That Harvard link shows 34% percent of respondents issues considered it the most important…
But like, there’s a fundamental misunderstanding here, and I’m going to try and clear it up.
So generally speaking:
What will help the most is often not what most people consider to the most important issue.
Like, if everyone had it as their number 1, 2, or 3 but it wasn’t the most popular number 1?
It might still be the one thing that helps the most despite not being the most popular number 1 response.
Does that make sense?
Lots of people miss that when talking statistics. And since that first link has nothing to do with what I’m talking about, I’m assuming that’s what’s going on here.
It’s also not accounting for which repsondants were already voting for Biden when talking about most important single issue.
You think the pro trump respondents give a shit or will vote Biden for any reason?
Why is what they consider most important relevant to what we’re talking about?
You responded to the wrong person. I can reply here though, no worries.
You’re reading that 34% stat incorrectly. It is not saying that 34% of young people view that as the most important issue, they are saying that when asked about it when put head to head with another issue from that list, it only won 34% of the time. I believe that difference also mostly accounts for your 2nd/3rd choice dynamic as well, because it would have also been paired with those other topics and lost accordingly. Look at the other scores on that list. It’s clear that this conflict is not the primary driver of the election season right now.
Now, I’d love to see more stats, but between this and that recent Gallup poll, I’m going to start needing affirmative evidence in the other direction before I just start making leaps. For what it’s worth, I also find this conflict heinous. Israel is committing horrific war crimes. Global policy never outperforms domestic issues though. Caring about your own survival is human nature, so I kind of expect it.
Keep on advocating for Palestine and Gaza. I will be as well. Just don’t expect to be able to hold the election over their heads as leverage, because it’s becoming increasingly clear that leverage doesn’t exist.
You’re reading that 34% stat incorrectly. It is not saying that 34% of young people view that as the most important issue, they are saying that when asked about it when put head to head with another issue from that list, it only won 34% of the time.
No, I get that.
But if everyone’s second choice for dinner is pizza, that might be the choice that gets the most people on board even if it’s no one’s first pick.
The demographics Biden struggles with the most from the Dem voting base care about this.
And Biden barely beat trump last time, he can’t afford to keep funding a damn genocide.
The demographic Biden struggles most with isn’t young people and beside that point, every demographic is unique. Young people are impossible to please. Not individually, but as a demographic, they are inconsistent, fickle, wrathful, and fairly apathetic. I’m still in this demographic and it wouldn’t be my first stop for a reliable election winner. Then look at the Gallup poll I sent and think about this purely from a campaigning perspective. How does playing to the youth on Gaza win you anything? Frankly, it looks like the math is stacked against us on this.
I still think we should fight for this. I still think there should be protests, demonstrations, campaigning for more ethical candidates. I no longer think trying to win this through selling it as a carrot or stick for winning the election is going to work though. The electorate just cares way, way more about economics and Biden (from a campaigning perspective) would be much more well-suited to focusing on that.
The demographic Biden struggles most with isn’t young people
Then what demographic do you think it is?
I’m talking the standard demographics, unless you have some ultra specific one like “people who oppose funding genocide” I don’t know what you mean.
Young people are impossible to please.
Not for Obama.
And they turned out in 2016 when all they knew about Biden was he used to be Obam’s VP.
Just because they don’t like “moderate” neoliberals or republicans don’t mean they don’t like anyone.
Hell, when I was young I liked Bill Clinton just because he gave you g voters the time of day.
Standards are fucking low, it’s just Hillary and Biden didn’t try.
Historically the youth vote is very important, we can’t just give up on the whole demographic because they don’t like moderates. They’re the fucking future of the party, we need to actively go after them. I don’t expect Biden to bust out a sax solo live on MTV like Bill did.
Older white men, the core republican demographic. Inside of the general democratic camp, it would likely be older Latino males right now, but I would need to refresh my stats.
Not for Obama.
