The Democrats need to fuck off and let us speak for ourselves.
Sorry, they had their chance. Running culture wars with Nazis doesn’t progress the government, it’s just wasted time.
We can’t spend another four years pretending lgbtq+ messages trickled in through Disney and mainstream media have any effect on society’s opinions towards the left, or society at all, and in some cases, it’s all the right thinks of us.
We need to go back to being the party of unions, workers, fair wages, and the planet, with social justice tagged on for the ride, rather than the main event. The common American doesn’t speak trans, or minority, or fairness.
They speak $. The vote speaks for it. There is no better man to appeal to beyond the bottom line. We know humanity’s depths at this point. Work with it.
The anti-war movement in this country has been decimated, but the majority of people in this country do not want war. The national electorate has consistently voted for who they believe to be the least hawkish candidate.
The Democrats need to drop out and let an actually serious party take over
My investments would take a major hit if that did happen. So we’re not going to be doing that.
This is Lemmy. You can’t be that subtle.
lol, why would they do that?
They’ve got 4 years of donations thanks to Trump. Democrats never learn and will always pour money into an issue instead of actually solving it.
Correct, Biden just cozying up to Trump when he should be using emergency powers to arrest this madman who under the 14th Amendment isn’t even eligible to be President was absolutely sickening to me.
Right so… “let’s do the thing the fascist threatens to do because we’re right and it’s justified” is not the same thing as the fascist saying “we’ll do it because we’re right and it’s justified”.
Easy to justify the means when you believe in the ends… but of course every one thinks they are right and that everyone else will come to believe they are right, thusly conveniently avoiding any bad consequences.
Do you have any idea what would have happened if Biden just arrested Trump?
We would get the inevitable civil war even sooner
Do you have any idea what would have happened if Biden just arrested Trump?
If he would’ve done it early in his term, I suspect Trump would not have been elected president again. But instead he pushed the idea through some absurdly bureaucratic system that allowed Trump to run the clock out on everything.
If he would’ve done it early in his term, I suspect Trump would not have been elected president again.
We would have had a civil war or at least an attempted one. Then the next time a MAGA-esque Republican came along, which would probably be in 2028 or 32 they’d feel free to completely take the gloves off. We would have validated and enabled that behavior by doing it ourselves.
I do find it fascinating that you seem to be attributing this all to Biden. We have a relatively weak executive branch and separation of powers through different branches of government for a reason. Overturning that is the worst possible idea.
Then the next time a MAGA-esque Republican came along, which would probably be in 2028 or 32 they’d feel free to completely take the gloves off.
And you think letting treason pass with no consequences isn’t also sending a message?
The Republicans have no shame and aren’t waiting for the Democrats to strike first. Take away one rationalization and they will just manufacture another.
“And you think letting treason pass with no consequences isn’t also sending a message?”
Like it or not the rule of law and due process still applies, even to people we detest. It wasn’t “letting treason pass”, it was not being able to get the consequences to stick because of (a) a conservative Supreme Court ruling that gave presidents immunity; (b) a Trump-appointed judge slow-walking and then essentially ditching Smith’s case. Notably, hundreds of Jan 6 participants went to prison for their actions. Hardly a pass there.
Simply locking Trump up because -we- felt he was treasonous is the exact same thing as Trump and the fascists locking us up because they feel we are treasonous. Critically, it invalidates our claim to being in the right and it validates the action as justified and correct, thus undermining any attempt to ensure fascists are correctly labeled as ‘the bad guys’. I know to us that’s obvious, but sadly there are millions of Americans who are unclear on that point and need to be educated. You can’t educate someone by proving them right in their claims.
I am NOT saying that overriding the rule of law isn’t sometimes necessary. After Hitler came to power and over-turned the rule of law then obviously he had to be stopped and the means didn’t really matter. I prefer to believe that will not be necessary with Trump and we can empty the burning dumpster in 2028.
