Who even needs investigative journalists with hidden cameras when there’s Israeli state television

    • nte
      3·
      10 months ago

      1943 is not that long ago, television existed, especially in Germany.> Television in Germany began in Berlin on 22 March 1935, broadcasting for 90 minutes three times a week. It was home to the first public television station in the world, named Fernsehsender Paul Nipkow.>

      • mosiacmango@lemm.ee
        953·
        10 months ago

        The fact that Israel has intentionally put itself in the position to be compared to the horrors of Nazi Germany is the problem, bud.

        • UltraMagnus0001@lemmy.world
          151·
          10 months ago

          I can’t understand how these people are so blinded by the facts right in front of their faces. I guess the hate is strong

          • I Cast Fist@programming.dev
            62·
            10 months ago

            My guess is numbers. “Only” 28k palestinians vs. over 6 million jews. Also that they’re not being killed en masse after capture (although it really feels like Netanyahu would love to do that)

      • DAMunzy@lemmy.dbzer0.com
        131·
        10 months ago

        I guess you don’t equate it because the prisoners aren’t starved and abused enough? How much worse do you want it to get before you denounce it? It’s at least as bad as what the Americans were doing in the Abu Ghraib prison.

          • Linkerbaan@lemmy.world
            72·
            10 months ago

            Multiple Children in Gaza have already been killed with starvation by israel. Palestinians locked in a concentration camp.

            WHO can’t even bring food to the north which is supposedly “fully controlled by israel” which tells you enough about intentional starvation and genocide.

            If you wanna do Genocide denial consider Reddit. We have indeed lost that “nuance” which you still posses.

            • assassin_aragorn@lemmy.world
              51·
              10 months ago

              OP presents a great example of intelligence vs wisdom. Intelligence is knowing the Holocaust was technically worse. Wisdom is knowing that really doesn’t matter here. The nuance they’re talking about is pointless, especially when you consider that we didn’t know about the forced labor, heinous science experiments, and systematic killing until later on.

              The earlier stages of the Holocaust were very similar to what Israel is doing now. And what’s scary is that they’re accelerating too.

              • DAMunzy@lemmy.dbzer0.com
                1·
                10 months ago

                we didn’t know about the forced labor, heinous science experiments, and systematic killing until later on.

                I believe we knew just not the extent.

      • Colour_me_triggered@lemm.ee
        840·
        10 months ago

        That sort of comment is to be expected on Lemmy. A lot of very ignorant people here. Obviously the Holocaust wasn’t as well taught in Australia as it was in the Netherlands.

        • pjwestin@lemmy.world
          18·
          10 months ago

          Yeah, I can’t believe anyone would be ignorant enough to compare Israel’s actions to the Holocaust. The Palestinian genocide clearly has more in common with the Armenian genocide than the Jewish genocide. I mean, forcing the Palestinians into southern Gaza while killing them indiscriminately and starving them to death is just begging for a comparison to the 1915 death marches. C’mon people, more countries than just Germany and Israel have committed genocide, think for a minute about your historical parallels!

        • cosmicrookie@lemmy.world
          11·
          10 months ago

          So… you are skeptical and critical of how much the Israeli genocide of Palestine resembles the Holocaust? The issue is not that. The issue is that Israel of all countries is doing this even in a smaller and “milder” form.

            • TheFriar@lemm.ee
              171·
              10 months ago

              I mean, I think people go to the Nazi well a little too frequently. It’s almost like, “you’re on my side, or you’re a Nazi.”

              Now, this has made it very confusing in recent years when we had real-ass nazis trying to claim power. But pointing that out became muddied when held up to the years and years of “Nazi” labels being thrown around.

              However, it’s not completely out of line to be making genocide claims. Because…I mean…what’s happening in Gaza is pretty standard genocidal behavior. But with the nazis being the standard bearer of what people see as genocide, people usually only express it as “this is the holocaust.”

              And if you think it’s okay to do this to prisoners—I mean, you’re belittling abuse by making some flippant remark about keeping six people tied on their hands and knees in a four foot room while keeping them malnourished—then you’re only missing one aspect of why people are calling what’s happening a genocide. The other aspect of that is all of the rhetoric coming from Israel that shows the sort of “sub-human” othering of the Palestinian people along with the seemingly complete annihilation of this culture and people.

              The “no mattresses” thing isn’t happening in a vacuum. It’s happening within the context of prisoner abuse. Which is happening within the context of and overwhelming force keeping a specific group penned into a smaller and smaller area, while they seemingly indiscriminately bomb a cultural group nearly out of existence, while there is system-wide othering of this group of people, and they’re spoken of as if they’re sub-human. And treated that way.

