The western values Ukraine is defending are becoming more apparent by the day.

  • robinnn [he/him]@hexbear.net
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    7 months ago

    It literally is a fascist shithole. It’s littered with monuments to Nazis and Nazi collaborators, it’s armed forces are filled with Nazis, its leadership pays homage to Nazi collaborators, and the entire reason we’re in this situation is the US-backed coup in 2014 of which Nazis were the prime domestic force, and which led to the proliferation of Nazi gangs. Ukraine is not an independent nation.

    You talk about Russia violating sovereignty, what about the Ukrainian bombing of the Donbas (illegal cluster munitions used) and repeated violations of ceasefires? Russia didn’t invade Ukraine out of the blue, they had specific demands for the end of far-right nationalism, repression of Russian speakers, and NATO expansion (NATO itself being a Nazi collaborationist institution).

      • robinnn [he/him]@hexbear.net
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        7 months ago

        I don’t care if my comment is “normal,” but it is “rational and source-supported.” You’re not “calling out hexbear users,” you’re flaunting your ignorance. Points sourced one by one:

        It’s littered with monuments to Nazis and Nazi collaborators [*] [*]

        its armed forces are filled with Nazis [*] [*] [*]

        Tweet by the National Guard of Ukraine:

        its leadership pays homage to Nazi collaborators [*] [*] [*]

        and the entire reason we’re in this situation is the US-backed coup in 2014 of which Nazis were the prime domestic force [*] [*]

        and which led to the proliferation of Nazi gangs [*] [*]

        (illegal cluster munitions used) and repeated violations of ceasefires [*] [*]

        they had specific demands for the end of far-right nationalism, repression of Russian speakers, and NATO expansion [*] [*]

        NATO itself being a Nazi collaborationist institution [*] [*]

        • QuietCupcake [any, they/them]@hexbear.net
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          7 months ago

          I just want to thank you and @davel@lemmy.ml for the time and effort you put into these heavily-sourced and informative comments. Even if these lying, willfully ignorant shitlibs can’t appreciate it because it so clearly demonstrates how wrong they are and how little they know, some of us reading do appreciate it. I’ve learned a lot as a result and am better equipped to help others who might be willing to try to better understand the situation too.

          • davel [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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            7 months ago

            lying, willfully ignorant shitlibs

            Not everyone in the audience is that. I was a Burgerland lib once, too, exposed to the exact same propaganda for decades, so I know at least some can break out of it, if they’re curious & intellectually honest.

            After witnessing in real time how obviously fabricated the justification for the Iraq War was, and how seemingly credulously the media propagated it, I was no longer able to ignore the cracks in the propaganda. It still took me many, many years to peel away layer after layer. It’s a process. I’m just trying to help people get there faster than I did. The dissonance between what’s happening in Gaza & the West Bank right now and Western governments’ & corporate media’s coverage of it is even harder to ignore than the Iraqi WMD lies were twenty years ago, so this is an opportune moment for others.

            • QuietCupcake [any, they/them]@hexbear.net
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              7 months ago

              Not everyone in the audience is that.

              For sure, and I hope it didn’t look like I was implying that. It’s why I made a point to say that “some of us reading” appreciate your commentary. The “lying, willfully ignorant” thing was referring specifically to Unruffled and empireOfLove who you and robinnn were replying to respectively. The long process of questioning propaganda and the widening cracks that you describe is similar to my own experience, and I even commented recently about how the purpose of debating people in these online threads is rarely to change the mind of the person you’re arguing with, but rather to speak to the audience and plant the seeds that their doubt will hopefully grow from over time.

              • davel [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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                7 months ago

                Yup, you totally get it. I doubt I’ll see the fruits of my labor on a pseudonymous social media platform, and I’m okay with that.

        • PipedLinkBot@feddit.rocksB
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          7 months ago

          Here is an alternative Piped link(s):

          *

          Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.

          I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.

      • ShimmeringKoi [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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        7 months ago

        It’s hilarious that you people think the mods of a random instance are a front for the Hexbear NKVD or something, as opposed to the simple explanation that what you call “Russian propaganda” is what we call “things the west will admit six month later.”

        Six months from now you’ll be pretending you always knew Ukraine was a fascist shithole as you argue for the emergency conscription of Volksturm units to stop the Russian horde.

      • robinnn [he/him]@hexbear.net
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        7 months ago

        @empireOfLove2@lemmy.dbzer0.com Your comment has been up for over four hours, so 0 for 1 on predictions. I gave you citations for what I said in my comment, things you would have known if you would’ve looked into the conflict at all. You were so concerned with “discourse based in logic” and “source-supported comments,” so what happened?

        It’s extremely scummy to imply I’m a liar or making stuff up, then when I go and prove what I’ve said, you can’t even respond to apologize. If your comment was just a dishonest method of wasting my time, then you should be banned and have your comment removed.

        • BurgerPunk [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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          7 months ago

          I wish just once that one of these “market place of ideas-facts and logic-rational source-supported” lib debate perverts would actually engage with your posts. You always have tons of sources for everything and you cite them in posts like its an MLA style essay, and then these libs just ignore it.

          I know “rational discource-logic-source supported” are just affectations for these people, but they clearly don’t even care about trying to appear like its anything more than that