very complex and still ongoing conflict.
Wrong but let’s see how you wasted time here.
First: the link between Jewish persecution and the creation of Israel is not “nothing.”
Oh of course not. Its the perpetual excuse Zionists use to justify Israel’s existence as a genocidal ethnostate and silence all opposition to it.
Modern political Zionism (associated with figures like Theodor Herzl) predates the Holocaust,
So does the alliance between Zionists and the Nazis
but the scale of the genocide during The Holocaust was a decisive factor in accelerating international support for a Jewish state.
Of course, fascists such as Zionists love to capitalize on a major catastrophe to push for their agendas.
Probably why so few countries acknowledge the Nakba that happened just 2 years after the end of WWII.
That’s historical consensus, not a post-hoc excuse.
Yup. Its a historical level manipulation of public outrage over a colossal genocide that lead to the creation of a Zionist genocidal state.
Second: the idea that Jews could simply have been “given refuge” elsewhere ignores what actually happened. During the 1930s–40s, many Western countries severely restricted Jewish immigration
You understand the vast majority of Jews who were victims and survivors of the Holocaust were citizens of the countries they were attacked in, right? They already had a country to go to, and a colossal amount of support that could just as easily been used to loosen immigration restrictions and welcome refugees.
But instead Zionism won out. That’s not a coincidence. That’s intentional manipulation of the situation.
You still haven’t gotten to any part that justifies support for Israel committing genocide against the Palestinians or the countless subsequent wars of aggression Israel held against its neighbors shortly after its founding.
(e.g. Évian Conference showed how little willingness there was to accept refugees). In practice, there was no large-scale safe alternative offered.
*Conveniently leaves out any specifics or dates.*
Do show me this data of low support for Jewish refugees or allowing Jews to return to their home countries after WWII.
Third: the founding of Israel in 1948 did involve mass displacement of Palestinians (often referred to as the Nakba).
What a cute way to describe GENOCIDE AND REMOVAL
That is a documented and serious historical grievance.
Given the little to no backlash Israel faced from the West, and the continued and escalating genocide against the Palestinians today, I don’t think too many Israelis and Western leaders feel grievance over it.
But calling the state’s creation or its entire existence “genocide” is not how genocide is defined under international law.
I’ve never read something so incredibly stupid before. I was taken aback by it.
- Israel was founded on genocide of Palestinians (The Nakba).
- Israel is an ethnostate. You can’t establish an ethnostate without forced removal, restriction and elimination of other ethnicities, which are all major factors in contributing to, and to even outright resulting in, GENOCIDE, which has objectively been happening since the beginning of modern Israel.
- If you’d like, we can easily go over the 10 Steps of Genocide and very easily discuss how Israel meets all 10 with flying colors.
The term is used very specifically (e.g. by the United Nations Genocide Convention),
And the term applies perfectly to what Israel is doing to Palestine, and let’s be honest, its neighbors like Lebanon.
and its application to this conflict is heavily disputed among legal scholars and institutions.
- God forbid you provide any specific reputable sources that could possibly deny Israel’s genocide of Palestinians.
- This is like an appeal to authority fallacy with absolutely no specific authorities given
- No one who’s word is worth a damn would consider Israel’s actions against Palestine to be anything other than genocide. To do so would be to deny reality.
Fourth: describing Israel as uniquely “invading neighbors unprovoked” or as a simple “puppet state” ignores that the region has seen multiple wars initiated by different sides
Throwing a whataboutism to justify Israel’s unjust and offensive wars against its neighbors such as Lebanon and Iran. There is no nuance to these wars, nor some others like when Israel invaded Egypt to steal the Suez Canal with the UK and France.
Nothing justifies these wars, and the situation is very clear cut.
(e.g. the Arab–Israeli War of 1948). Responsibility is not one-sided.
Here’s a great video of Mehdi Hasan did in response to an almost equally absurd claim from Bill Mahr:
Finally: comparisons to Nazi Germany are not just inflammatory—they collapse fundamentally different historical contexts and tend to shut down any serious discussion rather than clarify it.
ISRAEL OBJECTIVELY JUST LIKE NAZI GERMANY
- They’re committing genocide against ethnic minorities within their country
- They’re unjustly invading surrounding countries to expand their territory
- They intentionally and actively target noncombatants in war
- Their mainstream and most powerful politicians openly dehumanize other ethnic groups in the region while calling for their extermination
If you’re not seeing the parallels, you’re either that insanely naive, or a Zionist arguing in bad faith.
There are legitimate criticisms to make of Israeli policy (including settlement expansion, military actions, and treatment of Palestinians),
- Genocide
- Rape of prisoners
- Sponsoring Epstien and his sex trafficking of minors to political and economic elites
- Illegal and offensive wars of expansion
- Illegal possession of nukes
- Threats to use nukes on Palestine
- Dragging the US into unjust offensive wars of aggression multiple times now
- War crimes
- Crimes against humanity
The fact you refuse to use such language tells me you’re either a Zionist or insanely naive and live in fantasy land.
just as there are real security concerns and historical traumas on the Israeli side.
