I am, admittedly, not very educated on the specifics of the Uyghur genocide, though I’ve tried to read the reports covered by the news. Ultimately I think there is much we don’t know about the situation, which I think to some extent is a legitimate point of critique for the Chinese government. Holodomor on the other hand is something that is debated even in academic circles:
While scholars are in consensus that the cause of the famine was man-made, whether the Holodomor constitutes a genocide remains in dispute.
The quote is from Wikipedia, but also found in various formats in other sources. Now, the actual important point: Do you think their alledged stances on these questions make them evil? Because people are more complex than that, and I think the comment I linked above should tell you everything you need to know why they are also on Lemmygrad and also tell you that they are indeed not a bad person.
I contemplated linking the map myself, but decided against it: Politics being as important as evidence for the decisions regarding officially recognizing something or not. However, since you brought it up, there are only 26 countries calling it a genocide (not a lot). All of them part of the western bloc during the cold war, but not even including everyone inside it (look at the nordic countries for instance). I am avid supporter of truth and of course against genocide with every fibre of my body, but finding out exactly what happened is sometimes difficult. Arguably as important and more difficult is the why, and I think there seldom are clear cut answers, though the questions are worth exploring. It is not evil to be wrong about these things unless it is intentional, which I do not think is the case for normal people.
It is not a question of belief, it is a question about facts and proof of which I am not in a position to rule on. I think the ideological war and propaganda of the times destroyed and distorted proof to an extent that it is not clear what happened exactly and why. We know it was a humanitarian tradgedy and a lot of people died, which could and should have been prevented. I also think some of those that knew what happened said something else than what was true because it was to their benefit.
Simple questions do not always fit into the framework of complex problems though. Also, what do you mean by “government-military”? In Soviet, to my knowledge, there was no paramilitary forces, so I don’t understand the term. To be clear here, I do not think there are any compelling reasons to not hold the regime accountable for the crisis and the handling of it.
In 1948, the United Nations Genocide Convention defined genocide as any of five “acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group.” These five acts were: killing members of the group, causing them serious bodily or mental harm, imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group, preventing births, and forcibly transferring children out of the group.
So, while there may be debate on whether the Holdomor technically meets the definition of a genocide, it still constitutes mass murder.
That is not necessarily true because it is not easy to establish intent. As far as I know there is not a clear idea on even the numbers, only estimates that have been quite far apart. I do not think there is adequate grounds to conclude that it was done with intent, nor to rule it out, hence why it is under debate.
Would you consider the frequent man-made famines in ireland in the 19th century, including the very famous great famine, an example of ‘genocide’ or mass murder?
Soviets took away all food from Ukrainian villages. They searched for hidden compartments, they probed the ground, so it wasn’t possible to hide food. They didn’t allow picking leftover grains from fields. What is the probability that the famine was unintentional? I doubt it was a big surprise that people without food starve and die.
Canada recognizes its multiple genocides against the First Nations. We have days dedicated to indigenous Canadians and activly trying to put indigenous voices first.
The same can’t be said about China, Russia or the US.
Uhm, I do not think you have a good understanding of what I am saying if you think I do not care deeply for the Ukrainian people both then and now. I understand that it is upsetting to debate something as horrible as what happened, but that is also why it is important to try to get the narrative right.
I think it is debatable to some degree and I am not an authority on the subject. I would rather listen to someone more knowledgeable than myself talk about it.
At some point you gotta live with em, you can try to tell a tankie or a Trumper the truth and they’ll nod along politly but still get drunk and spout nonsense. as long as they ain’t starting a militia or beating they wife might as well let the old dog bark
It’s irrelevant if they themselves are in their hearts are evil. People in powerful positions who leverage that power to diminish the historical importance or even existence of a genocide (or, for you, merely an intentional man-made famine directed specifically at a subset of a population deemed undesirable that resulted in millions of deaths) are acting as a force of evil.
Waving your hands and uttering the incantation of “we can’t know if they are evil” doesn’t disappear specific evil actions.
And, good actions don’t “cancel our” the bad ones either. Volunteering at a soup kitchen doesn’t give you a free pass to beat your wife.
I am, admittedly, not very educated on the specifics of the Uyghur genocide, though I’ve tried to read the reports covered by the news. Ultimately I think there is much we don’t know about the situation, which I think to some extent is a legitimate point of critique for the Chinese government. Holodomor on the other hand is something that is debated even in academic circles:
The quote is from Wikipedia, but also found in various formats in other sources. Now, the actual important point: Do you think their alledged stances on these questions make them evil? Because people are more complex than that, and I think the comment I linked above should tell you everything you need to know why they are also on Lemmygrad and also tell you that they are indeed not a bad person.
