Why would you write out that entire wall of text about half a sentence that has zero relevance to the actual substance of the article and then not even tell us the tiniest bit with how sheās supposedly wrong about Skinner when youāre in the middle of reading one of his works?
btw Julia Serranoās pronouns are she / her, wouldāve taken you like 10 seconds of googling. Thatās besides the point here, but consistently misgendering her over and over again on top of all this weird beating around the bush that you do, all this complaining about āmost disenfranchised folksā and our āpseudoscientific dismissalā of ancient and methodically dubious pre-replication crisis psychology, that realy rubs me the wrong way when you canāt even be bothered to get your actual point across. If youāre such a fucking brain genius, you should be able to come up with a more substantive criticism than āher arguments are flat out awfulā, at least she even has an argument to begin with, which i canāt say about anything of the vagueposting word salad youāve written.
Iām really sorry, youāre completely right about finding her pronouns. I doubt youād believe it as Iāve already soured myself with the mistakes I made. I was nervous and afraid and thought I would mess up anyways. I donāt believe you would understand unless you were willing to empathize with me, which is a big ask after what I did wrong. Iāll do my best to properly gender folks.
I think the tone you used is completely appropriate. Stating it is awful without, to your perception, giving an argument or substance is indeed inappropriate and disrespectful of Juliaās work.
I very much donāt appreciate the terms you used. I donāt think itās my place to ask you to take it back or apologize. I do want to make it known so hopefully other people reading it can be more sensitive to me. I really hate having to identify myself with a laundry list of conditions to be taken seriously or spoken to with respect. I use vague language because I am questioning. This paragraph was only written because I donāt know how else you might care about the content of what I write; you can see I post in POC and I have mentioned being in the area of neurodiverse (I am questioning there to). Do not make me elaborate further please.
I donāt like that you used āword saladā. I donāt know why you used it, if itās because I wrote a lot and there was no substance or the negative highly outweighed the positive, I accept it and I still do not appreciate that. I donāt think itās a word salad at all. My entire life Iāve been told I speak or write too much. Maybe everyone except my wife and therapist and psychologist and psychiatrist is right? No, I no longer accept that, I can validate myself and insist that there was good content there and you were unable to understand it. I must not have communicated it well or in a way amenable to you and others who have commented. I already made a severe mistake in misgendering (I wanted to say; I was not referring to Julia with the subjects I used in my sentences; another example of myself not communicating clearly and you misunderstanding as a result, again I apologize, I wonāt invalidate your experience and say that what you felt was wrong or incorrect, I can be dialectical and accept both) the author of the piece as you and I think one other commenter pointed out.
I donāt appreciate the label āf****** brain geniusā and reject it. If you want to engage further I request you do not use that term or similar terms with me and give me a modicum of respect now that I have had a chance to explain myself. Not vindicate, or ālet-myself-off-the-hookā, I accept your criticisms and I will not do that thing HR does "we hear your concerns and accept them " and proceed to do nothing of the sort. I will now be better with properly gendering people and searching for a personās appropriate pronouns and when I donāt know or use the wrong ones, to refrain from misgendering so many times. As well to make it clear when I changed the subject from an individual to a broader and more abstract (and still valid) subject.
I want to engage with the content of what you said that doesnāt have to do with my mistakes and grievances. I do not know if it is worth your time. I have to sleep soon as itās past midnight. If you wonāt treat me with respect and wonāt refrain from hurtful language then I would kindly ask you to disengage, or I can if you like, since I made the initial transgression. Iām pretty sure Iāve poisoned the well for any further discussion of my initial points & thesis. Or, you can report me to a mod; as my behaviour here was inappropriate and I am unwelcome. Or in the case you continue and do not disengage, I can report you to prevent more hurtful language.
You have every right to feel the way you do. I do not have to have a continued (i.e. further discussion with several responses and a long thread) hurtful and harmful labelling after I have indicated explicitly I do not like it and I request you do not use the aforementioned labels.
