Recently I posted a pretty harmless meme in my DSA chapter’s Discord (see image). It was in response to South Korea’s recent spate of Fascism.
In response I had comrades jump down my throat, attacking me for critical support of AES states like DPRK and China. According to these comrades “there is no real Socialist nation.”
As tempting as it is to quit DSA I think I should stay and try to educate.
Comrades also jumped on me for a comment I made months ago in response to some right wing BS where I said “maybe Democracy isn’t always a great idea”. The point I was trying to make was that Trans rights and other basic freedoms should never be put up to a popularity contest… I’m ok with a state that defends these rights and doesn’t allow a reactionary majority to vote them away!
During this thread, people brought up multiple times that DPRK isn’t Democratic because the Kim’s have always been the figurehead, China isn’t Democratic because “reasons” (racism), China lies about their suicide rates to WHO, etc.
Frustrating. I’ll post more details in the comments.
My question: What constitutes a “real” Democracy? Is it leadership changing hands every few years? We don’t have that in the U.S. Is it secret ballots? All the nationa above have that. Is it that the people’s votes and voices actually change the government actions? We saw this in China unfortunately when people demanded ending the COVID lock downs early. It was the wrong thing to do but done for the right reason.
And is there any hope for these people in my chapter? One of them was basically racist against Chinese people and they seem very set in this “not real Socialism” mindset.
Critical support doesn’t require DPRK et al. to be “real socialism” etc.
Right! Like I totally understand China is “Market Socialism” and see that as them on the road to Socialism. There are contradictions but also many strides in the right direction. I see the Deng reforms as a form of self-defense against the changing material conditions making switching to Capitalism tempting. I have a half-baked theory that “treats” and jealousy over said treats is what contributed to USSR collapsing, which China sidestepped by getting ahead of by “opening up”. That will probably be a separate post one day.
I’m somewhat there myself. It became way too (falsely ofc) obvious to the Soviet working class that Liberalism was just as or more emancipatory to them than the USSR’s socialist methods. Now I say falsely because pretty much without a State to resist the plundering of outside Capital, a lot of fucking people died and had their standard of living crater into the ground. But it is a central failure of the USSR, and imo a success story of China, to properly educate and elucidate the reality of Capital and their socialist project and incorporating the working class into a State to combat Capital. Great man theory is a shit, but the fact that every Soviet leader was continually worse at managing and combating Capital from Stalin onwards is pretty obvious, and yet that China has only gotten stronger and more robust in standing against bourgeois elements at home and abroad.
China themselves says they are still on the way to being a socialist society. But being on the way there is infinitely better than marching backwards
I wrote this during my trip to China, it’s an excerpt from a longer entry, but I found the same line of thought you discuss here;