cross-posted from: https://lemmy.world/post/18811470
The 92-page document will be voted on by delegates Monday evening.
Paywall removed https://archive.is/irAkp
i mean, thats not surprising. both us parties support Israel no matter what.
What on earth is the political advantage ?
An unsinkable aircraft carrier in the middle east to further the US’ imperial ambitions
I asked myself the same thing. Lots of layers to that. A foothold in the middle east is among them. A lot more surprising are the radical Christians that somehow like the radical Jews. Also selling guns, and a few more cultural things too.
I feel like there’s something bigger we’re missing. Both parties seem willing to gamble on losing the election over support for Israel, even now.
And I hate them for that… but funny enough I hate them less than the other idiots who want to dismantle my livelihood
What would it take for you to reject both?
Much like everyone else who shares that opinion, a viable third option that doesn’t throw the election to the right wing when you vote for it
Voting in elections is literally the least engagement you can possibly have with governance without it being none at all. It’s okay to “throw your vote away” if you are actually engaged. You make more of a difference in one day than any vote you cast makes.
So, nothing. You may not like the status quo, but you’ll continue to let genocide happen because you can’t vote it out, got it.
Plus, the Democrats are also right-wing, just not as right-wing.
What’s your solution then? Sit around sniffing your own farts and let the fascists win?
nobody has the right answers; but we all know what the wrong ones are because we keep doing them and here we are.
we all know what the wrong ones are
You mean letting Trump/Bush/etc win because Biden/Obama/Clinton didn’t give us everything we wanted fast enough? At least there’s progress under Democrats.
Democrats aren’t perfect by any means, but both sides aren’t the same either and in our current system one or the other is going to win.
You mean letting Trump/Bush/etc win because Biden/Obama/Clinton didn’t give us everything we wanted fast enough? At least there’s progress under Democrats.
Democrats are not giving us anything we wanted, there is no progress, just continued Capitalist decline.
didn’t give us everything we wanted fast enough
it’s more like didn’t give us anything we needed.
Also 0.8 worth of good presidents out of 46 is worse odds than a broken clock but, atleast with a broken clock, you’re guaranteed 2 good intervals on a regular bases.
and that’s why they’re not the right answers; it’s a systems that intentionally setup to give you shittiest choices and forces you to abide by them to make sure that you never get a good president; merely a very slightly less worse one while simultaneously teaching you to despise anyone who tries to point this out.
meanwhile other places have much better voting systems and our system has so americanized you that you don’t believe that those systems can also work here or, atleast, you’ve been conditioned to believe that we MUST select either a republican or a democrat.
They are. They absolutely are. One gives you all the social conservatism that the ruling class will permit you to have, and one gives you all the social progressiveness that the ruling class will permit you to have. They both work for the exact same interests. Whether or not the state allows gay marriage or abortion is totally irrelevant to the ruling class, has zero effect on their lives, and they give and take these things cynically not to advance a political cause but just to keep us scurrying back and forth, oscillating between panic and ersatz vindication, giving cover to allow them to shape the world 50 years from now into anything they please without any meaningful oversight or democratic input.
No, that seems to be what you want to do, the fascists are already winning and you still cling to the endless right-wing slide.
I advocate for organizing. Join an org, be that a union, a party, a Mutual Aid center, whatever. Get organized and start building dual power. If all you do is vote once every four years, then you are part of the reason why the Democrats continue to slide to the right as the GOP pushes farther to the right.
You can do all of that and still vote for the blue team.
We all need to organize and work to strengthen unions. We need to do that. So the choice is just do we want to do that under a blue team presidency or a red team/MAGA presidency
Blue team seems much more currently amenable to unionization. So that seems like it would be the superior conditions for us to organize under.
You can do all of that and still vote for the blue team.
Sure, you can vote for the less extreme fascists. The problem that we run into is that liberals just vote and then go to brunch for 2 years before voting again. Leftist movements died down under Biden and the Democrats moved to the right, no longer is Medicare for All being pushed for, as an example.