Look, i get what youāre trying to say and iām sorry for being standoffish. Just to put this in perspective and understand why iām coming off like that recently, most of the last weeks have been rough for me, i had to deal with a covid infection that ruined a lot of plans i had, i felt super isolated and depressed because i could not meet up with my gal pal and my support network due to being ill, iāve had trouble with my employment situation and my landlord, so all in all i was just in a really foul mood and honestly iāve been kind of mean online because of that. Thatās not to say this makes it ok to engage in a discussion in the way i often do atm, but i hope this takes some of the weight out of my post and makes it seem less like me coming after you personally. Honestly, that goes for a lot of what iāve been posting recently.
Anyway, my main point is this: You shouldnāt have to worry about saying inappropriate things just by engaging with Serranoās text. If you think sheās making mistakes in regards to Skinnerās work, youāre free to point them out and give your own perspective on how he viewed human socialization, that may add something to the discussion. I donāt think she has a problem with Skinner per se, i donāt think she was trying to say that he was being transphobic in his work or whatever, i think she just used a household name like his as a jumping off point to say that weāve largely moved away from earlier āblank slateā models of socialization. And if you think that it misrepresents Skinners work to frame it like that, it would give some perspective if you elaborate on that if you feel like it.
If not, i donāt mind if we just agree that we met each other on a wrong foot and disengage here, thatās really up to you.
Thanks for the response. Iām sorry you had a rough week, Iād think it would make having to engage with someone who was ignorant and made the errors I made even more unpleasant. I donāt care if I didnāt know or couldnāt know.
If I couldnāt know I still think I can act in a way that doesnāt misgender or otherwise be vague and antagonistic. And if I canāt do that Iād really rather just not say anything if I can. I donāt think what I said has any value anymore.
I mean I learned from it and I donāt know what it meant to other people. Other people did let me know how what I did was wrong and can be easily avoided. From what others said though, which is what I use because I genuinely donāt know how they feel or think, what I wrote wasnāt helpful and the comment did not need to be made which I, like right now not before, also think was inappropriate and unnecessary.
Thanks again for your response, sharing a bit about yourself, and being willing to try again. I donāt have anything else to say besides thanks. Honestly Iām now afraid of saying anything or like giving details of what I alluded to in my initial and rightly removed comment.
Iām so afraid that Iāll say something to hurt people who are among the last Iād like to hurt. Iām obviously a bit afraid of something hurtful being said to me, I canāt say I can take it, only that Iāve suffered enough to feel comfortable thatās something I am able to experience. What is more suffering really? If I welcome it, nothing changes. If I do my best to get rid of it, it gets worse. It doesnāt make sense to me and I canāt figure it out. Or at least I havenāt been able to for at least more than some 18 odd years.
I did not know who Julia was, I read several popular pieces by her. Didnāt engage with her books, but skimmed her PhD thesis at University of Kansas (which deadnames her). It was the kind of work that wouldnāt be appreciated I think by those outside the field (biology is my subject of choice and background) and is not glamorous, but it is of the kind of work that enables others to get the flashy stuff done. Itās the in-between āplumbingā that people might look down on, but use all the same. Thereās good respect there, itās the equivalent of public service for 'omic work in the model organism which was her target.
I did my homework, Iām still trying to learn, itās only; I donāt want to keep hurting people while Iām doing it.
Sorry for the essay. I do hope I can engage positively with you in the future. You seem to be considerate and thoughtful.
Oh I also wanted to add that it was really validating when you said you got what I was trying to say. I appreciate it and your apology (which I donāt find necessary and will accept as I concede you have a better idea of what you are apologizing for) and want to say it made my good day which became bad near the end decent. Yeah, not good, still better than before.
Hi, I was writing an email to The New Inquiry to ask a question about submitting a piece. I read this piece (linked somewhere on hexbearā¦) and really liked it and sorta skimmed through other stuff.
Iām trying to say that, while I was writing the email I misgendered the author while mentioning what I liked about his piece. I only thought to double check because I remembered what you (and other commenters) said with your comments. Itās a real bad habit, and a hurtful one. I think I may have it under control, if not now, then soon.
If you wanted an āexplanationā, Iāll put it below in spoilers. I am not writing it to not accept responsibility and be liable for what I did, just, to like correct others like me maybe.
why i keep using 'they' by default
I donāt actually interact with people. I have a partner, and pets. I am usually talking in my head about groups of people or abstract representations of people, not actual people. That still doesnāt make misgendering appropriate obviously.
