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Unrelated to China, but why is the Vietnam War listed as Indecisive or unclear outcome?
As far as I know it’s because both sides had pretty banal low-level and straightforward stated goals that were all “met” so there wasn’t a clear “winner” and a “loser” in those strategic goals. It was really more of a 3 week skirmish than a full war. Vietnam obviously wanted to force China out of their country, and China said they wanted to bat Vietnam on the nose and force them to pull out of and not occupy Cambodia, or Laos or Thailand.
Which China left meaning Vietnamese succeeded in their strategic goals, and the Vietnamese diverted major resources and pulled out of Cambodia and didn’t occupy Thailand and Laos meaning the Chinese succeeded. There weren’t really any major strategic goals that were stated by either side that showed blatant failure; like China never said they intended to fully occupy Hanoi and create a Chinese puppet state and failed. Vietnam as far as I know never said they intended to continue occupying Cambodia or occupy Thailand and then failed to. So in a way they both got what they wanted and it was a status quo antebellum situation. Thus indecisive in the context of if it weren’t ‘indecisive’ there would have been a winner or loser.
Thailand and Laos were under multi-factional civil wars whose royal governments were also US proxies; so the Vietnamese were also involved there (and involved with their local communist parties), prompting Sino-Soviet-split-related concerns with China since even though both China and USSR provided support to Vietnamese communists; the USSR became the dominant supporter and ally of Vietnam and continued to be. China also had an alliance with Cambodia dating before Khmer Rouge even; which was in part because Cambodia wanted assurance against the larger Vietnam and Thailand. The split in the Chinese Cultural Revolution era between the ultra-lefts and others had half of the CPC supporting the Prince and half of it supporting the Khmer Rouge against the prince. North Vietnam and Khmer Rouge provided support for each other for a while too. The politics were a mess. No idea what other involvements China had with Thailand and Laos other than Sino-Soviet fears.
People overstate the significance of Chinese casualties as meaning a loss when that’s not how war works. Strategic objectives are all that matter. The losses (if you average the wildly disproportionate claims from all sides; impossible to actually know when you look at it) were more even than something like The Winter War between USSR-Finland; and though that war had the Soviets suffer disproportionate losses, it was still a complete strategic victory for the Soviets; they got everything they were after which had refused by Finland in previous requested land-swaps, namely gaining the Karelia buffer region.
Immediately thought of Vietnam and Cambodia. OP really doesn’t know much history… [Edit: I just checked because I wasn’t sure, but China didn’t invade Cambodia as far as I can tell. I knew they invaded Vietnam in support of Cambodia, but I didn’t know whether some of the Sino-Vietnamese battles also took place in Cambodia, and apparently, no.)]
And OP’s comparison pic is nonsense for more reasons than that. The time ranges are wildly different, it’s counting starting from 1776 for the US, but it starts counting from 1949 for the PRC
China is occupying Vietnam and Cambodia?
Image says “Has invaded since PRC was founded”, not “is occupying right now”, don’t try to change the terms of the debate when contradicted. You still could’ve made a point that China invaded much fewer countries than the US, but at least try to have an accurate map or the accurate words.
Portraying minor skirmishes as invasions is the height of dishonesty. Ironic that you would do that while accusing me of being inaccurate.
I don’t find it dishonest or inaccurate to say that crossing a border with troops and tanks and occupying cities constitutes an invasion, but I guess it’s a matter of semantics. As is calling a conflict with dozens of thousands of casualties a “minor skirmish”.
List of wars being involved in is not a list of countries being invaded and occupied, nice try though.
honestly the map is too unserious to merit discussion
Except that it’s not. China’s development has been overwhelmingly peaceful, and China has played a positive role around the globe helping many other nations develop and improve their standard of living. On the other hand, the US has been at war throughout all of its miserable existence, and is responsible for carrying out countless crimes against humanity around the globe. It remains the greatest threat to human existence today.
See? You could have said that instead of posting falsified maps
the map is far more accurate than it is not though
the map is far more accurate than it is not though
Come on, Yog, we can hold ourselves to a higher standard than this. It’d be so easy to just color in Vietnam and then you’d be set, but by posting it in its current form you are actively lying.
