Hi,

I’m looking for an instant messaging ( IM ) apps software/protocol that run on Android and computer

and meet the following requirements :

  • Open source !
  • E2EE
  • Messages are send in direct ! (not passing by a server)
  • handle group
  • Truly private ! ( That’s the tricky part )

 

The closest that I’ve found is Briar

  • +can work without internet ! (bluetooth, local wifi, files !)
  • + use TOR
  • - Mutual party have to exchange key (or your can introduce someone)
  • - sending media suck for now, poor image quality
  • - no call or voice messaging

 

I’ve been looking for alternatives:

  • Session
    • Sadly it keep ALL the conversation into server !!! so it’s a no go.
  • speek
    • I didn’t try it yet, any feedback ?
  • simplex
    • it look very promising ! (didn’t tried it yet)
    • + seem to handle multiple profile in one !
    • + do not require that both party send an invitation !
    • ! I didn’t found (yet) if the messages are send in direct or pass by a server…

All post about alternatives or experience with the one that I cited are welcome.

    • moreeni@lemm.ee
      8·
      7 months ago

      The “truly private” req really smells with “I have no threat model and don’t know what am I doing”

      • jet@hackertalks.comEnglish
        2·
        7 months ago

        Yeah. What does privacy mean?

        Does it mean nobody knows what you’re saying? Doesn’t mean nobody knows that you’re talking? Doesn’t mean nobody can tell two people have engaged in a conversation?

        In addition to direct observations, you can make indirect inferences from many of those characteristics.

        If I can observe your peer to peer traffic I know who’s talking to who.

        If I can observe your network, onion routing layer, I can determine who is talking to who with high probability

        If I can see network traffic at all, I can determine who our members of a group, if the group messages are delivered simultaneously.

        • KDE@monyet.cc
          1·
          7 months ago

          is rare, but briar as you identified is pretty good. Though android only.

          The trouble with peer to peer is it isn

          theres also notification scandal recently which i think the op doesnt know about

    • Skull giver@popplesburger.hilciferous.nl
      1·
      7 months ago

      If you allow for servers that can’t read your messages (Tor nodes and such), “serverless” messaging is quite possible. All the layers of encryption and redirection aren’t great for latency, but there’s no reason two phones can’t be connected over Tor/Veilid.

      The problem in practice, I think, is notifications. To receive notifications, you need to be online all the time. To be available on Tor all the time may help deanonimze you so you also need to shake up your connections every now and then, which requires some CPU heavy recalculations and key exchange from the network as connections are reestablished.

  • wincing_nucleus073@lemm.ee
    5·
    7 months ago

    simplex uses relays/servers, but incoming and outgoing messages are configured to pass through separate servers. you can see this in the network settings

  • KDE@monyet.cc
    2·
    7 months ago

    speek sucks in my opinion , i tried it ,

    tbh jami is the best app currently in the p2p messenging space

    berty sounds good as well , its built on top of ipfs and weshgaurd

    tox is good as well

    (i have messaged briar and berty team regarding some questions and i havent gotten its answer , i will update you when i get the answer)

  • ArcaneSlime@lemmy.dbzer0.com
    2·
    7 months ago

    Not exactly what you’re looking for, BUT the best bet would probably be jabber/xmpp. There is a server involved but you can be that server with a ras pi or an old laptop, or VPS, and with OMEMO e2ee, the server can’t see message content only “bob sends X to john.” And as the server owner you can keep no logs and trust yourself.

  • Possibly linux@lemmy.zipEnglish
    31·
    7 months ago

    Session doesn’t store logs on a central server. They are encrypted and stored on lokinet.

    Anyway other options are: Jami, Signal or Molly and maybe matrix. Keep in mind Briar will drain battery a bit and doesn’t receive notifications offline unless you setup a dedicated device

    • KDE@monyet.cc
      2·
      7 months ago

      https://www.securemessagingapps.com/ if you see closely for session , it says that attachments are centralized in their servers in canada

      session tries to promote their oxen cryptocurrency and lokinet which imo crypto currency are used by baiters to bait people into ruining their money

      you dont understand what signal /molly is , do you ? they are centralized server and OP specificially asked not centralized server / server for that matter

      matrix is good but it still need server , plus matrix.org takes quite a bit of metadata

      jami’s good but it uses turn server to verify your name

      briar’s bluetooth functionality can be violated plus no good ui/ux

      • jet@hackertalks.comEnglish
        0·
        7 months ago

        Interesting that you mentioned briar and Bluetooth. What is the issue with Bluetooth?

        • KDE@monyet.cc
          1·
          7 months ago

          just search seytonic bluetooth on yt , you can find it preety easily ngl

          • jet@hackertalks.comEnglish
            2·
            7 months ago

            Okay, just on general principles telling me to watch an influencer on YouTube who summarizes an article isn’t a great way to have a discussion.

            But whatever, I think this is the article you’re referring to:

            https://www.theregister.com/2023/12/06/bluetooth_bug_apple_linux/

            Bluetooth keyboard, keystroke injections.

            That’s a generalized Bluetooth issue, not a briar issue. I was just curious if there was a specific briar implementation problem, but if this is the article you’re referring to then briar is fine and hasn’t had a issue.

            • KDE@monyet.cc
              1·
              7 months ago

              i have an exam tomorrow and as such i wasnt able to show you all the sources

              and no currently htrere is no briar specific problem in my radar “yet”

      • Possibly linux@lemmy.zipEnglish
        0·
        7 months ago

        Session does not have centralized servers in Canada. There are issues with session but centralized servers aren’t one of them.

    • Gordon_F@lemmy.mlOPEnglish
      0·
      7 months ago

      no ! thanks ! look promising too.

      I’ll try it and give my review… but is it require to make a “jami” account on their server !??

      • banazir@lemmy.ml
        0·
        7 months ago

        As I understand it, the account is on your machine only. If you delete your profile, it’s gone, unless you made backups. But I may be mistaken.

  • Gordon_F@lemmy.mlOPEnglish
    0·
    4 months ago

    A little update.

    I’ve just tested simplex on Android.

    it’s very well thought out ! The features make sense. UNFORTUNATELY it’s not P2P ! all the messages pass by their servers :'( with Briar it’s P2P… weirdly they claim their way is better than P2P ! any comment on that ?

    In my point of view, if messages are stored somewhere it’s mean the can be process[1] !

    Cheers.

    edit: lemmy link to their community !simplex@lemmy.ml

    1. Copied, analyzed, cracked (Brut force or what ever) ↩︎

      • Gordon_F@lemmy.mlOPEnglish
        0·
        4 months ago

        Thank you very much @jet@hackertalks.com & @Quexotic@beehaw.org

        The EFF article is really interesting for everyone. ( I was aware of this )

        Indeed no one should assume that his packets are not intercepted along the road. But conceive an software that on top of that, specifically route the traffic trough his server not make it better (on the opposite in my opinion)

        Even if the owner of those server do not process the data… ( This is relying on blind trust) those servers might be breached. (in addition to the systemic data recording, like in the EFF article )

        Let put it simple, is SimpleX offer on the actual Internet (can’t wait the next gen, GNUnet or anything similar) a similar level of Trust & privacy than Briar ?