I also did my best to use it because I wanted it to sound natural which I think I could do only if I used it and it became like other pronouns and words I use that I donāt think about.
I had a teacher in high school who was pretty cool. One time when reading a handout, she said, every time there was a āheā (the thing we read was really unnecessarily gendered) she would say āhe or sheā.
I thought it was kinda clunky and it sounded off. I thought, āIāve seen people say āhe/sheā, why does she need to say āorā? She already said it a few times, I feel like she could use āhe/sheā and it would still get the message across and itās like less sounds so itās more efficient! (remember, I was in high school and I am a cishet man; I thought saying things as quickly as possible was better) Or why doesnāt she use āsheā? That would be better too. Oh, why not just use they?ā
Eventually I started using they, I didnāt want to have to deal with using the wrong pronouns and figured I would get corrected (I didnāt think I could ask the person for their pronouns or name, and refer in a way which doesnāt use pronouns to be sure I donāt use the wrong one) by the person. I just didnāt want trouble, I donāt mean like not for me, I didnāt want to bother anyone for something I could change I think pretty easily (over like some period of time). Of course that was self-centered, and you can kinda notice I really just write my thoughts and donāt always think before.
Eventually I started to use other words to be comfortable with changing the word I use in reference to a person or persons: āoneā, āpersonā, āfolkā, āpersonsā, āpeopleā, āpeoplesā, āindividualā (<- my fav probably), āindividualsā, āgroupā, āpartyā, āagentā, āactorā, āsuch-and-suchā, āhumanā, āhumanityā, āhumansā (donāt like peoplekind cuz a politician used it, obv Iād use it if others wished or asked), āonesā, and I think thatās nearly all of them. I feel like there is one or two more but I canāt really remember.
You might say these arenāt pronouns and not what people want, and thatās completely true. And I think thatās why I keep messing up. I basically did something without someone (<- this was one I forgot!!) or some people asking, āfor themā when really I could only be sure that it was for me.
Thanks for coming to my ted-talk.
Now Iām working on being much better with asking and not misgendering.
Why would you write out that entire wall of text about half a sentence that has zero relevance to the actual substance of the article and then not even tell us the tiniest bit with how sheās supposedly wrong about Skinner when youāre in the middle of reading one of his works?
btw Julia Serranoās pronouns are she / her, wouldāve taken you like 10 seconds of googling. Thatās besides the point here, but consistently misgendering her over and over again on top of all this weird beating around the bush that you do, all this complaining about āmost disenfranchised folksā and our āpseudoscientific dismissalā of ancient and methodically dubious pre-replication crisis psychology, that realy rubs me the wrong way when you canāt even be bothered to get your actual point across. If youāre such a fucking brain genius, you should be able to come up with a more substantive criticism than āher arguments are flat out awfulā, at least she even has an argument to begin with, which i canāt say about anything of the vagueposting word salad youāve written.
Iām really sorry, youāre completely right about finding her pronouns. I doubt youād believe it as Iāve already soured myself with the mistakes I made. I was nervous and afraid and thought I would mess up anyways. I donāt believe you would understand unless you were willing to empathize with me, which is a big ask after what I did wrong. Iāll do my best to properly gender folks.
I think the tone you used is completely appropriate. Stating it is awful without, to your perception, giving an argument or substance is indeed inappropriate and disrespectful of Juliaās work.
I very much donāt appreciate the terms you used. I donāt think itās my place to ask you to take it back or apologize. I do want to make it known so hopefully other people reading it can be more sensitive to me. I really hate having to identify myself with a laundry list of conditions to be taken seriously or spoken to with respect. I use vague language because I am questioning. This paragraph was only written because I donāt know how else you might care about the content of what I write; you can see I post in POC and I have mentioned being in the area of neurodiverse (I am questioning there to). Do not make me elaborate further please.