I think there’s a difference between invasion/occupation and a minor border skirmish. Like yeah it could’ve been more accurate, but it does get the point across. 🤷
Eh, I think you can illustrate your point a bit better, comrade. The map goes from good agitprop to bad when it is counterable by liberals and leftists alike. I agree with your general point on this post, so I don’t think the point itself is bad, but it could be better elaborated on with an actual map that shows what it says it does. Just my opinion.
The top one is taken from a website called vividmaps where it’s countries the USA has had some sort of conflict with
List of wars being involved in is not a list of countries being invaded and occupied, nice try though.
The bottom map is just a white map.
Garbage meme 1/5
That’s fair, I like the concept of the map hence why I shared it, but I agree it would be better if it was more accurate. Perhaps worth making a better one.
One 😂😂😂 bit is the way it even uses a purer shade of white for China.
played a positive role around the globe helping many other nations develop and improve their standard of living
african debt traps intensify
I love how you trolls just keep regurgitating the same few tropes that even mainstream western media has debunked
- Chinese Investment In Africa Has Had ‘Significant And Persistently Positive’ Long-Term Effects Despite Controversy
- study on Chinese investments
- no debt trap
- debt trap does not hold much water
- China and Africa: Ethiopia case study debunks investment myths
- https://www.lse.ac.uk/iga/assets/documents/research-and-publications/FDI-in-Ethiopia-Crescenzi-Limodio.pdf
- https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/gild/2021/01/26/how-chinese-investment-shape-new-growth-patterns-in-africa/
- https://www.asiafinancial.com/china-debt-trap-claims-in-africa-stem-from-us-rivalry-study
- https://www.sabcnews.com/sabcnews/chinas-infrastructure-investment-helps-fast-track-development-in-africa-expert/
- https://geopoliticaleconomy.com/2022/08/20/china-forgives-debt-africa/
- https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2023/11/broadband-business-formation-and-economic-growth-in-the-global-south-assessing-chinas-impact/
our civilized and altruistic IMF lending vs their horrifying Chinese extortion schemes!!! 😱
I love how you trolls just keep regurgitating the same few tropes
my guy your waking life consists of reposting the same 5 talking points
i’d maybe take a moment of quiet reflection
Chinese Investment In Africa Has Had ‘Significant And Persistently Positive’ Long-Term Effects Despite Controversy
“The results show that Chinese foreign direct investment (FDI) sets in motion a process of transformation in the local economy that damages local competitors but – at the same time – benefits local suppliers to the new Chinese firms as well as their local clients.”
this is another way of saying that local businesses are destroyed, save from the ones that become functionally chinese subsidiaries
if the west did this you’d be having a meltdown
study on Chinese investments
you know that when a bank restructures a loan for you, it’s not out of the goodness of their hearts, right?
and that’s when they do restructure a loan for you, rather than just letting you default and having your economy explode like happened with sri lanka
no debt trap
guys they didn’t SEIZE a port they merely forced a country to lease it for 99 years at a bargain bin price
China and Africa: Ethiopia case study debunks investment myths
ethiopia literally had to default on their debt after this article was published
see above
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/gild/2021/01/26/how-chinese-investment-shape-new-growth-patterns-in-africa/
this is the same as the first link
https://www.asiafinancial.com/china-debt-trap-claims-in-africa-stem-from-us-rivalry-study
this is about the port again
this just says “development good” without defining what that is
the same metric would justify european colonialism of africa
https://geopoliticaleconomy.com/2022/08/20/china-forgives-debt-africa/
except for all the cases where they don’t and countries have to default, i guess
this link isn’t relevant
ethiopia literally had to default on their debt after this article was published
The debt they owed to the IMF 😂 https://www.reuters.com/world/africa/imf-ethiopia-reach-staff-level-agreement-first-review-loan-program-2024-09-27/
and that’s when they do restructure a loan for you, rather than just letting you default and having your economy explode like happened with sri lanka
Oh you mean where actual western debt trap was happening?
this link isn’t relevant
No it wouldn’t, but I’m not expecting any sort of intellectual integrity from you here.
this link isn’t relevant
sure buddy
Put the Kool-Aid down. Stop uncritically accepting propaganda from neocolonial states and their corporate media.