We all need to organize and work to strengthen unions. We need to do that. So the choice is just do we want to do that under a blue team presidency or a red team/MAGA presidency
Sure. Unions would be a good start, though not even close to sufficent. The Nordics are very highly unionized, yet still see sliding worker protections and Capitalist decay.
Blue team seems much more currently amenable to unionization. So that seems like it would be the superior conditions for us to organize under.
Are they really? Some members of Blue team, sure, but it’s important to recognize that unions come from force, not from government protections. The dems crack down on any worker movements just as quickly as the Reps.
Actual organization among the workers is far more important.
I don’t want genocide to happen. What the fuck makes you think I’m ok with what Israel is doing? You’ve got a terrorist organization and a right wing colonialist government using that terrorism as an excuse for ethnic cleansing
You may not prefer genocide to happen, but you aren’t doing anything to stop it, either.
I feel like folks like you practically get off to making bad faith arguments about how regular ass voters are "letting genocide happen" and imply that by not voting, you’re doing something effective to stop it.
I have to ask, hypothetically if the Palestinian death toll increased to 60,000 under a Harris presidency, and it increased to 150,000 under a Trump presidency, would you have any preference for one administration over the other if you could go back in time, or do you believe the 90,000+ death difference is meaningless? I’d genuinely like to know your answer to this question because to me it’s like telling someone there’s no difference between having one leg chopped off and both legs chopped off, and then hearing from some smug person in the back saying "how about we don’t chop any legs off?" like it’s the idea of the century that nobody has ever thought of before.
I feel like folks like you practically get off to making bad faith arguments about how regular ass voters are "letting genocide happen" and imply that by not voting, you’re doing something effective to stop it.
Try listening to what I am actually saying then, instead of imagining it and going with your feelings. I haven’t once said “not voting will stop genocide.” I said “voting will not stop genocide.”
I have to ask, hypothetically if the Palestinian death toll increased to 60,000 under a Harris presidency, and it increased to 150,000 under a Trump presidency, would you have any preference for one administration over the other if you could go back in time, or do you believe the 90,000+ death difference is meaningless? I’d genuinely like to know your answer to this question because to me it’s like telling someone there’s no difference between having one leg chopped off and both legs chopped off, and then hearing from some smug person in the back saying "how about we don’t chop any legs off?" like it’s the idea of the century that nobody has ever thought of before.
Neither option is acceptable and the genocidal US Empire needs to be torn down.
Secondly, please explain how there is a provable material difference in the ongoing genocide, beyond mere words. Congress is sending bombs and Israel is using them, and the DNC has affirmed their support for Israel.
Thirdly, the current death toll is already estimated to surpass 150,000 either way.
I feel like folks like you practically get off to making bad faith arguments
BAD FAITH ARGUMENTS LIKE SAYING YOU DON’T WANT A GENOCIDE TO HAPPEN AND THEN VALIDATING THE JUSTIFICATION FOR THAT GENOCIDE???
What the fuck makes you think I’m ok with what Israel is doing?
Your. Actions.
You’ve got a terrorist organization
E.G. Calling the Palestinians ‘terrorists’
You ACTIVELY support their genocide. Cynical piece of shit.
You won’t be able to stop the genocide regardless of who you vote for. And, from what I understand, you propose people vote for some third party that will never win, but leech votes from democrats so the republicans can win, right?
Yeah, that’s a really smart choice right there
You won’t be able to stop the genocide regardless of who you vote for. And, from what I understand, you propose people vote for some third party that will never win, but leech votes from democrats so the republicans can win, right?
Wrong on both counts, sorry. We can stop genocide, voting won’t do it though.
What do to think will?
Organizing and directly contesting. Build up dual power and risk upsetting the current system. The Black Panthers did it, John Brown did it, MLK Jr. did it.
6 downvotes, 0 replies. If you disagree with this person, why not explain why?