You’re joking, right? Ask any young person today what their thoughts on Obama are and you’re gonna hear “drone strikes” first thing. The electoral politics of 2024 are vastly different than the ones in 2012, especially with young people. The way social media delivers news and raw footage to people, especially the youth who know how to operate it best, has completely altered the relationship between foreign policy and PR at home. Obama would be skewered today, and I’m surprised that someone on the left is even holding him up as an example for Biden to follow in foreign policy maneuvers.
Historical the youth vote is very important, we can’t just give up on the whole demographic because they don’t like moderates. They’re the fucking future of the party, we need to actively go after them. I don’t expect Biden to bust out a sac solo live on MTV like Bill did.
Totally agree, but I do wish we could get the sax solo. (Sac solo is also a hilarious typo given the Bill Clinton proximity)
But he’s not trying to reach out at all.
Don’t agree, and here’s exhibit A of my comment above. He has forgiven as many student loans as seemingly possible with the current court structure and he has made climate change a high priority. Those are both targeted directly at the youth. He’s trying. Now, he might be failing, but why? Because a crisis has occurred that the youth feels incredibly strongly about, and they are one of the most uncompromising demographics. Most other demographics will remember those earlier wins and put the ones they lose in larger context. The youth is uncompromising, which is both their largest strength and weakness.
For what it’s worth, I’m not trying to argue with you on the broader topic of whether the younger demo is worth pursuing. Technology and political degradation is just going to consistently put the youth demo at odds with the raw math of campaigning, and that’s something I worry about. I don’t want any of what I’m saying to be true, but I worry that it is.
Older white men, the core republican demographic. Inside of the general democratic camp, it would likely be older Latino males right now, but I would need to refresh my stats.
Both those demographics have more “strong support” but almost no borderline support.
They’re minds are made up, including if they vote or not.
Meanwhile the youth are almost all borderline, they’re the ones you just called “fickle” and have some how taken that into “we shouldn’t reach out to them”…
Which just makes so little sense I stopped reading your comment. It’s not efficient for me to try and explain multiple things at once bud
I’m putting this time in to try and help you after all.
Not sure you’ve been “having to explain things” to me as much as just having a discussion with someone. I’m not really sure why you felt the need to get so dismissive and rude to someone who has clearly just tried to talk to you about something we both care about and approached in good faith. I really don’t need any “help” and I’m not sure what you even mean by that last statement. I hope you have a good rest of your day?
What I continue to assert is: if you ACTUALLY care about the Palestinian people, will trump be better for them? Because if you don’t vote for Biden you are effectively voting for trump because of how we handle elections.
And if Palestine is the only issue you care about… you are an incredibly privileged person who only cares about incredibly privileged people. But, again, do you honestly think trump would be better for Palestine?
If people threated to kill all your family if you didn’t kill one of them yourself, killing any of your family members doesn’t prove you ACTUALLY care about your family. Not everyone subscribes to outcome-based utilitarianism. If you do, cool for you. But there’s plenty of competing ethical frameworks people have and plenty of people don’t subscribe to any specific frameworks consistently, but still have rules that they believe shouldn’t be viable.
But, again, do you honestly think trump would be better for Palestine?
It could go either way, but probably would be worse in the short-term. Trump is such a baby that he could get mad over some slight offense (or unwillingness to participate in some form of corruption he demands of them) and decide he doesn’t want to play with Israel anymore and he’s already shown he has no problem withholding approved weapon spending (even if illegal to do so). Not saying its likely, but Biden, is pretty much certain continuation of funding genocide, and possibly an escalation of that involvement when he no longer has to worry about re-election.
Donald threatened Iran with nuclear weapons. Donald tried to ban Muslims from the country. Donald wants Israel to finish the job. The Repubs, who usually have oppositional defiant disorder about everything the Dems do, want to arm Israel.
You can be smug as you like about choosing not to touch the switch on this trolley problem. But please pull your head out of the sand about what will happen.
Not going to touch that example with a ten foot pole but:
If your ethics require you to take a pointless moral stand that accomplishes nothing for the people you claim to care about? Cool. Have fun.
This is not the trolley problem where you are deciding if one person or ten people die. This is a case where that same one person is going to die either way but the other ten can be saved.
