I was debating the merits of incorporating some anarchist ideology, since my professor has been introducing some things to us.

Anarchism, different types, has its appeal.

but I keep running into multiple positions that i can’t for the life of me understand. This one in particular. How do you have solidarity when you can’t support states or hierarchies?

Also the existence of states, and what it takes to abolish them is of great interest to me. Because it seems to be as simple as uh, implementing direct democracy? Or some form of democratic functions in all society. So all institutions and borders can exist, but if you’re democratic you’re good? Do all situations really have to involve everyone?

so is literally a few elections and renaming institutions enough to replace the nation state? Seems incredibly easy then, i dont know what the fuss is about. (Although i think democratic armies are stupid why should that be a thing.)

Also my professor has an annoying tendency to hate on former socialism whenever its brought up. Also the sort of stereotypical obsession with rojava (which explicitly enshrines the right of private property, but otherwise i support the fight of the kurdish population for liberation) and the Zapitistas (who denounce western anarchism and explicitly identify as a sort of their own ideological deviation from marxism. Libertarian socialism in reality. Not hating on the Zapitistas of course, they’re cool as fuck and i support their fight against discrimination of ethnic minorities and natives. Other anarchists have a liking of Makhnovshchina, which gets a lot of undeserved hate in marxist circles but was more a warlord state than anarchist. But i’d be fine with that because it was a rough time and they were doing what they had to, but explicit denial of this and upholding it is very strange to me.

But these are… states??? Why is it Marxist states that get flak?

wait its probably the purges… yeah i’d be mad about that too if it was me…

Anarchists i think get lots of undue hate towards them as well, with many criticisms brushing them aside being equally applicable to marxism.

Also i dont want to see any marxists give a joking or sectarian answer, or ill report them. Im interested in learning the responses of anarchists, and the best ones i can find are usually here. I can get kind of defensive, i dont like being wrong, but i do genuinely want to learn.

  • infuziSporg [e/em/eir]@hexbear.net
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    29 days ago

    There is no such thing as a pure anarchist. It’d be hard to even define what that is.

    You’ve got the super queer anarcho-nihilists, the hippie anarchists, the avant-garde autonomists who call themselves communists but lean more heavily towards anarchism than Marxism, the standard An-Coms that would claim the legacy of anarchism since the 19th century, the anarchist punks, and even some primitivists. And that’s just in America. All of these rather resemble spheres instead of formal ideological camps. There will certainly be a variety of stances from sphere to sphere on unified political programs, whether you should vote at all, the validity of Marxist class analysis, whether any kind of large structured formal organization is worth participating in, the acceptable levels of authority, proclivity for insurrection, whether to use direct democracy or consensus or pure self-direction or something else, and more.

    Some movements have general assemblies and movement congresses in which they make decisions thoroughly but excruciatingly slowly. The Zapatistas are used to this and call it “the pace of good governance”.

    Defining the state is something you can split a lot of hairs over, but I think it can broadly be seen as a formal supra-human entity that exclusively dominates a territory and exercises rights of control not afforded to individuals or smaller groups. If it peacefully overlaps with another entity, or if it doesn’t exercise any will that is not a direct wish of the people, or if it has no formal subordination of people and groups to itself but they participate voluntarily, you may call that governance without Government.

    Many anarchists have no problem with things being managed by officials at a local level, with safeguards against people monopolizing the seats of power. From there you would have some sort of loose federation of localities, regulating trade and standards and any collective defensive force.

    Solidarity without states or hierarchies is pretty easy, you just keep everything horizontal, and you have each person in charge of a part instead of 1 person everyone answers directly to. Sometimes you have someone who’s an avowed anarchist yet still ends up sort of being in charge of all the things, drifting into a de facto leader. It sucks when this happens, because it can be a cycle of people deferring to that one person rather than trusting their own agency or pursuing their own development, and also because if anything changes for that person it ripples through all the groups they’re a part of.