More whataboutisms. Nothing that’s happened to Israel justifies their actions as I’ve listed and countless more I haven’t.
Reducing everything to “genocide vs. pure victimhood” on either side doesn’t reflect the evidence and makes meaningful analysis impossible.
Nobody is doing that. I’m calling out the indisputably and very easily provable and observable facts about Israel’s crimes against humanity. It really is that black and white. Israel commits crimes against humanity, and those are ALWAYS unjustifiable.
You’re asserting certainty where the facts are actually contested, and that’s the core problem.
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Haavara ≠ “alliance with Nazis” The Haavara Agreement was a limited, controversial arrangement to get some Jews out of Nazi Germany with part of their assets. It wasn’t ideological alignment or a “Zionist–Nazi alliance.” Reducing it to that ignores the context: people trying to escape persecution with very few options.
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Refuge elsewhere wasn’t realistically available Before and after the war, large-scale refuge largely did not materialize. The Évian Conference is a clear example—many countries expressed sympathy but refused to take in significant numbers. After the war, millions were displaced and many survivors had no homes or communities left to return to.
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Nakba is real—but “genocide since founding” is not a settled legal fact The Nakba involved expulsions and flight on a massive scale—serious and well-documented. But calling Israel’s entire existence “genocide” is a legal claim that is actively disputed, including under the United Nations Genocide Convention. You can argue it—but you can’t present it as uncontested fact.
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“Ethnostate = genocide” is not how the term works Many states define themselves in ethnic or national terms. That alone doesn’t meet the legal threshold for genocide, which requires intent to destroy a group. Conflating these weakens your argument.
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Wars in the region aren’t one-sided The Arab–Israeli War of 1948 involved multiple states and actors. Israel has initiated some actions; so have others. Claiming everything is unilateral aggression isn’t supported by the historical record.
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Nazi comparison breaks under scrutiny Invoking Nazi Germany doesn’t clarify anything. It’s rhetorically strong but analytically weak, because the structures, scale, and intent are not equivalent.
There are serious, evidence-based criticisms of Israeli policy—settlements, civilian harm, occupation. Those stand on their own. But when everything is framed as “objectively genocide, no debate,” you’re not strengthening the case—you’re stepping outside what can actually be demonstrated and defended.
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Smart people did. Zionists have used genocidal language decades before the foundation of Israel.
And there’s a lot of Jews in the world that don’t subscribe to the idea that they “needed a place to go” aka form an ethnostate to try and concentrate the world’s Jewish population in a single place. That doesn’t create stable societies, even without going into expansionism and open war crimes against their neighbour states.
I would feel the same if the Zionists had picked my country as destination and I’d live on a strip of land while everything else would be Israel.
You can feel the same. And you have the right to speak out for that. Your and my feelings are not a suitable basis for international politics.
Are you deducing my point of view to a discussion of mere feelings?
In case my opinion is not worthy enough for you, check out Israel Zangwill, who was a zionist and a proponent of ”people without land, land without people” narrative, but after realising it was already inhabited turned against it.
I’m saying you havesa right to your opinion and there should be no law restricting your freedom to speak it.
Also saying that power does not care about those opinions and that changing something requires more than just our opinions being spoken out publicly.
International law do not prohibit merging and separating states. Because of Israel policies since it’s creation and building colonies over the decade a two state solution is impossible to do. I have yet seen anybody saying how to implement a two state, politicians only say it without conviction to protect Israel goals and maintaining the status quo
So you propose merging both States and creating a single governing body? What would that look like? UN coming in and both sides stop fighting? Honestly asking, sounds like an interesting idea.
So you propose merging both States and creating a single governing body?
Yes
What would that look like?
A one state with equal rights and a form of democracy only palestinians and israelis can decide
UN coming in and both sides stop fighting?
Not only the UN but Palestinians and Israelis themselves would form an anti terrorist force dealing with Palestinians and Israelis . Just like many countries with civil wars was able to reconciliate. If you think two population can never live together then even a two two state solution would not solve the issue since the two state would still be side by side. Modern warfare is about drones so you don’t even need ground invasion to attack your neighboring country. Of course it is not easy but it makes a lot more sense then a two state solution.
Sounds reasonable. I had only though to separating both and stop fighting and restoring original borders. But yes a democracy with both groups would make sense. How would you go about equal representation? They are not equal in numbers and simple direct democracy would create underrepresentation.
Estimates indicate around 7.5 million Palestinians (gaza, west bank and israel) and 8.5 million Jewish Israelis so both population are pretty close
Before or after the Israeli genocide?
It is known since South Africa situation and many politicians have suggested that.
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Hier geht keiner in den knast für sowas, sind ja keine dummen amis, die ihre bevölkerung wegsperren
