Exactly, heavy taxation on the ultra wealthy and wealth caps are incredibly popular topics in liberal circles. I swear some people have never actually talked to a liberal and just attack some strawman they’ve lumped in together with conservatives.
I’m leftist and anti-capitalist, but I also recognize that most liberals are people who want the same things leftists do, but simply haven’t thought deeply enough about what the true root causes of society’s issues are. It’s an issue of tactics rather than a fundamental disconnect in core principles and values. Ultimately they want a more equitable, less stratified society where society helps and supports the disenfranchised. The same thing leftists want. They just don’t understand that capitalism has to go in order to achieve it.
Liberals, unlike conservatives, are actually generally quite reasonable people since they aren’t motivated by hatred. As leftists, we should be doing everything we can to educate them and bring them into the fold, rather than tearing them down.
I think you are being overly generous here. The number of middle class or wealthy liberals who want meaningful wealth distribution is vanishingly small. I’ll leave this comment because I agree with your closing sentiment, but please be mindful of rule 3. This is a space for lefty memes, not involved political discussion, or liberal apologia.
You’re complaining about making the political axis reductive and yet your entire comment completely ignores the existence of actual French leftists during the revolution. The Liberals in France might have helped to begin the revolution, and they were certainly the ones that help to end the revolution, but they weren’t the only members of the revolution. They helped to murder and destroy the French left During the Revolution and in the years that came after. Surely you aren’t arguing that Babeuf was a liberal? But his mere existence shows the great flaw in your theory. The French liberals were to the right of him and a number of other French revolutionaries. So how could they be the extreme radicals you claim they were?
You can only say that Liberals are the left if you’re looking at it solely from the perspective of extreme conservatives and regressives. Yes if that’s the only way you view history is through their eyes then everything can look leftist. That does not mean it is though. The Liberals of the American and French Revolution were those that that wished for the culmination and empowerment the burgiose. The ascendancy of the capitalist class. Nobody who works for this ascendancy can be called leftist. You’re basically making the Overton window argument. That because we are at a time of extreme right wing thought that centrism would have been only moderately right wing. We know that’s not true. Just look at the Shakers in England during their Civil War. A people most would classify as a Proto communist movement.
The concept of Centrism that modern Centrists jerk themselves to sleep over is the idea of “hearing both sides” of an argument and establishing a compromise position.
I’m curious who you think Robespierre was compromising with.
What you are saying fits the american “liberal” label. What you are describing I would call social democrat, not a liberal. People calling themselves liberal in europe are, examples from sweden: compares public insight into publicly funded privatly owned companies to soviet, are for privatization of welfare institutions, collaborates with the far right, calls rightwing newspapers communist, and are against free speech at universities.
To be fair though, the meme is probably targeting socdems anyway so I guess fair enough.
It’s a pretty broad label that covers basically everyone that believes in some form of democracy and capitalism. The combination of Americentrism and declining public education that created the “liberal is when Democrats” is… Annoying.
Liberals absolutely arent centrists, Social Democrats are centrist. Liberals are right wing, fundamentally you cannot be a leftist while supporting a “free” capitalist economy and minimal government (thats what Liberalism is).
Because it considers private property a core foundation it literally can’t be left wing. Leftists (whether socialists or anarchists) believe private (not personal) property should be abolished.
I accidently responded to the wrong message last time. In the vast majority of countries Liberal is right wing, America is an outlier because of the red scare. Fundamentally Liberalism isnt left wing, its just the most left wing option Americans have so they they see it as left wing. Fundamentally if you believe in private property, capitalism, few social programs, funding genocide, and imperialism you are a right winger.
The diversity of liberalism can be gleaned from the numerous qualifiers that liberal thinkers and movements have attached to the term “liberalism”, including classical, egalitarian, economic, social, the welfare state, ethical, humanist, deontological, perfectionist, democratic, and institutional, to name a few. Despite these variations, liberal thought does exhibit a few definite and fundamental conceptions.
And they all still enshrine the sanctity of private property which was my point when referencing the definition. All the variations of liberalism still boil down to a capitalist ideology.
Again, this meme is suggesting that liberals are against any form of wealth redistribution. Capitalism and wealth redistribution are not mutually exclusive. Social programs, funded through taxation, is a form of wealth redistribution commonly found in capitalist nations.
Didn’t say you couldn’t attempt some wealth redistribution under capitalism but it’s not really related to what the discussion was. The left/right dichotomy for political economics isn’t based on whether there’s an attempt at wealth redistribution it’s whether the economic system is capitalism.
Also at the end of the day you can try to gain concessions from the capitalist class through social programs but there’s a hard limit on what will be allowed and as soon as the capitalist class is able to they will push for austerity for the working class. It’s been seen numerous times in history.
What are the tenants of the neoliberalism economic philosophy?
Edit: not saying the philosophy definition is the only def, just pointing out there are multiple common usages so when someone says ‘liberal’ without defining the term it’s ambiguous.
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Exactly, heavy taxation on the ultra wealthy and wealth caps are incredibly popular topics in liberal circles. I swear some people have never actually talked to a liberal and just attack some strawman they’ve lumped in together with conservatives.
I’m leftist and anti-capitalist, but I also recognize that most liberals are people who want the same things leftists do, but simply haven’t thought deeply enough about what the true root causes of society’s issues are. It’s an issue of tactics rather than a fundamental disconnect in core principles and values. Ultimately they want a more equitable, less stratified society where society helps and supports the disenfranchised. The same thing leftists want. They just don’t understand that capitalism has to go in order to achieve it.