I donāt like that you used āword saladā. I donāt know why you used it, if itās because I wrote a lot and there was no substance or the negative highly outweighed the positive, I accept it and I still do not appreciate that. I donāt think itās a word salad at all. My entire life Iāve been told I speak or write too much. Maybe everyone except my wife and therapist and psychologist and psychiatrist is right? No, I no longer accept that, I can validate myself and insist that there was good content there and you were unable to understand it. I must not have communicated it well or in a way amenable to you and others who have commented. I already made a severe mistake in misgendering (I wanted to say; I was not referring to Julia with the subjects I used in my sentences; another example of myself not communicating clearly and you misunderstanding as a result, again I apologize, I wonāt invalidate your experience and say that what you felt was wrong or incorrect, I can be dialectical and accept both) the author of the piece as you and I think one other commenter pointed out.
I donāt appreciate the label āf****** brain geniusā and reject it. If you want to engage further I request you do not use that term or similar terms with me and give me a modicum of respect now that I have had a chance to explain myself. Not vindicate, or ālet-myself-off-the-hookā, I accept your criticisms and I will not do that thing HR does "we hear your concerns and accept them " and proceed to do nothing of the sort. I will now be better with properly gendering people and searching for a personās appropriate pronouns and when I donāt know or use the wrong ones, to refrain from misgendering so many times. As well to make it clear when I changed the subject from an individual to a broader and more abstract (and still valid) subject.
I want to engage with the content of what you said that doesnāt have to do with my mistakes and grievances. I do not know if it is worth your time. I have to sleep soon as itās past midnight. If you wonāt treat me with respect and wonāt refrain from hurtful language then I would kindly ask you to disengage, or I can if you like, since I made the initial transgression. Iām pretty sure Iāve poisoned the well for any further discussion of my initial points & thesis. Or, you can report me to a mod; as my behaviour here was inappropriate and I am unwelcome. Or in the case you continue and do not disengage, I can report you to prevent more hurtful language.
You have every right to feel the way you do. I do not have to have a continued (i.e. further discussion with several responses and a long thread) hurtful and harmful labelling after I have indicated explicitly I do not like it and I request you do not use the aforementioned labels.
Look, i get what youāre trying to say and iām sorry for being standoffish. Just to put this in perspective and understand why iām coming off like that recently, most of the last weeks have been rough for me, i had to deal with a covid infection that ruined a lot of plans i had, i felt super isolated and depressed because i could not meet up with my gal pal and my support network due to being ill, iāve had trouble with my employment situation and my landlord, so all in all i was just in a really foul mood and honestly iāve been kind of mean online because of that. Thatās not to say this makes it ok to engage in a discussion in the way i often do atm, but i hope this takes some of the weight out of my post and makes it seem less like me coming after you personally. Honestly, that goes for a lot of what iāve been posting recently.
Anyway, my main point is this: You shouldnāt have to worry about saying inappropriate things just by engaging with Serranoās text. If you think sheās making mistakes in regards to Skinnerās work, youāre free to point them out and give your own perspective on how he viewed human socialization, that may add something to the discussion. I donāt think she has a problem with Skinner per se, i donāt think she was trying to say that he was being transphobic in his work or whatever, i think she just used a household name like his as a jumping off point to say that weāve largely moved away from earlier āblank slateā models of socialization. And if you think that it misrepresents Skinners work to frame it like that, it would give some perspective if you elaborate on that if you feel like it.
If not, i donāt mind if we just agree that we met each other on a wrong foot and disengage here, thatās really up to you.
Thanks for the response. Iām sorry you had a rough week, Iād think it would make having to engage with someone who was ignorant and made the errors I made even more unpleasant. I donāt care if I didnāt know or couldnāt know.
If I couldnāt know I still think I can act in a way that doesnāt misgender or otherwise be vague and antagonistic. And if I canāt do that Iād really rather just not say anything if I can. I donāt think what I said has any value anymore.
I mean I learned from it and I donāt know what it meant to other people. Other people did let me know how what I did was wrong and can be easily avoided. From what others said though, which is what I use because I genuinely donāt know how they feel or think, what I wrote wasnāt helpful and the comment did not need to be made which I, like right now not before, also think was inappropriate and unnecessary.
Thanks again for your response, sharing a bit about yourself, and being willing to try again. I donāt have anything else to say besides thanks. Honestly Iām now afraid of saying anything or like giving details of what I alluded to in my initial and rightly removed comment.
