hey folks, we’ll be quick and to the point with this one:

we have made the decision to defederate from lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works. we recognize this is hugely inconvenient for a wide variety of reasons, but we think this is a decision we need to take immediately. the remainder of the post details our thoughts and decision-making on why this is necessary.

we have been concerned with how sustainable the explosion of new users on Lemmy is–particularly with federation in mind–basically since it began. i have already related how difficult dealing with the explosion has been just constrained to this instance for us four Admins, and increasingly we’re being confronted with external vectors we have to deal with that have further stressed our capabilities (elaborated on below).

an unfortunate reality we’ve also found is we just don’t have the tools or the time here to parse out all the good from all the bad. all we have is a nuke and some pretty rudimentary mod powers that don’t scale well. we have a list of improvements we’d like to see both on the moderation side of Lemmy and federation if at all possible–but we’re unanimous in the belief that we can’t wait on what we want to be developed here. separately, we want to do this now, while the band-aid can be ripped off with substantially less pain.

aside from/complementary to what’s mentioned above, our reason for defederating, by and large, boils down to:

  • these two instances’ open registration policy, which is extremely problematic for us given how federation works and how trivial it makes trolling, harassment, and other undesirable behavior;
  • the disproportionate number of moderator actions we take against users of these two instances, and the general amount of time we have to dedicate to bad actors on those two instances;
  • our need to preserve not only a moderated community but a vibe and general feeling this is actually a safe space for our users to participate in;
  • and the reality that fulfilling our ethos is simply not possible when we not only have to account for our own users but have to account for literally tens of thousands of new, completely unvetted users, some of whom explicitly see spaces like this as desirable to troll and disrupt and others of whom simply don’t care about what our instance stands for

as Gaywallet puts it, in our discussion of whether to do this:

There’s a lot of soft moderating that happens, where people step in to diffuse tense situations. But it’s not just that, there’s a vibe that comes along with it. Most people need a lot of trust and support to open up, and it’s really hard to trust and support who’s around you when there are bad actors. People shut themselves off in various ways when there’s more hostility around them. They’ll even shut themselves off when there’s fake nice behavior around. There’s a lot of nuance in modding a community like this and it’s not just where we take moderator actions- sometimes people need to step in to diffuse, to negotiate, to help people grow. This only works when everyone is on the same page about our ethos and right now we can’t even assess that for people who aren’t from our instance, so we’re walking a tightrope by trying to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. That isn’t sustainable forever and especially not in the face of massive growth on such a short timeframe.

Explicitly safe spaces in real life typically aren’t open to having strangers walk in off the street, even if they have a bouncer to throw problematic people out. A single negative interaction might require a lot of energy to undo.

and, to reiterate: we understand that a lot of people legitimately and fairly use these instances, and this is going to be painful while it’s in effect. but we hope you can understand why we’re doing this. our words, when we talk about building something better here, are not idle platitudes, and we are not out to build a space that grows at any cost. we want a better space, and we think this is necessary to do that right now. if you disagree we understand that, but we hope you can if nothing else come away with the understanding it was an informed decision.

this is also not a permanent judgement (or a moral one on the part of either community’s owner, i should add–we just have differing interests here and that’s fine). in the future as tools develop, cultures settle, attitudes and interest change, and the wave of newcomers settles down, we’ll reassess whether we feel capable of refederating with these communities.

thanks for using our site folks.

  • BobQuasit@beehaw.org
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    1 year ago

    How ironic! I had just subscribed to several communities on those instances this evening. Go figure. I guess I should reproduce my community subscriptions over on kbin. But wait, does this mean I can’t even SEE that I subscribed to those communities here?

    • alyaza [they/she]@beehaw.orgOPM
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      1 year ago

      But wait, does this mean I can’t even SEE that I subscribed to those communities here?

      yeah it sucks. the ideal here for us would be an intermediary step of some kind between total defederation and federation that does something like let Beehaw users go out, but doesn’t let lemmy.world users come in, but that’s far off if it’s even possible

      • BobQuasit@beehaw.org
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        1 year ago

        I’m hoping that kbin won’t pull the trigger. And that eventually this will be worked out. And also that eventually there will be some way to cross-connect accounts across the Fediverse, so I can (for example) share my community subscriptions across all my accounts…or whichever accounts I want, anyway.