Liberals, unlike conservatives, are actually generally quite reasonable people since they aren’t motivated by hatred. As leftists, we should be doing everything we can to educate them and bring them into the fold, rather than tearing them down.
Well said. Education over isolation is the only way we’ll move forward.
I think you are being overly generous here. The number of middle class or wealthy liberals who want meaningful wealth distribution is vanishingly small. I’ll leave this comment because I agree with your closing sentiment, but please be mindful of rule 3. This is a space for lefty memes, not involved political discussion, or liberal apologia.
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What’s most important is that you get to feel smugly superior.
The irony of you saying this is earth-shattering.
k
Thanks for thinking about me!
No need to thank me. I’ll always will be dedicating all my thoughts and prayers to the shitlibs.
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never heard of the “thoughts and prayers” trope eh? I guess I expected too much of you.
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You pretend the comment I was responding to was trying to discuss in good faith?
Very mature
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Who said I am in a mood to discuss rn? Y’all never never seen a meme, I swear…
“Discuss in good faith”
Reads comments…
Hey look it’s the guy in the meme!!!
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Liberals are Centrist they’ve always been centrists for 400 years.
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You’re complaining about making the political axis reductive and yet your entire comment completely ignores the existence of actual French leftists during the revolution. The Liberals in France might have helped to begin the revolution, and they were certainly the ones that help to end the revolution, but they weren’t the only members of the revolution. They helped to murder and destroy the French left During the Revolution and in the years that came after. Surely you aren’t arguing that Babeuf was a liberal? But his mere existence shows the great flaw in your theory. The French liberals were to the right of him and a number of other French revolutionaries. So how could they be the extreme radicals you claim they were?
You can only say that Liberals are the left if you’re looking at it solely from the perspective of extreme conservatives and regressives. Yes if that’s the only way you view history is through their eyes then everything can look leftist. That does not mean it is though. The Liberals of the American and French Revolution were those that that wished for the culmination and empowerment the burgiose. The ascendancy of the capitalist class. Nobody who works for this ascendancy can be called leftist. You’re basically making the Overton window argument. That because we are at a time of extreme right wing thought that centrism would have been only moderately right wing. We know that’s not true. Just look at the Shakers in England during their Civil War. A people most would classify as a Proto communist movement.
The concept of Centrism that modern Centrists jerk themselves to sleep over is the idea of “hearing both sides” of an argument and establishing a compromise position.
I’m curious who you think Robespierre was compromising with.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/political-spectrum
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_spectrum
What you are saying fits the american “liberal” label. What you are describing I would call social democrat, not a liberal. People calling themselves liberal in europe are, examples from sweden: compares public insight into publicly funded privatly owned companies to soviet, are for privatization of welfare institutions, collaborates with the far right, calls rightwing newspapers communist, and are against free speech at universities.
To be fair though, the meme is probably targeting socdems anyway so I guess fair enough.
Aren’t SocDems a type of liberal?
Yes. And so are non ancap libertarians.
It’s a pretty broad label that covers basically everyone that believes in some form of democracy and capitalism. The combination of Americentrism and declining public education that created the “liberal is when Democrats” is… Annoying.
Liberals absolutely arent centrists, Social Democrats are centrist. Liberals are right wing, fundamentally you cannot be a leftist while supporting a “free” capitalist economy and minimal government (thats what Liberalism is).
Nah dude a liberal can be right wing and another lib can be left. You can be a liberal soc dem if you want
There is a set definition for what liberalism is.
Because it considers private property a core foundation it literally can’t be left wing. Leftists (whether socialists or anarchists) believe private (not personal) property should be abolished.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_spectrum
You don’t define what’s left and what is right. Most people agree that liberal can mean left, central, right or right wing
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I accidently responded to the wrong message last time. In the vast majority of countries Liberal is right wing, America is an outlier because of the red scare. Fundamentally Liberalism isnt left wing, its just the most left wing option Americans have so they they see it as left wing. Fundamentally if you believe in private property, capitalism, few social programs, funding genocide, and imperialism you are a right winger.
(Ex: the German political spectrum)
From your linked article:
Yup. A single set definition alright.🙄
And they all still enshrine the sanctity of private property which was my point when referencing the definition. All the variations of liberalism still boil down to a capitalist ideology.
Again, this meme is suggesting that liberals are against any form of wealth redistribution. Capitalism and wealth redistribution are not mutually exclusive. Social programs, funded through taxation, is a form of wealth redistribution commonly found in capitalist nations.
Didn’t say you couldn’t attempt some wealth redistribution under capitalism but it’s not really related to what the discussion was. The left/right dichotomy for political economics isn’t based on whether there’s an attempt at wealth redistribution it’s whether the economic system is capitalism.
Also at the end of the day you can try to gain concessions from the capitalist class through social programs but there’s a hard limit on what will be allowed and as soon as the capitalist class is able to they will push for austerity for the working class. It’s been seen numerous times in history.
A liberal’s opinion on wealth redistribution exactly what the meme references, as well as the comment thread you’re responding to.
What are the tenants of the neoliberalism economic philosophy?
Edit: not saying the philosophy definition is the only def, just pointing out there are multiple common usages so when someone says ‘liberal’ without defining the term it’s ambiguous.
Classic liberalism =/= neoliberalism
The meme doesn’t say neoliberals. It says liberals.