Haven’t downvoted anyone. Though also replied to none, as the reply about dropping both parties is sadly a pipe dream and didn’t need a reply, its essentially feeding whataboutism and just don’t care to engage.
Of course not. That’s way too fine to tightrope for them to walk for it to be summed up in a platform at the convention. I hate that it’s that way, but it’s a damned if you do damned if you don’t situation for them. Therefore it’s an entirely numbers-based strategy, no matter what the actual may believe.
Crazy. This was voted on by the delegates?
Are these the very same delegates who received their mandate as a result of the primary process in which Muslim voters overwhelmingly refused to submit even a single vote?
It’s almost as if you’re suggesting that refusing to participate in the democratic process means that your ideas will largely be discounted, as you bring literally nothing to the table in terms of political capital, but that just doesn’t seem quite right?
Look, I’m 100% for peace in Gaza & on earth more broadly, but you can’t refuse to return your RSVP and then act shocked that the host didn’t save you a place at the table.
Genocide is not a special interest group issue.
This is baby brain. Are you suggesting that the difference between a democratic party that supports the genocide and one that doesn’t is a LACK of pressure on them?
Sorry, ad hominem attacks are not something I want to engage on today. Me and my baby brain will enjoy existing in the real world, enjoy your limited world view.
Good. Fuck off, you genocidal piece of shit. You think not engaging with my interrogation of your position makes it go away to an outside reader instead of making it the last word?
Baby brain.
Neither does Republican, right?
Didn’t Trump say that Israel should just “finish the job”?
What job is there to finish? Biden already flattened Gaza.
2M people live in Gaza. The death toll according to the Gaza Health Ministry is nearly 41,000.
The point I’m trying to make is that given what Trump has said about Gaza and Palestine in general, what reason do we have to believe that 41,000 won’t turn into 410,000 under a Trump presidency?
The Gaza Health Ministry was bombed into being non-functional months ago. The ‘official’ number has been frozen so long that even the genociders have begun to cling to it because it’s such an obvious undercount.
The confirmed death toll is 41.000
The estimated death toll according to Lancet medial magazine is 180.000.
Combined with all the long term effects and sicknesses this Genocide will have on the Palestinians
I see no indication Trump will be any worse than the Democrats for Palestinians. Only more honest about his policy.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/27/trump-donors-israel-gaza-palestinian-protests
Donald Trump has told a group of wealthy donors that he will crush pro-Palestinian protests on university campuses if he is returned to the White House.
The former president and presumptive Republican nominee called the demonstrations against Israel’s war in Gaza part of a “radical revolution” and promised the predominantly Jewish donors that he would set the movement back 25 or 30 years if they helped him beat Joe Biden in November’s presidential election.
“If you get me re-elected, we’re going to set that movement back 25 or 30 years,” Trump replied, according to the Washington Post, which first reported the event.
Under a Trump administration, he’s openly said he would be prepared to use police and even the military to crush pro-Palestinian protests in America-- protests that, under the current administration, largely haven’t been shut down by police and military sent in as a result of the Biden administration. Biden/Harris are from from perfect but why are we going to pretend that there would be no difference between their administration largely doing nothing to shut down pro-Palestinian protesters vs Trump openly saying he’s crush the protests?
Can I ask you why you believe the overwhelming majority of Muslims in America have voted for Biden over Trump, and will vote Harris over Trump? Because damn near every Muslim American I know who is pro-Palestinian is voting for Harris come November despite knowing she’s far from perfect.
Words mean nothing. The Democrats have done far more damage to Palestine than I ever expected Trump to do.
You are still under the illusion that Democrats aren’t fully suporting the Genocide and annexation of the West Bank while Democrats are about to start WW3 to appease Netanyahu.
Trump promises big talk and under delivers. You seem to repeat his every word when it’s threats but when it’s promises you realize he always exaggerates. He will be the same as the Democrats.