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Yeah, apart from other areas of china (if you can call those “invasions and occupations”) there’s only been one time they’ve invaded another country and that was Vietnam in 1979.
korea
Helping kick out US troops from a sovereign state that has asked for their help isn’t an invasion though
probably not a door you want to open unless you want the top map to suddenly get a lot less red
also, even if you accept that line of thinking, it still became an invasion when they crossed the 38th parallel
Tibet
Yog, where is P̶a̶d̶m̶e̶ Tibet?
Is it safe? Is it alright?
Tibet was liberated in 1951 thank goodness
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what’s more lib than cheering for slavery https://www.historicly.net/p/tibet-china-and-the-violent-reaction
You can be opposed to the theocratic bullshit that is the Dalai Lama and still acknowledge that China invaded & occupied Tibet.
Especially if you count the Allies winning WWII as the invasion & occupation of Germany in the upper map.
Liberating the people of Tibet from a feudal theocracy, from poverty and illiteracy. The horror they must be suffering.
I don’t think many Tibetans would welcome a CIA-backed Dalai “suck my tongue” Lama coup government.
Liberating Germany from Nazi rule, the horror!
If you count the Allied victory as the invasion & occupation of Germany, you must count the liberation of Tibet as an invasion and occupation.
Stark comparison but China regularly has skirmishes with India on India’s side of the border.
There was also the time they invaded Vietnam.
During the first and second Afghan civil-war there were also border skirmishes
and with the USSR
@yogthos
well… if the map also shows where the US has acted clandestinely for its own imperialist purposes, the map gets a little redder.skill issue
Not invading other countries is a choice, not a skill.
Big time, despite all the colonization the burger empire still can’t keep up with China. Hence all the crying about over production.
No, I meant China’s lack of colonies is a skill issue. They’ve tried often enough, but usually got BTFO by a small set of islands in front of their coast, or a few hundred Europeans.
They’ve tried often enough
[Citations needed]
Nah, China hasn’t tied making colonies. It has developed using its own means, and now it has surpassed the US.
Ah. Xinjiang and Tibet should defintely be painted in red. Also Vietnam without a doubt. Korea is a matter of definition.
🤣
Also Hong Kong, not really an invasion, but definitely not a welcomed rule of power after the UK left.
@yogthos Your map is wrong. This comment from the linked thread probably sums it up best…
"loaExMachina
@sh.itjust.worksImage says “Has invaded since PRC was founded”, not “is occupying right now”, don’t try to change the terms of the debate when contradicted. You still could’ve made a point that China invaded much fewer countries than the US, but at least try to have an accurate map or the accurate words."
pretty disingenuous to call border skirmishes invasions if you ask me
@yogthos If you send your military across another countries’ border without that countries’ permission that’s generally referred to as an invasion, but don’t let facts get in the way of your CCP shilling.
Invasion is an act where a country enters another country by force with the objective of taking control of it. But don’t let your lack of English cprehension stop you from making a clown of yourself.
https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/invasion
@yogthos CCP military went into Indian territory without permission, not once but on several occasions, many of which resulted in violence. On each occasion China military wasn’t crossing the border to have a picnic, the goal is the gradual encroachment of territory, a tactic used by CCP with 17 countries that CCP think they own. https://theweek.com/news/world-news/china/955728/all-countries-china-territory-disputes
I’m curious now, can the CCP stlll pay you to shill for them with the Chinese economy so bad now, or do you shill for free to show patriotism?
I have no idea what CCP is.
@yogthos You know what the PRC is but no idea what the CCP is…
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA you’re not a very good shill are you, funny, but not very good.I know what CPC is, I have no idea what CCP is. Maybe it’s just that people who huff too much gas can’t spell Communist Party of China correctly? 🤷
the uk got invaded?
More like became a vassal of the empire after WW2 along with the rest of Europe.
comedy hot take understanding of geopolitcs aside, you said they invaded and occupied?
when did they invade and occupy the uk?
So North Korea and Vietnam do count for China, right?
No, they don’t as China doesn’t have military occupation in either, and doesn’t control their politics. But nobody expects libs to have any sort of intellectual integrity.