Ukraine and the other nations affected consider it a genocide.
I don’t think the developers are evil. However, I do think denying recognition of genocides and atrocities by authoritarian states is evil.
I contemplated linking the map myself, but decided against it: Politics being as important as evidence for the decisions regarding officially recognizing something or not. However, since you brought it up, there are only 26 countries calling it a genocide (not a lot). All of them part of the western bloc during the cold war, but not even including everyone inside it (look at the nordic countries for instance). I am avid supporter of truth and of course against genocide with every fibre of my body, but finding out exactly what happened is sometimes difficult. Arguably as important and more difficult is the why, and I think there seldom are clear cut answers, though the questions are worth exploring. It is not evil to be wrong about these things unless it is intentional, which I do not think is the case for normal people.
So do you or do not believe the Holodomor is a genocide?
It is not a question of belief, it is a question about facts and proof of which I am not in a position to rule on. I think the ideological war and propaganda of the times destroyed and distorted proof to an extent that it is not clear what happened exactly and why. We know it was a humanitarian tradgedy and a lot of people died, which could and should have been prevented. I also think some of those that knew what happened said something else than what was true because it was to their benefit.
It’s a pretty simple question. Was the Holodomor a government-military-led crisis?
Simple questions do not always fit into the framework of complex problems though. Also, what do you mean by “government-military”? In Soviet, to my knowledge, there was no paramilitary forces, so I don’t understand the term. To be clear here, I do not think there are any compelling reasons to not hold the regime accountable for the crisis and the handling of it.
Taken from Wikipedia:
So, while there may be debate on whether the Holdomor technically meets the definition of a genocide, it still constitutes mass murder.
That is not necessarily true because it is not easy to establish intent. As far as I know there is not a clear idea on even the numbers, only estimates that have been quite far apart. I do not think there is adequate grounds to conclude that it was done with intent, nor to rule it out, hence why it is under debate.
Yeah, but man made famines still aren’t okay, even if you don’t intent to destroy a people.
Would you consider the frequent man-made famines in ireland in the 19th century, including the very famous great famine, an example of ‘genocide’ or mass murder?
Yes, that is a genocide.
Yes? Especially for the genocide part.
Of course not and I think the most valuable we can learn from history is how to prevent something of the kind from happening again.
That’s why we should steer away from authoritarianism, which is what these communities want.
Soviets took away all food from Ukrainian villages. They searched for hidden compartments, they probed the ground, so it wasn’t possible to hide food. They didn’t allow picking leftover grains from fields. What is the probability that the famine was unintentional? I doubt it was a big surprise that people without food starve and die.
What about Canadian genocide of the indigenous? Surely you count that?
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It is, but so are some others that people seem to miss.
Canada recognizes its multiple genocides against the First Nations. We have days dedicated to indigenous Canadians and activly trying to put indigenous voices first.
The same can’t be said about China, Russia or the US.
Would someone who denied, say, the Holocaust not be a bad person because of their ‘alleged stances’?
You want to go home, and rethink your life.
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Ah, of course, I keep forgetting Ukrainians aren’t people to tankies.
Uhm, I do not think you have a good understanding of what I am saying if you think I do not care deeply for the Ukrainian people both then and now. I understand that it is upsetting to debate something as horrible as what happened, but that is also why it is important to try to get the narrative right.
What do you think the narrative is?
I think it is debatable to some degree and I am not an authority on the subject. I would rather listen to someone more knowledgeable than myself talk about it.
what is that degree?
It is not nazi apologia.
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Your point?
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Well, I wasn’t the one who compared it.
But regardless, genocide is bad, full-stop, end of discussion. Denying genocides happened is bad.
At some point you gotta live with em, you can try to tell a tankie or a Trumper the truth and they’ll nod along politly but still get drunk and spout nonsense. as long as they ain’t starting a militia or beating they wife might as well let the old dog bark
It’s irrelevant if they themselves are in their hearts are evil. People in powerful positions who leverage that power to diminish the historical importance or even existence of a genocide (or, for you, merely an intentional man-made famine directed specifically at a subset of a population deemed undesirable that resulted in millions of deaths) are acting as a force of evil.
Waving your hands and uttering the incantation of “we can’t know if they are evil” doesn’t disappear specific evil actions.
And, good actions don’t “cancel our” the bad ones either. Volunteering at a soup kitchen doesn’t give you a free pass to beat your wife.
Each action is evaluated within it’s own context.
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