Breaking the rules isn’t fascism though. Fascism is fascism.
What do you think is a more ethical choice:
a) uphold the law, knowing it will let fascist come to power and kill thousands
a) break the law and stop him
Breaking the rules isn’t fascism though. Fascism is fascism.
It is precisely fascism. It’s ignoring the rule of law to achieve authoritarian aims. Why is it ok when you agree with the outcome and not ok when you don’t? But way more importantly, once you do it you cannot go back. If Biden did this and Trump ended up winning - make no mistake Biden has no authority to remove candidates from ballots - then Trump would feel completely justified in jailing his opponents.
What do you think is a more ethical choice
A. Because the premise of your choice is flawed. You do not know that breaking the law would stop him. You do not know -with certainty- that not breaking the law would result in that outcome. But we do know that being authoritarian to achieve aims we believe in is no better than people we disagree with doing the exact same. What would happen if Biden was successful in stopping Trump but then, because we wouldn’t ever keep unfettered presidential power… right? RIGHT? We’re the “good” guys… what would happen if MAGA Republicans won in 2028? I doubt we’d ever have another election again.
What makes a society good is being inclusive of everyone regardless of how they were born and working through cooperation to achieve goals and look out for each other. A society where people are intentionally neglected for another group’s economic gain is not a desirable society unless you’re a fascist. However, ideologies are not people and ideologies that promote an unequal society do not need to be tolerated, and people who pose a danger due to their actions to the people around them in a society that would otherwise be more fair do not need to be tolerated either.
Neither authoritarianism nor ignoring the rule of law are inherently bad. In reality, law isn’t words written on a piece of paper - it’s people with political motives that hold authority over law enforcement and the criminal justice system. The words themselves hold no authority, and they depend on the people to actually follow them, so the people can collectively choose to ignore them or change their meaning and now suddenly the law is different even though the words didn’t change one bit. The political motives the people who decide the law have generally favor a society that supports corruption and inequality, so there is nothing inherently wrong with breaking the law, especially if it makes everyone’s lives better.
Fascism is a specific type of authoritarianism that basically does the opposite to a society of what it should look like. Utilizing authority to make society better for basically everyone is not fascism. Utilizing authority to dehumanize a subset of people for the economic gain of a “superior race” is fascism.
I appreciate your thoughtful comment.
Neither authoritarianism nor ignoring the rule of law are inherently bad.
Look, I understand the point you are trying to make. Roughly that being authoritarian to achieve “good” ends is ok. The wrinkle that you overlook is that there are many wildly varying viewpoints about what is “good”. Being “inclusive of everyone” for example, is something that most Christo-fascists would abhor, their bible notwithstanding. Neglecting people for economic gain is practically a religion in itself for some people.
What all that boils down to is this: if one group ignores the rule of law because they are “right” then the other group feels fully justified in doing the same. And because we have a democracy and that democracy doesn’t enshrine progressive ideas into law, we can’t ensure groups with ideas we find abhorrent don’t use our precedent to impose those ideas on us.
Fascism is a specific type of authoritarianism that basically does the opposite to a society of what it should look like.
Not according to fascists. Do you see the problem? You just said that fascist authoritarianism is ok - from their perspective.
Utilizing authority to make society better for basically everyone is not fascism
Hitler firmly believed he was making “society better for basically everyone”. The Christian Nationalists and White Supremacists firmly believe their getting into power via a Trump administration will make “society better for basically everyone”.
I know many of us would love to believe that there is an objective truth and that our beliefs about a good, just and equitable society are universal and objectively correct at a human level. I believe in the “arc of the moral universe” that is so but there is no way that I can use the mechanisms of oppression that I detest to enforce that belief on others and have that enforcement be successful.
Have you ever tried to negotiate or educate someone when you are angry? Like say your neighbor keeps playing loud music and you really want them to stop. If you come out yelling at them and are visibly angry you -might- get them to stop, but you have made an enemy. If you approach them in an open-minded way that acknowledges their rights and autonomy you have a much better chance of a constructive dialog that gets you what you want.