China doesn’t occupy every nook and cranny of the oceans and waterways on the planet. Whoever made this chart is a fuckin moron. Humans cannot realistically engage in long term oceanic invasion and occupation.
Look, can’t we agree that neither country gives a shit about the working class? Nation states are so 20th century. Why not try something new and try dissolving the state and self organizing into communes that best reflect our beliefs and values?
That said… What do the different shades of colors mean in the top image? Only half fucked over?
No we can’t because that’s demonstrably false. The state in China clearly represents the interests of the majority.
90% of families in the country own their home giving China one of the highest home ownership rates in the world. What’s more is that 80% of these homes are owned outright, without mortgages or any other leans. https://www.forbes.com/sites/wadeshepard/2016/03/30/how-people-in-china-afford-their-outrageously-expensive-homes
The real (inflation-adjusted) incomes of the poorest half of the Chinese population increased by more than four hundred percent from 1978 to 2015, while real incomes of the poorest half of the US population actually declined during the same time period. https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w23119/w23119.pdf
From 1978 to 2000, the number of people in China living on under $1/day fell by 300 million, reversing a global trend of rising poverty that had lasted half a century (i.e. if China were excluded, the world’s total poverty population would have risen) https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/China’s-Economic-Growth-and-Poverty-Reduction-Angang-Linlin/c883fc7496aa1b920b05dc2546b880f54b9c77a4
From 2010 to 2019 (the most recent period for which uninterrupted data is available), the income of the poorest 20% in China increased even as a share of total income. https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SI.DST.FRST.20?end=2019&locations=CN&start=2008
By the end of 2020, extreme poverty, defined as living on under a threshold of around $2 per day, had been eliminated in China. According to the World Bank, the Chinese government had spent $700 billion on poverty alleviation since 2014. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/31/world/asia/china-poverty-xi-jinping.html
People in China also enjoy high social mobility https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/11/18/world/asia/china-social-mobility.html
And finally, they have record household savings https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/stock-market-today-dow-jones-bank-earnings-01-12-2024/card/chinese-household-savings-hit-another-record-high-xqyky00IsIe357rtJb4j
Why not try something new and try dissolving the state and self organizing into communes that best reflect our beliefs and values?
The real question is why do anarchists have nothing to show aside from rhetoric for over a century. I’ll take a functional worker state that actually improves lives of the people instead of living under dictatorship of capital while dreaming about unachievable utopia.
Why not try something new and try dissolving the state and self organizing into communes that best reflect our beliefs and values?
Go ahead. If that works, I’d be delighted. Seems that all it ever ends up producing is a 15 person sex commune. When self-organizing commune lift a billion people from poverty and outmaneuver the US empire, I’ll become an anarchist.
Because i want rail roads crossing the world and massive buildings and a global shipping network and all the things that are only possible because of states. If u want to return to monkee feel free but the rest of us would like to have a civilization. Fundamentally i disagree with ur stupid ideals even IF we put aside the reality of defending anything that working people build from capital.
Personally I think a gradual transition towards statelessness is necessary, because people are currently used to living in a state and are generally quite skeptical of sudden rapid change, even if it would be purely positive. Even if the capitalists were eliminated tomorrow and their propaganda networks shut down immediately, the general populace would still be infected by their brainworms for at least a generation.
Look, can’t we agree that neither country gives a shit about the working class?
I have almost the exact opposite take on China.
Shit government, surveil people, torture people, no internet-freedom.
Their huge massive redeeming feature os that they REALLY give a shit about their working class.
@yogthos Technically, they have also invaded themselves.
Brazil should be painted. The US is known to be sparked the 1964 military coup and, if I remember correctly, the Alcântara Launch Center is used by US. There are also military exercises involving US Army using Brazilian military bases (such as Formosa).
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Ah yes, China helping Korea liberate itself from the US invasion is occupation. I’m starting to think I want whatever drugs Fleur is having.
They literally just did the same thing the US did but for the other side.
This is literally the dumbest thing that’s been said on this site in a long time.
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the map I posted did a great job exposing people like you 😂
Oh no now everyone will know I’m media literate