Iām so afraid that Iāll say something to hurt people who are among the last Iād like to hurt. Iām obviously a bit afraid of something hurtful being said to me, I canāt say I can take it, only that Iāve suffered enough to feel comfortable thatās something I am able to experience. What is more suffering really? If I welcome it, nothing changes. If I do my best to get rid of it, it gets worse. It doesnāt make sense to me and I canāt figure it out. Or at least I havenāt been able to for at least more than some 18 odd years.
I did not know who Julia was, I read several popular pieces by her. Didnāt engage with her books, but skimmed her PhD thesis at University of Kansas (which deadnames her). It was the kind of work that wouldnāt be appreciated I think by those outside the field (biology is my subject of choice and background) and is not glamorous, but it is of the kind of work that enables others to get the flashy stuff done. Itās the in-between āplumbingā that people might look down on, but use all the same. Thereās good respect there, itās the equivalent of public service for 'omic work in the model organism which was her target.
I did my homework, Iām still trying to learn, itās only; I donāt want to keep hurting people while Iām doing it.
Sorry for the essay. I do hope I can engage positively with you in the future. You seem to be considerate and thoughtful.
Oh I also wanted to add that it was really validating when you said you got what I was trying to say. I appreciate it and your apology (which I donāt find necessary and will accept as I concede you have a better idea of what you are apologizing for) and want to say it made my good day which became bad near the end decent. Yeah, not good, still better than before.
Hi, I was writing an email to The New Inquiry to ask a question about submitting a piece. I read this piece (linked somewhere on hexbearā¦) and really liked it and sorta skimmed through other stuff.
Iām trying to say that, while I was writing the email I misgendered the author while mentioning what I liked about his piece. I only thought to double check because I remembered what you (and other commenters) said with your comments. Itās a real bad habit, and a hurtful one. I think I may have it under control, if not now, then soon.
If you wanted an āexplanationā, Iāll put it below in spoilers. I am not writing it to not accept responsibility and be liable for what I did, just, to like correct others like me maybe.
why i keep using 'they' by default
I donāt actually interact with people. I have a partner, and pets. I am usually talking in my head about groups of people or abstract representations of people, not actual people. That still doesnāt make misgendering appropriate obviously.
I also did my best to use it because I wanted it to sound natural which I think I could do only if I used it and it became like other pronouns and words I use that I donāt think about.
I had a teacher in high school who was pretty cool. One time when reading a handout, she said, every time there was a āheā (the thing we read was really unnecessarily gendered) she would say āhe or sheā.
I thought it was kinda clunky and it sounded off. I thought, āIāve seen people say āhe/sheā, why does she need to say āorā? She already said it a few times, I feel like she could use āhe/sheā and it would still get the message across and itās like less sounds so itās more efficient! (remember, I was in high school and I am a cishet man; I thought saying things as quickly as possible was better) Or why doesnāt she use āsheā? That would be better too. Oh, why not just use they?ā
Eventually I started using they, I didnāt want to have to deal with using the wrong pronouns and figured I would get corrected (I didnāt think I could ask the person for their pronouns or name, and refer in a way which doesnāt use pronouns to be sure I donāt use the wrong one) by the person. I just didnāt want trouble, I donāt mean like not for me, I didnāt want to bother anyone for something I could change I think pretty easily (over like some period of time). Of course that was self-centered, and you can kinda notice I really just write my thoughts and donāt always think before.
Eventually I started to use other words to be comfortable with changing the word I use in reference to a person or persons: āoneā, āpersonā, āfolkā, āpersonsā, āpeopleā, āpeoplesā, āindividualā (<- my fav probably), āindividualsā, āgroupā, āpartyā, āagentā, āactorā, āsuch-and-suchā, āhumanā, āhumanityā, āhumansā (donāt like peoplekind cuz a politician used it, obv Iād use it if others wished or asked), āonesā, and I think thatās nearly all of them. I feel like there is one or two more but I canāt really remember.
You might say these arenāt pronouns and not what people want, and thatās completely true. And I think thatās why I keep messing up. I basically did something without someone (<- this was one I forgot!!) or some people asking, āfor themā when really I could only be sure that it was for me.
Thanks for coming to my ted-talk.
Now Iām working on being much better with asking and not misgendering.