If your ethics require you to take a pointless moral stand that accomplishes nothing for the people you claim to care about?
It’s only pointless if a few people do it…
Like literally every social change, including voting.
If enough people say “I can’t vote for Biden because of his support of Israel” then a rational candidate would appease their voters, at least till after the election.
If the candidate refuses to do that…
Whats the point in voting for someone who openly refuses to care what their voting base wants?
You’re mad at the wrong person here. Be mad at Biden for putting Israel over America, when according to your opinion, Israel wouldn’t have an issue continuing genocide with trump in office.
Think about Biden’s refusal to listen to voters and that for a minute.
Okay. What does not voting for Biden and letting trump win do for Palestine?
is the orange fuckface going to say “Oh wow. I only won because Biden handled Palestine so poorly. Let me go fight for the rights of ‘muslims’”?
OH! I know. The Democrats will decide they need to do better during the next election as we lose even more supreme court judges and the next election never happens (as per gop plan). But hey, maybe a few Palestinians will be alive in four to infinity years.
Biden just will never listen to the voters who put him in office?
Sounds like a candidate voters won’t turn out for, and when turnout is low, republicans win.
If we can’t get a better candidate, and get push our only option left…
How is it voters fault for disengaging?
Like, you’re arguing from the point that Biden listening to voters is impossible, while telling voter they need to put in effort to elect him again after he disappointed us from last time.
I just don’t see how someone could make the same arguments months away from the primary ending…
And deciding the best course of action is to not only keep Biden, but completely give up on dragging him to the left so he stands a chance
There are things Biden will listen on. There are things he won’t. The past 30 years or so have made it clear that Israel is not something he will listen on.
But I am not a single issue voter. There are a lot of issues I care about. And I agree with Biden on many of those.
By all means. Protest. But when it comes time to vote? Fucking vote.
I could MAYBE understand this if trump were out there talking about Palestinian human rights (I am sure we could find a hot Palestinian for him to assault…). But he isn’t. He is going to be just as bad, if not worse.
Primaries and every day but election day is about fighting for what you want. Election day is about minimizing harm. Welcome to being an adult. And if “voters” don’t understand that then yes, I do blame them (and us as a people).
“Single issue voter” is bullshit to fracture a unified base that’s rallied around one cause. Absolutely none of them literally only care about this and nothing else.
It’s just when lots of average people rally around one common issue, change can happen.
So the people in power try to fracture that unified base and find something they disagree with.
It’s all basic psychology. If you stop and think why that always comes up when there’s a large movement for one issue, it’s really obvious
If nobody cares about only one issue then why are people talking about pissing a vote away because:
Both candidates have basically the same stance on their number one issue
They are too lazy to look at any of their other issues
But yeah. I agree that nobody is actually a single issue voter. Which is why it is important to understand there is more than one issue at play here.
Change CAN happen if the two parties have a different stance. republicans got CLOBBERED because a shocking amount of their base actually care about abortion rights. Democrats have not done anywhere near what they fucking should on that front, but they are the pro human rights party… when it comes to that.
In this case? Both parties have the same stance. It isn’t like letting trump win will at all help the Palestinian people.
Gaza is a big issue, and Biden’s treatment of those that disagree with him isn’t that much different than trumps.
Biden has said the same bullshit about recent protests that Trump said about BLM.
People see that, and it makes them think there’s no chance that they or anyone else can change Biden’s mind about anything else.
And that’s a bad look when your goal is turning out dem voters.
You sound like you get that, but instead of being mad at Biden, you’re mad at everyone else.
That’s where we disagree.
I constantly heard “Biden isn’t a dictator” as an excuse for his inaction, but funding a genocide is an overt action he refuses to stop. And even went around Congress at one point.
He’s throwing away all his integrity, and people aren’t trusting him anymore.
While I completely agree that the US should pull all aid from Israel and hold them accountable to International Law, you forget that almost half of Congress and US citizens still support Israel’s actions. Granted, it’s likely due to media bias, but that doesn’t change the fact that the President represents them as well.