It’s hard to think like this right now, I fully understand. We are all angry and frustrated as hell. Maybe it helps to be reminded that we still have a lot of power, especially at the local level… and that we are playing the long game.
What would happen if Biden was successful in stopping Trump but then, because we wouldn’t ever keep unfettered presidential power… right? RIGHT? We’re the “good” guys… what would happen if MAGA Republicans won in 2028? I doubt we’d ever have another election again.
From the standpoint of democracy that wouldn’t be ideal, but why is republicans having 2(4) years of unchecked power better? They don’t give a shit and gonna do a lot more damage to it.
Why is it ok when you agree with the outcome and not ok when you don’t?
Because the side coming to power wants to gleefully deport, repress and kill people, and the other one much less so. The good guys are “good” not because they respect the rules, but because they believe in humane values, in ending their fists when the others’ faces begins and all that good stuff. The fascists are bad not because they break the law, but because they believe and want to do fascism.
If the rules are unjust then breaking them is an ethical imperative. And Trump not being in jail is frankly a crime against lady liberty.
If the rules are unjust then breaking them is an ethical imperative.
This thinking is precisely why Jan 6 happened and will happen again if we validate that thinking by doing it ourselves.
The fascists are bad not because they break the law, but because they believe and want to do fascism.
This is true. But if you want fascists to do fascism more and with more righteous enthusiasm, then adopt their tactics. Grievance is part of the ethos there. Many MAGAts truly believe that the Biden administration was “going after” them and that we liberals are an existential threat that justified any means at their disposal. This is the problem with violence and authoritarian approaches in general - the more you do it the more the other side feels the must do it.
And Trump not being in jail is frankly a crime against lady liberty.
Yes… and it’s an insult, unjust and highlights the double standard for the wealthy and politically powerful. But strictly speaking it’s not a crime.
The good guys are “good” not because they respect the rules, but because they believe in humane values
You know what is a humane value? Respecting other people even when you vehemently disagree with them. Acknowledging that they are human beings and have a right to their thoughts and ideas even when you feel they are wrong. Because if you do not you are tacitly agreeing to their thinking that YOU are wrong. You are giving that perspective credence and the harder you push back the more you are allowing them to justify suppression of YOUR ideas.
I happen to think MAGA zealots are absolutely misguided and ignorant. But I can see how they got that way - racism, bigotry and misogyny borne of christo-fascist white supremacy. And what that means ultimately is that the people themselves are not the enemy, the ideas are. You can shape ideas through education and by being open and accepting of people. You can’t do it by rejecting people.
This thinking is precisely why Jan 6 happened and will happen again if we validate that thinking by doing it ourselves.
What do you mean validate they don’t give a crap. The alt right isn’t going to become less relevant because we refuse to use their tactics against them. The choice is do things by the book, keep our precious moral high ground and most likely lose or get dirty and have a fighting chance.
You know what is a humane value? Respecting other people even when you vehemently disagree with them. Acknowledging that they are human beings and have a right to their thoughts and ideas even when you feel they are wrong. Because if you do not you are tacitly agreeing to their thinking that YOU are wrong. You are giving that perspective credence and the harder you push back the more you are allowing them to justify suppression of YOUR ideas…
What’s humane in respecting someone calling for genocide? Sure we should try to change their minds, I am not agitating for their liquidation, but for clawing out the political and cultural power back from their sweaty hands to try to turn away from the f-ing iceberg.
Metaphorical iceberg, because all the real ones will melt after trump dissolves the EPA.
What do you mean validate they don’t give a crap. The alt right isn’t going to become less relevant because we refuse to use their tactics against them. The choice is do things by the book, keep our precious moral high ground and most likely lose or get dirty and have a fighting chance.