            • Micromot@feddit.de
              10·
              10 months ago

              Keep them in shackles in very small cells with nothing, not even mattresses or food that is more than bread. This is subhuman treatment. A lot of prisons in other countries which is equally fucked up but that is not relevant for this conversation

            • ???@lemmy.world
              92·
              10 months ago

              Imagine yourself in the place of one of these men. How would you feel? Would that be acceptable to you? Would that be acceptable to your parents? Would it be acceptable to your spouse to not know where you are being held or why? Would it be acceptable for you as a lawyer to get no legal representation because a colonizer decided you are going to be tortured and humiliated for being X ethnicity?

              • Colour_me_triggered@lemm.ee
                25·
                10 months ago

                No-one is debating that the IDF are way over the line, but the comment made was comparing a picture of a masked dude saying the prisoners should be made to sleep without a mattress to the industrialised murder of an entire ethnic group over the majority of a continent with the sole purpose of eradicating them.

                • deft@lemmy.wtf
                  5·
                  10 months ago

                  lol people are debating that and this is an ethic cleansing of a region. they’d do the whole continent if they could they’ve literally said this

                • ???@lemmy.world
                  4·
                  10 months ago

                  It’s one symptom we see in systems like Nazi Germany, and apartheid Israel. Hope that helps you understand what people are complaining about.

              • 【J】【u】【s】【t】【Z】@lemmy.world
                28·
                10 months ago

                Yellow cheese and bread would be fine with me if I was in prison as an enemy combatant and suspected terrorist.

                Such detention is usually indefinite, or at least usually lasts until whatever conflict ends, and POWs usually do not have a right to counsel.

                Stress positions are torture and that’s not a subject I know much about from an international law standpoint. If it’s not illegal it should be.

                But here you are once again without enough information to form a strong opinion, getting emotional, and reacting as if you have a real good idea of what’s happening in this video, which you do not. Are they stress positions that the inmates are forced to maintain for hours at a time, or were they told to get on the ground with their heads down and legs crossed so the cell could be opened safely for whoever that is touring the facility?

                The video and audio are cut up and spliced. You have no idea what the speaker is talking about when he says “this is how it should be after October 7.” Does he mean they should be in prison? Does he mean they should not be moving or talking? Does he mean they should be eating only white bread and yellow cheese? Does he mean they should be in stress positions being tortured? Who knows? Not me, not you. And this is how we got here: people reacting to the worst half of a story and automatically assuming the worst possible explanation. That’s just not how I operate; I can see that I do not have enough information to have a strong opinion about this video or photos, so I don’t have one.

                • ???@lemmy.world
                  6·
                  10 months ago

                  getting emotional, and reacting as if you have a real good idea of what’s happening in this video, which you do not.

                  I think you shut off your humanity and regard for others in that sentence.

                  It’s amazing the denial mode you enter when it’s about Israel’s crystal clear genocide. Suddenly you can’t see amymore.

                • Maggoty@lemmy.world
                  2·
                  10 months ago

                  Jesus. Even the US gives “enemy combatants” MREs. They are done and out of the fight. There’s no reason to mistreat them at that point. It’s just cruelty for the sake of it and no it’s not legal.

                  I had to guard detainees before they were taken to the rear, and after searching them they keep their clothes and get an MRE and a bottle of water. You just sit there in silence then. Nothing else is required. The fact that they’re in an armed camp handcuffed and hooded is enough to keep them quiescent. And once they’re in a prison there’s certainly no reason to treat them worse than we did in the field.

        • ???@lemmy.world
          103·
          10 months ago

          “I don’t agree with your comparison thus you must be ignorant.”

          Sounds petty

          • Colour_me_triggered@lemm.ee
            26·
            10 months ago

            Ok, I mean you’re entitled to your opinion. I’m just saying that what happens during a war is only clear after it’s ended. And certainly isn’t clear to keyboard warriors sitting on their couch in the states or Europe. There’s a very famous photo of German POWs being shown footage of a death camp prior to their release. The expressions on their faces show very clearly that they had no idea what was happening.

            Similarly after this conflict is over, it is very possible that some extremely damming evidence will come to light. But until the war is over, you have to assume that most of what you see on both sides will be propaganda or taken out of context to promote a political ideology. And it’s a foolish comparison to make without more evidence than an out of context picture of an asshole prison guard.

            • ???@lemmy.world
              71·
              10 months ago

              Everyone else seems to see enough clearly damning evidence. But no problem, we can wait until the genocide is over and all Gazans are dead. 👍 That way you don’t have to believe us “keyboard warriors” sharing journalistic investigations and video footage of the mayhem.

              • Colour_me_triggered@lemm.ee
                24·
                10 months ago

                Believe me I think Israel should pull out of Gaza and the settlers should leave the west bank. And I also believe that Palestine should be granted full independence according to 1967 borders. And I genuinely think that that would go a long way to establishing a climate of mutual hostility instead of straight up violence (I’m not naive enough to think that Israelis and Palestinians will ever be friends). Of course I shouldn’t be consulted, because I don’t live there and consulting Europeans about national borders in the middle east doesn’t seem to work. But I’m still not going to judge either side as being as bad as the Nazis, because I don’t have enough information to make that call.