They were responding to me instead of you and just clicked the wrong comment I think, just to give them some grace. I would wait for a comment addressed to yours specifically because they may have a different framing.
That Harvard link shows 34% percent of respondents issues considered it the most important…
But like, there’s a fundamental misunderstanding here, and I’m going to try and clear it up.
So generally speaking:
What will help the most is often not what most people consider to the most important issue.
Like, if everyone had it as their number 1, 2, or 3 but it wasn’t the most popular number 1?
It might still be the one thing that helps the most despite not being the most popular number 1 response.
Does that make sense?
Lots of people miss that when talking statistics. And since that first link has nothing to do with what I’m talking about, I’m assuming that’s what’s going on here.
It’s also not accounting for which repsondants were already voting for Biden when talking about most important single issue.
You think the pro trump respondents give a shit or will vote Biden for any reason?
Why is what they consider most important relevant to what we’re talking about?
You responded to the wrong person. I can reply here though, no worries.
You’re reading that 34% stat incorrectly. It is not saying that 34% of young people view that as the most important issue, they are saying that when asked about it when put head to head with another issue from that list, it only won 34% of the time. I believe that difference also mostly accounts for your 2nd/3rd choice dynamic as well, because it would have also been paired with those other topics and lost accordingly. Look at the other scores on that list. It’s clear that this conflict is not the primary driver of the election season right now.
Now, I’d love to see more stats, but between this and that recent Gallup poll, I’m going to start needing affirmative evidence in the other direction before I just start making leaps. For what it’s worth, I also find this conflict heinous. Israel is committing horrific war crimes. Global policy never outperforms domestic issues though. Caring about your own survival is human nature, so I kind of expect it.
Keep on advocating for Palestine and Gaza. I will be as well. Just don’t expect to be able to hold the election over their heads as leverage, because it’s becoming increasingly clear that leverage doesn’t exist.
No, I get that.
But if everyone’s second choice for dinner is pizza, that might be the choice that gets the most people on board even if it’s no one’s first pick.
The demographics Biden struggles with the most from the Dem voting base care about this.
And Biden barely beat trump last time, he can’t afford to keep funding a damn genocide.
The demographic Biden struggles most with isn’t young people and beside that point, every demographic is unique. Young people are impossible to please. Not individually, but as a demographic, they are inconsistent, fickle, wrathful, and fairly apathetic. I’m still in this demographic and it wouldn’t be my first stop for a reliable election winner. Then look at the Gallup poll I sent and think about this purely from a campaigning perspective. How does playing to the youth on Gaza win you anything? Frankly, it looks like the math is stacked against us on this.
I still think we should fight for this. I still think there should be protests, demonstrations, campaigning for more ethical candidates. I no longer think trying to win this through selling it as a carrot or stick for winning the election is going to work though. The electorate just cares way, way more about economics and Biden (from a campaigning perspective) would be much more well-suited to focusing on that.
Then what demographic do you think it is?
I’m talking the standard demographics, unless you have some ultra specific one like “people who oppose funding genocide” I don’t know what you mean.
Not for Obama.
And they turned out in 2016 when all they knew about Biden was he used to be Obam’s VP.
Just because they don’t like “moderate” neoliberals or republicans don’t mean they don’t like anyone.
Hell, when I was young I liked Bill Clinton just because he gave you g voters the time of day.
Standards are fucking low, it’s just Hillary and Biden didn’t try.
Historically the youth vote is very important, we can’t just give up on the whole demographic because they don’t like moderates. They’re the fucking future of the party, we need to actively go after them. I don’t expect Biden to bust out a sax solo live on MTV like Bill did.
But he’s not trying to reach out at all.
Older white men, the core republican demographic. Inside of the general democratic camp, it would likely be older Latino males right now, but I would need to refresh my stats.