Actually they do give a crap. It often doesn’t look that way because many of the most visible and vocal MAGA cult “leaders” want to push their members to enable their authoritarianism. But that’s the top-level power grab. If we do that ourselves we further enable it and allow those leaders to say “Look! See! They are doing it so we HAVE to do it!”
Talk to MAGA cult members and you will find that if you strip away all the hyperbolic rhetoric and bring it down to the nuts and bolts level they pretty much want the same things we want - fair wages, affordable cost of living, decent affordable healthcare, bodily autonomy, etc etc. A recent Wapo article highlighted this - that if you present Harris’ policies to Trump supporters absent the party they came from, those policies are very popular.
Why would I respect someone who’s grand philosophy is scapegoating and crowning a king?
You don’t have to respect their ideas or behavior, but if you do not respect them as people how can you expect them to respect you? When a child steals a toy from another child, do you beat them senseless or do you use educational tactics to ensure they understand and absorb the central lessons of sharing.
I also think it’s important to recognize the limits of this “grand philosophy”. The average MAGA cult member doesn’t really have one. They want a gallon of milk to cost $2 and a be able to get a 30 pack of Miller Lite every week without going bankrupt. Because they are poorly educated and too damned tired to care they want a silver bullet (see what I did there) to solve their problems, which this week means crowing a king. They don’t think beyond that, so why would you make the same mistake?
clawing out the political and cultural power back from their sweaty hands
And how do we accomplish that? It’s not a single line of effort but a combination of tactics: 1. Work harder to win at the ballot box which partly means: 2. Hold our mainstream party leaders to account and push them toward policies that will win elections. I happen to be aligned with Sanders on this and believe that to be policies that are progressive in nature but not in name; 3. Educate and inform. You can’t pull people away from MAGA thinking by shouting at them. f
I believe the best framework for approaching this is to acknowledge the MAGA “movement” as a cult. It’s members are often less educated and have not developed critical thinking skills nor the mental resilience to resist the brainwashing. This is only sometimes a question of intelligence - I do believe that processed food and exposure to pollutants has lowered average intelligence in particularly unjust ways, but I don’t think that’s the central issue here. Mainly it’s a question of education and the only way to successfully educate people is to meet them where they are and to open minds, not close them.
Uh, Trump feels completely justified in jailing his enemies already. Will it happen? I’m not excited to wait and find out.
True. But the one thing we’ve got going for us is that it is demonstrably wrong and we didn’t fall into the trap of proving it was justified.
Edit: well at least two people think it’s ok to use authoritarian political power to counter authoritarian political power. Do you really think that ever works out? Note that this is very distinct from something like civil war or overthrowing the government. It’s doing the exact thing you don’t want your opponent to do.
Yeah, ww2 was settled by a nice peaceful sit-in.
After Hitler came to power, invaded multiple countries and started murdering millions.
It’s easy to look back and say, “well, if we had just taken Hitler out none of that would have happened” but at the time - before the war - that was less clear. Many in Germany enthusiastically supported him and it’s helpful to be reminded of why: The Treaty of Versailles at the end of WWI was highly punitive. The German people felt rather justified for WWI and reacted with anger to the treaty - it’s widely acknowledged as a significant contributing factor in WWII in that it opened the door to the kind of grievance Hitler was selling. By the time more people understood his aims and means it was too late and there was no alternative to war.
Now you might say well then, that just means we should have removed the Trump threat by any means necessary. I’m very sympathetic to that idea but I have a hard time accepting that for one simple reason: the lessons of WWI and II show that grievance is central to the authoritarian narrative. Direct confrontation that feeds that grievance only inflames it. A better course of action for the Democrats would have been to acknowledge the pain of wealth disparity all Americans feel and acknowledge our common goals. Instead we lent credence to the grievance and opened the door for Trump to capitalize on it.
Tis a risky game, doing what’s right.
“what’s right” is, sadly not an agreed-upon concept.