                I am 100% against the IDF entering Gaza and executing civilians or Israelis settling in the west bank. I am also 100% against kidnapping civilians and digging up water pipes to make unguided rockets to be fired indiscriminately into residential areas.

                • ???@lemmy.world
                  62·
                  10 months ago

                  But I’m still not going to judge either side as being as bad as the Nazis, because I don’t have enough information to make that call.

                  Fair enough, even though that’s not at all how you came off. But I understand.

                  I, on the other hand, have enough evidence. 75 years of evidence.

            • Maggoty@lemmy.world
              2·
              10 months ago

              Dude. We have actual evidence, not circumstantial, not biased witnesses; of Israel inducing a famine, shooting unarmed civilians trying to cross their lines, killing reporters, and using doctors as human shields. (Who they then killed anyway).

              This isn’t a wait until it’s over thing. This is an act now thing. For reference these guys already have more credible war crime allegations in 4 months than the US had in 20 years over a much larger area. It’s not rocket science.

        • masquenox@lemmy.world
          31·
          10 months ago

          It must be so sad to see decades of fascist propaganda go to shit right before your very eyes, hasbara.

          Sad for you, that is.

          • Colour_me_triggered@lemm.ee
            52·
            10 months ago

            No Reddit is just as bad. This is a problem with people substituting ideology for intelligence. People will believe anything if they like the people telling them to. The truth of the matter is that no-one who is not involved in the conflict actually knows about what’s actually going on there. The IDF obviously have an incentive to cover up war crimes, but at the same time Hamas (a group internationally recognized as a terorist organization) is the government in the Gaza Strip and all the statistics about civilian casualties are cited as coming from "the government of Palestine.

            So again talking about the nazi Party and Israel in the same breath on the basis of a single translated image is fucking stupid.

  • Milk_Sheikh@lemm.ee
    42·
    10 months ago

    Even the old “state v non-state actor” issue is clear on this one - irregardless of human morality and basic decency:

    • If legit army, they must get full protections (IDF says no, int’l law is dubious for Al-Qassam - Hamas has command structure and salaries, but often skips uniforms and hides among the populace)
    • If not legit army, must be treated with protection offered to civilians UNTIL a court gets involved and adjudicates them to not be just civilians

    Article 11 - Protection of persons

    1. The physical or mental health and integrity of persons who are in the power of the adverse Party or who are interned, detained or otherwise deprived of liberty as a result of a situation referred to in Article 1 shall not be endangered by any unjustified act or omission

    [further down in same text]

    Article 45 - Protection of persons who have taken part in hostilities

    1. A person who takes part in hostilities and falls into the power of an adverse Party shall be presumed to be a prisoner of war… Should any doubt arise as to whether any such person is entitled to the status of prisoner of war, he shall continue to have such status and, therefore, to be protected by the Third Convention and this Protocol until such time as his status has been determined by a competent tribunal.

    2. If a person who has fallen into the power of an adverse Party is not held as a prisoner of war and is to be tried by that Party for an offence arising out of the hostilities, he shall have the right to assert his entitlement to prisoner-of-war status before a judicial tribunal and to have that question adjudicated…[more legalese and closing loopholes]…

    3. Any person who has taken part in hostilities, who is not entitled to prisoner-of-war status and who does not benefit from more favourable treatment in accordance with the Fourth Convention shall have the right at all times to the protection of Article 75 of this Protocol. In occupied territory, any such person, unless he is held as a spy, shall also be entitled, notwithstanding Article 5 of the Fourth Convention, to his rights of communication under that Convention.

    • cheese_greater@lemmy.world
      1·
      10 months ago

      Irregardless

      Just say regardless. The ir- negates something that already negates in the way you want. Its only fun to say, it very unfunly negates everything you say after it

  • Scratch@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
    401·
    10 months ago

    “What was on Oct 7th will not return.”

    Pretty sure this is how you fast-track yourself into another one, chief.

    • grue@lemmy.worldEnglish
      10·
      10 months ago

      Well, obviously. How else are they gonna manufacture their next causus belli?

  • Alien Nathan Edward@lemm.eeEnglish
    81·
    10 months ago

    the lesson Israel is gonna learn from this is how to separate the “most moral army in the world/we have a right to defend ourselves” propaganda intended for the global audience from the “we children of light shall bathe in the blood of the animals/no palestinian is innocent every man, woman and child must be tortured to death” propaganda that, until now, was kept internal.

  • juxta@reddthat.com
    230·
    10 months ago

    Oh noes! A video released by thr gubament meant to piss people off, this is only going to cause more violenceses and distrust of that state and the peopleses in it.

    To be honest, i could hardly watch that video, all the actors in it where glowing so bright.