You’re joking, right? Ask any young person today what their thoughts on Obama are and you’re gonna hear “drone strikes” first thing. The electoral politics of 2024 are vastly different than the ones in 2012, especially with young people. The way social media delivers news and raw footage to people, especially the youth who know how to operate it best, has completely altered the relationship between foreign policy and PR at home. Obama would be skewered today, and I’m surprised that someone on the left is even holding him up as an example for Biden to follow in foreign policy maneuvers.
Totally agree, but I do wish we could get the sax solo. (Sac solo is also a hilarious typo given the Bill Clinton proximity)
Don’t agree, and here’s exhibit A of my comment above. He has forgiven as many student loans as seemingly possible with the current court structure and he has made climate change a high priority. Those are both targeted directly at the youth. He’s trying. Now, he might be failing, but why? Because a crisis has occurred that the youth feels incredibly strongly about, and they are one of the most uncompromising demographics. Most other demographics will remember those earlier wins and put the ones they lose in larger context. The youth is uncompromising, which is both their largest strength and weakness.
For what it’s worth, I’m not trying to argue with you on the broader topic of whether the younger demo is worth pursuing. Technology and political degradation is just going to consistently put the youth demo at odds with the raw math of campaigning, and that’s something I worry about. I don’t want any of what I’m saying to be true, but I worry that it is.
Not really.
https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2024/04/24/joe-bidens-approval-ratings/
Both those demographics have more “strong support” but almost no borderline support.
They’re minds are made up, including if they vote or not.
Meanwhile the youth are almost all borderline, they’re the ones you just called “fickle” and have some how taken that into “we shouldn’t reach out to them”…
Which just makes so little sense I stopped reading your comment. It’s not efficient for me to try and explain multiple things at once bud
I’m putting this time in to try and help you after all.
Not sure you’ve been “having to explain things” to me as much as just having a discussion with someone. I’m not really sure why you felt the need to get so dismissive and rude to someone who has clearly just tried to talk to you about something we both care about and approached in good faith. I really don’t need any “help” and I’m not sure what you even mean by that last statement. I hope you have a good rest of your day?
I did not claim it is not an important issue.
What I continue to assert is: if you ACTUALLY care about the Palestinian people, will trump be better for them? Because if you don’t vote for Biden you are effectively voting for trump because of how we handle elections.
And if Palestine is the only issue you care about… you are an incredibly privileged person who only cares about incredibly privileged people. But, again, do you honestly think trump would be better for Palestine?
If people threated to kill all your family if you didn’t kill one of them yourself, killing any of your family members doesn’t prove you ACTUALLY care about your family. Not everyone subscribes to outcome-based utilitarianism. If you do, cool for you. But there’s plenty of competing ethical frameworks people have and plenty of people don’t subscribe to any specific frameworks consistently, but still have rules that they believe shouldn’t be viable.
It could go either way, but probably would be worse in the short-term. Trump is such a baby that he could get mad over some slight offense (or unwillingness to participate in some form of corruption he demands of them) and decide he doesn’t want to play with Israel anymore and he’s already shown he has no problem withholding approved weapon spending (even if illegal to do so). Not saying its likely, but Biden, is pretty much certain continuation of funding genocide, and possibly an escalation of that involvement when he no longer has to worry about re-election.
Edit: fixed typo: made->mad
It would not go either way, buddy.
Donald threatened Iran with nuclear weapons. Donald tried to ban Muslims from the country. Donald wants Israel to finish the job. The Repubs, who usually have oppositional defiant disorder about everything the Dems do, want to arm Israel.
You can be smug as you like about choosing not to touch the switch on this trolley problem. But please pull your head out of the sand about what will happen.
Not going to touch that example with a ten foot pole but:
If your ethics require you to take a pointless moral stand that accomplishes nothing for the people you claim to care about? Cool. Have fun.
This is not the trolley problem where you are deciding if one person or ten people die. This is a case where that same one person is going to die either way but the other ten can be saved.
It’s only pointless if a few people do it…
Like literally every social change, including voting.
If enough people say “I can’t vote for Biden because of his support of Israel” then a rational candidate would appease their voters, at least till after the election.