Are you really achieving authoritarian aims if the end goal is not authoritarian?
Ah, the benevolent dictator fallacy. Because no person or party would ever abuse power or fail to give it up once the “aim” is achieved. There certainly would be no expansion in what the “aim” is. And definitely the people we agree with are always good.
I doubt we’d ever have another election again.
With Trump in office, and Project 2025 in the pipeline, I doubt we’re ever going to have another election anyway.
I doubt we’re ever going to have another election anyway.
I sometimes feel that way. But I still have some faith in people, particularly Gen Z. I believe after the shit hits the fan and keeps hitting it for 4 years, that we’ll turn this around. And because we didn’t agree to make presidents kings we can actually do that.
Yeah, it might be just to arrest him, but America clearly doesn’t give a fuck. The fact of the matter is the people picked Trump this election, if nothing else arresting him will only galvanize his followers and legitimatize their own turn to fascism. There’s no good outcome in this scenario, we missed that opportunity on election night. It sucks but right now we’re the kid playing with fire; obviously we need to learn the hard way. We should’ve learned from the last trump presidency you say? Yeah, we really, really should’ve.
Biden doesn’t even know wtf is going on. If he does, the last thing he’s doing is trying to salvage his legacy. He’s got no fight in him.
He truly fucked us. Not saying Harris would’ve won necessarily, but having only 3 months to run a campaign against someone who’s been running for 8 years is tricky. You can see why given the number of people googling if Biden dropped out…
A legacy of “Used powers given to him by the Supreme Court to stop Hitler 2.0” would be better than “Sucked Trump’s dicker harder than Elon did.”
For real. Dudes got 15-20 years left on this Earth, at the maximum. Stopping Trump and actually making sure he is charged for his crimes would be quite the footnote in the history books. I can’t imagine being that old and passing an opportunity like that up, but then again I am a simple prole.
He’s not Hitler 2.0 yet though. This is Hitler 2.0 RC 1.
The history books won’t know what will not have had happened.
What I’m saying is, if a madman is stopped before he goes mad, then wouldn’t he then never have been a madman? Was the one stopping him, justified? Can you defend their actions based on their presuppositions, even if the descent into madness is already evident?
Biden cozying up to a candidate the party portrayed as literally Hitler during the campaign will never not be funny to me
You mean depressing
Ok, and white must become black.
It’s happened before. You have to go all the way back to FDR, but it happened.
Al Jolsonmaxxing
“The establishment party must become an anti-establishment party”
Have you all learned nothing from 2016? Democrats will rather let Trump win that let this happen.
The slide to the right is no accident nor is it ignorance. Fool me once…
Are you suggesting that Democrats want alt-right leadership in power?
Yes, it’s good for their fundraising
They want corporarions to stay in power. The 2 parties are just flavours of capital.
Neither are for the public.
They and their donors would prefer thst over a Bernie win.
Nothing has convinced me of that more than Biden and Trump’s sudden bromance
alt-right
Stop pretending this is a thing. It’ll make it a lot easier to understand.
LA told me
"You’ll be a pop star
All you have to change
Is everything you are."
Going further right didn’t help, now we need to go as left as possible
Radical ideas like Universal healthcare, paid maternity leave, free child care, taxing the rich.
Radical ideas the rest of the 1st world had had for 50 years and successfully implemented.
We’re well aware, and it’s honestly getting old hearing “wElL tHe ReSt Of ThE wOrLd,” yeah, the UK voted to leave the EU and ousted a party to replace them with Labour who don’t want to hold another referendum on the vote.
India continues to elect the populist and nationalist Modi as their PM, because he gives them bags of rice with his name on them and tells them it’s ok to hate Muslims.
Germany is flirting with fascism again, and they’ve got all the stuff Americans are apparently too fucking stupid to get done, right?
Dutch police just rounded up a bunch of pro-Palestinian protesters, protesting peacefully, and then started beating them for not moving fast enough.