    If there’s anything from anarchism you can inform your own politics by, let it be this. Leadership is an umbrella concept, it is a synthetic idea that most cultures did not have until the advent of capitalism, or contact with a bourgeois polity. It is a replacement for the idea of nobility that describes an essence that gives someone the right to rule. In fact, the bourgeois class had to invent the idea of leaders and leadership, in order to displace the ideology supporting feudalism. It is not the sine qua non of effective coordination. In many indigenous cultures, captains of war and spiritual masters have separate roles from the management of the rest of society. The latter is typically done by a group or council of elders, much like how the “alpha wolf” is a total myth, as the senior wolves in a pack are deferred to for their familial relations to other wolves. You don’t need to give up the idea of a vanguard party that executes class struggle to embrace leaderlessness. In fact, I think it would make your vanguard party stronger. With separate and rigorous domains of influence, you allow more people to participate and pursue distinction, minimize conflict over who wants to be in charge, prevent most stratification from emerging groups of people who have certain levels of power and people who don’t, and reduce any potential impact of infiltration, blackmail, or assassination.

    • Very interesting, especially the leaderless part. a helmsman is good, but really only for the founder phase, like lenin and stalin. After that you’ll have people coming in and pulling it every which way. Thank you very much for your in depth answer!

      • SadArtemis [she/her]@hexbear.net
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        28 days ago

        After that you’ll have people coming in and pulling it every which way

        IMO while this is natural and inevitable, this is also why the “vanguard party” (or something functioning as such) as championed by Lenin is necessary- the party, state, commune, whatever form it is that the revolution takes, has to maintain its revolutionary proletarian character (IMO).

        Maintaining the revolution’s integrity- whether it is in some hypothetical commune, or in the state/party systems of AES or even many states born out of anti-imperialist struggle- is key to preventing the revolution’s slow undoing and eventual destruction (as seen in the Soviet dissolution). Discussions of what compromises, by the collective proletariat, should be made (like Dengism, which seeing its successes I’d probably say I most align with- yet which also undeniably introduced its own issues which I believe the CPC is largely working towards resolving) are possible, but retaining the proletarian character, the proletarian dictatorship, is infinitely important (once again IMO).

        IMO the “helmsman” great man history image as is mainstream doesn’t paint a good picture of most communist states’ development (perhaps of all genuine communist states’ development). Stalin, Lenin, and Mao may loom large, but none of them were the “dictatorial” or sole commanding forces of the revolutionary parties and then states they ran- though they undeniably had immense influence as individuals all the same. A helmsman can be good (and is probably necessary for the founding phase as you put it) and a figurehead IMO is probably inevitable, but IMO to what extent there are helmsmen, they only become irrelevant when and if the party can maintain, or build upon or pragmatically modify their guidance and character (though I’d argue all aforementioned helmsmen’s greatest successes were in promoting and proving their own views in the broader party structure and society).

        In regards to the “anarchist” bit where this comes in- well admittedly obviously I have a bias (as I don’t consider myself an anarchist and haven’t exactly bothered to look overly much into their ideology). Yet IMO I’d say- to maintain this specific revolutionary character and prevent its undermining- on some level, the structures of the state and/or party discipline would have to be established, and if I’m not wrong (not a scholar and wouldn’t know lol) I’ve heard that in what (extremely temporary) successful anarchist uprisings did exist so far they did essentially create just that (even while not necessarily calling it as such)

      • SadArtemis [she/her]@hexbear.net
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        28 days ago

        Figured rather than edit should add on-

        Basically- I think it’s a good thing for people to pull it every which way, or to try to, and argue their case, anyways. IMO naturally (or ideally anyways) this would lead to the most pragmatic approach while building socialist, progressive society. It just should ideally be within a broader framework designed to internally- for lack of a better word, “self-police” itself for the sake of preserving the revolution in a manner akin to how capitalism by its nature preserves the interests of capital accumulation and maintenance (while avoiding the pitfalls of ultraism, which for capital I’d call neoliberalism/neoconservative hegemonism)

      • infuziSporg [e/em/eir]@hexbear.net
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        28 days ago

        a helmsman is good, but really only for the founder phase, like lenin and stalin.

        Do you mean a chief strategist to conceptualize things, or a chief taskmaster to get people to move, or a chief parliamentarian to make sure the discussions reach an agreement? Must all of these be the same person?