If the candidate refuses to do that…
Whats the point in voting for someone who openly refuses to care what their voting base wants?
You’re mad at the wrong person here. Be mad at Biden for putting Israel over America, when according to your opinion, Israel wouldn’t have an issue continuing genocide with trump in office.
Think about Biden’s refusal to listen to voters and that for a minute.
He cares more about Israel than America.
Okay. What does not voting for Biden and letting trump win do for Palestine?
is the orange fuckface going to say “Oh wow. I only won because Biden handled Palestine so poorly. Let me go fight for the rights of ‘muslims’”?
OH! I know. The Democrats will decide they need to do better during the next election as we lose even more supreme court judges and the next election never happens (as per gop plan). But hey, maybe a few Palestinians will be alive in four to infinity years.
So you think regardless of amount of protest…
Biden just will never listen to the voters who put him in office?
Sounds like a candidate voters won’t turn out for, and when turnout is low, republicans win.
If we can’t get a better candidate, and get push our only option left…
How is it voters fault for disengaging?
Like, you’re arguing from the point that Biden listening to voters is impossible, while telling voter they need to put in effort to elect him again after he disappointed us from last time.
I just don’t see how someone could make the same arguments months away from the primary ending…
And deciding the best course of action is to not only keep Biden, but completely give up on dragging him to the left so he stands a chance
I just don’t get it
There are things Biden will listen on. There are things he won’t. The past 30 years or so have made it clear that Israel is not something he will listen on.
But I am not a single issue voter. There are a lot of issues I care about. And I agree with Biden on many of those.
By all means. Protest. But when it comes time to vote? Fucking vote.
I could MAYBE understand this if trump were out there talking about Palestinian human rights (I am sure we could find a hot Palestinian for him to assault…). But he isn’t. He is going to be just as bad, if not worse.
Primaries and every day but election day is about fighting for what you want. Election day is about minimizing harm. Welcome to being an adult. And if “voters” don’t understand that then yes, I do blame them (and us as a people).
Hardly anyone is…
“Single issue voter” is bullshit to fracture a unified base that’s rallied around one cause. Absolutely none of them literally only care about this and nothing else.
It’s just when lots of average people rally around one common issue, change can happen.
So the people in power try to fracture that unified base and find something they disagree with.
It’s all basic psychology. If you stop and think why that always comes up when there’s a large movement for one issue, it’s really obvious
If nobody cares about only one issue then why are people talking about pissing a vote away because:
But yeah. I agree that nobody is actually a single issue voter. Which is why it is important to understand there is more than one issue at play here.
Change CAN happen if the two parties have a different stance. republicans got CLOBBERED because a shocking amount of their base actually care about abortion rights. Democrats have not done anywhere near what they fucking should on that front, but they are the pro human rights party… when it comes to that.
In this case? Both parties have the same stance. It isn’t like letting trump win will at all help the Palestinian people.
Because:
Gaza is a big issue, and Biden’s treatment of those that disagree with him isn’t that much different than trumps.
Biden has said the same bullshit about recent protests that Trump said about BLM.
People see that, and it makes them think there’s no chance that they or anyone else can change Biden’s mind about anything else.
And that’s a bad look when your goal is turning out dem voters.
You sound like you get that, but instead of being mad at Biden, you’re mad at everyone else.
That’s where we disagree.
I constantly heard “Biden isn’t a dictator” as an excuse for his inaction, but funding a genocide is an overt action he refuses to stop. And even went around Congress at one point.
He’s throwing away all his integrity, and people aren’t trusting him anymore.
While I completely agree that the US should pull all aid from Israel and hold them accountable to International Law, you forget that almost half of Congress and US citizens still support Israel’s actions. Granted, it’s likely due to media bias, but that doesn’t change the fact that the President represents them as well.
https://zeteo.com/p/gaza-israel-genocide-poll-ceasefire-us-voters
You mean republicans?
They were responding to me instead of you and just clicked the wrong comment I think, just to give them some grace. I would wait for a comment addressed to yours specifically because they may have a different framing.
Yeah, just saw that