Oh, and the majority of European countries are freaking the fuck out about immigration and the floods of immigrants trying to come into their countries. And funnily enough, your politicians speak about immigrants the same way our Republicans do.
But you’re right, the people who weren’t alive 50 years ago when all of this should have been done, yeah, that’s our fucking fault too, right?
Or there needs to be an anti-establishment party, since the Democrats can never be one.
The issue is that unless we get rid of our first-past-the-post voting system and then enact further systemic change we are going to be stuck with the Republicans and Democrats.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo
Thankfully as Trump demonstrated, a political party can be hijacked to be whatever you want. But we need to do that to the Democratic Party, like Bernie tried to do. This will involve educating people out of their neoliberal positions and ideas but it can be done.
This will involve educating people out of their neoliberal positions and ideas but it can be done.
As I get older and meet more people, I find this goal harder and harder to reach. People are dumb.
I think it starts with a smart and leftist, populist candidate, who can convince the dumb ones amongst us to follow them blindly. Then they will be educated by seeing how better things are for them under leftist leadership.
Bernie, like you said, was basically trying to be this for the US.
We can help too by educating people online. =)
Or maybe just ban “parties” and this phony, slaver system
well just in time for the supreme-court-approved executions of the anti-establishment politicians. imagine not getting this after Bernie had massive support despite all the efforts of the Democratic party, and after the orange cunt winning just by paying lip service to being anti-establishment…
seriously, that’s all you needed to do. not actually do anything, not help anybody. just fucking lie and pretend you give a shit about people grievances about being crushed by the system.
you couldn’t even clear that bar on the fucking ground, and lost to a cunt who’s known for firing people, not paying for anything, and shitting on a gold toilet. because you’re physically incapable of criticizing systemic oppression.
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Yeah if only he hadn’t lost the popular vote TWICE in the primaries.
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The delegates too. But are you just gonna ignore MORE people voted Hillary and Biden over him to fit your narative?
It’s kinda hard to count the votes afterwards since candidates are forced to drop out before the primaries actually finish. Heck we usually don’t even make it past 6 states primaries out of 50 before a winner is announced.
“Party” goons =/= people.
They are the establishment. Why would they ever change? They would rather Trump win, than their easy paychecks be disrupted. You are never going to get a democrat to care about people.
It would be easier for progressives to take over the DNC and state Dems than to form an entirely new party and make it viable.
If that’s the case, then it’s never going to happen, because the democrats are never going to let it happen, so you’re basically saying stop voting or caring about anything and just lay down and die.
There is no future for the democratic party. This election convinced me that they are never going to care about anyone but their donors, and next election I won’t be voting for them. I’ve voted for the candidate they shoved down our throats to defeat Trump three times now, and most of the time they’ve fucked it up. No more “lesser evil” crap. I’m not voting for evil again, period.
No more “lesser evil” crap. I’m not voting for evil again, period.
The strategy you are describing makes minorities the cost of doing business. Instead of attempting to achieve moral victory over Democrats consider voting for Democrats in elections to leverage power for the people Republicans want to hurt and kill.
Just like GOP refugees created the Tea Party, we need to rally around the greatest symbol of the French Revolution, and build a Guillotine Party.
I’ve always thought “the guillotine society” had a nice ring to it… Not party isn’t bad either
Let’s call it the Rule of Law Party. One law for all of us. An end to elite impunity.
What?
They are the establishment.
Thus the call to become something else; become being the operative word, meaning to change from what they currently are.
You guys really need a third party already.
The issue is that we have third parties, but because of our first-past-the-post system their candidates act as spoilers mathematically speaking.
I live in a nation with more then two party’s and first past the post (it sucks). You guys need to stop making up reasons to not have viable 3rd parties.
It’s not made up, it’s math. And if your nation doesn’t enact systemic change to its system, your democracy will inevitably trend towards two viable political parties as well. edit: typo
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