        • Otome-chan@kbin.social
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          1 year ago

          I haven’t really checked lemmy but here on kbin we’re chill with both the redditors coming here and the stuff going on at lemmy I think. I don’t think there’s any risk of defederating in that regard. The concern is moreso seeing beehaw defederate from kbin lol. since the same thing happening to lemmy is happening to kbin.

          • alyaza [they/she]@beehaw.orgOPM
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            1 year ago

            The concern is moreso seeing beehaw defederate from kbin lol. since the same thing happening to lemmy is happening to kbin.

            we’ve had wayyy less trouble with kbin users so far–while things might change “kbin being problematic” isn’t even a thing that’s registering to me right now as an issue on our big, huge list of them

            • Otome-chan@kbin.social
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              1 year ago

              Perhaps I’m way off base but the vibe I get is that lemmy and kbin both are mostly populated by ex-redditors now, and kbin kinda feels more “reserved” and serious, while lemmy gives me that “lol anything goes reddit updoot” vibe. So from beehaw’s perspective I guess I understand why lemmy got the axe while kbin still hasn’t lol. I think kbin is also a lot smaller than lemmy and we just started federating, while lemmy you’ve probably been dealing with for days now.

              IMO, the lemmy x kbin relations seem fine. beehaw feels like they’re gonna be at my throat for not quite following the way they do things, hence why I said we might get the axe lol. Though maybe I got the wrong idea.

              Perhaps the issue isn’t so much the people, but just the content? to me, lemmy stuff doesn’t feel “problematic” so it’s hard to tell.

            • lixus98@kbin.social
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              1 year ago

              My questions are:
              Will you defederate from every instance that has an “open registration policy” if it floods beehaw’s feed with shitposts?
              What type of trolling are you seeing?
              What can you tell to mods of magazines/communities or admins of instances to look out for?

              • alyaza [they/she]@beehaw.orgOPM
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                1 year ago

                Will you defederate from every instance that has an “open registration policy” if it floods beehaw’s feed with shitposts?

                probably not? but assuming it somehow gets super bad–which i don’t think it will–we’d likely just switch to a whitelist system rather than the blacklist one we’re doing now and put it out of mind entirely. it’d suck but we also can live with very limited federation, it’s just not desirable and we would only want to do that as a last resort.

                What type of trolling are you seeing?

                everything up to and including posting child porn, so yeah.

                What can you tell to mods of magazines/communities or admins of instances to look out for?

                i think the biggest one is genuinely: if at all possible literally just don’t do open registration–use some gating, even if it’s not nearly as rigorous as ours. once bad actors are in, you’re going to have a hard time keeping an eye on them unless your instance is super tiny. if someone uses your instance as a harassment vector, you probably won’t know about it until your reports get blown up, and that can include reports on the aforementioned “literally illegal content that everyone else also has to deal with if they’re federated with you”.

                • Laconic@beehaw.org
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                  1 year ago

                  Server owners should be automatically notified if their users are getting banned off other servers so they can decide if they want to ban the account altogether.

        • lixus98@kbin.social
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          1 year ago

          Won’t pull it for now, that’s the good/bad side of federation, you might need to move to another instances.

          • BobQuasit@beehaw.org
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            1 year ago

            Thanks, I was able to recreate the list on my kbin account. Luckily it was actually usable tonight! For the last several days it had been impossibly laggy.

        • Aesthesiaphilia@kbin.social
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          1 year ago

          I don’t think kbin is having any issues with lemmy or other users messing up the vibe. kbin’s issues are purely technical (I think we still have cloudflare on).

        • The Cuuuuube@beehaw.org
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          1 year ago

          The list of subscriptions on your profile is still intact. You just have put them into the community search and click away

    • Kaldo@beehaw.org
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      1 year ago

      does this mean I can’t even SEE that I subscribed to those communities here?

      If you go to your profile page you can still see your subscriptions to defederated communities. I’m not sure if it’s going to stay and just hasn’t updated yet though