Didn’t Trump just try to actively meddle and stop a ceasefire agreement last night between Netanyahu and the Dems? And we’re still pretend they’re the same?
Do folks like you ever wonder why most Muslims would never vote Trump?
I believe so, yes.
Nope, both want genocide. When do we start considering rejecting both entirely?
Once we get representational voting instead of first past the post. As long as we have first past the post, we vote for the not fascist, then we work at a local level.
So never, got it. Glad we can reconfirm that liberals will never actually push for change, just virtue signal and go to brunch until it’s time to vote again.
Or, vote locally, get involved with local politics and push for change. Get representative voting locally, and push it up from grass roots. But you’d rather Trump win.
Or, vote locally, get involved with local politics and push for change.
Local elections matter far more than federal elections, sure. “Push for change” is just vibes, do you mean asking reps politely? Historically that doesn’t really work at enacting major change.
Get representative voting locally, and push it up from grass roots.
Why do you think this would work? When has reformism worked?
But you’d rather Trump win.
Nope. Saying the Dems are merely the more moderate face of a genocidal empire doesn’t mean I want the GOP. Both parties form the evil empire.
I mean, either campaign for, run for, or vote for local officials that boost rank-choice-voting. Get your county to apply it. Then push for your state. Then we’ll work on the country. But until then, vote Democrat for president so that Trump doesn’t take away your vote, and we can keep working at it.
Sorry my blue/red local officials don’t want rank choice voting, but I have to vote for one of them according to you, so what do I do?
I mean, either campaign for, run for, or vote for local officials that boost rank-choice-voting.
Why do you think politicians would hurt their power and damage their donors?
Get your county to apply it. Then push for your state. Then we’ll work on the country.
How? Why would representatives change?
But until then, vote Democrat for president so that Trump doesn’t take away your vote, and we can keep working at it.
Seems I don’t have a vote either way, and it’s more important to build up dual power to eventually replace this wretched system.
They have that voting system in both Japan and Australia, doesn’t make a bit of difference, still capitalist dictatorships. Australia is also still carrying out their eviction of its indigenous peoples under that system, just like the US.
The Wiemar Republic had a parliamentary system
Then what do you suggest? What government or form of representation has had no atrocities?
Your question makes as much sense as asking what font has never had hate speech written in it.
Sorry, I inferred from your comment that you’re saying that it’s not worth trying to pursue ranked choice voting because Hitler was elected I’m a similar system. I thought this was idiotic, since all forms of government have led to horrible acts of violence in one country or another, so I asked what government you would support under that condition. If I misconstrued your point, then illuminate me. What does your comment mean?
I thought this was idiotic, since all forms of government have led to horrible acts of violence in one country or another
And yet your solution is to tweak voting slightly.
The issue isn’t what form the government takes, it’s who the ruling class is. No matter what reforms you apply to the system it’s just going to be the same people producing the same outcomes because of the same built in interests.
If Trump wins and implements a federal abortion ban that includes giving police the power to monitor any woman moving across state lines, I really wonder if people like this author will feel indifferent about not voting. I agree with many of the points she’s making but as much of an unpopular opinion it is among leftist spaces, I can’t say I’m a fan of those who choose not to vote in the next election.
What I really don’t understand about the author is that she’s seemingly making no distinction between the Republican plan for Israel/Palestine and the Democrats’ plan for Israel/Palestine. Dems are so far from perfect but good lord, are we really going to sit here and pretend that under a Trump presidency he wouldn’t just give Israel free reign to kill as many civilians as they want? And is this the part of the discussion where someone claims that Biden has already done that, and that it couldn’t get any worse?
Why would a leftist who is registered democrat give a shit about Trump? She isn’t trying to pressure trump to do anything, she isn’t voting for trump, she never supported trump and Trump has nothing to do with her goals. Further why have you spent any time whatsoever thinking about trump? It’s been 4 years, 4 years of the party you nominally support enabling genocide and you can’t even do the barest minimum to stop them from supporting that genocide?
