While I don’t think it’s necessarily sufficient to justify defederating their whole instance, it’s worth noting that the reason they gave is definitely accurate. The BBC is incredibly transphobic. Here’s a Wikipedia article about one of their worst, most prominent instances. It’s no more so than is pretty standard in Britain these days, sadly, but that’s not a good bar to measure yourself against.
There was a big campaign of utilising the BBC’s complaints process to complain about the many flaws in that article. Here’s a YouTube video by one person involved in that campaign. That’s part 1 of 4 as the different stages of the process played out. The TL;DW is that the BBC ended up ignoring the complaints and ended up picking up on small flaws in the way the complaint was phrased (or just making up flaws where they didn’t really exist) to use as an excuse to “respond” saying there was no problem with their journalistic standards.
Obviously I would not want to defend that article. But it is worth pointing out that the BBC lets all sorts publish. So it’s not that the institution is necessarily transphobic, it’s just that individual who wrote the article is.
So it’s not that the institution is necessarily transphobic, it’s just that individual who wrote the article is.
This would be a reasonable response, were it not for the way that they repeatedly defended the article and did some crazy mental gymnastics to avoid responding to the critiques levied at it. Because the people responding to complaints going through the formal complaints process have to be ones who truly represent what the BBC as an institution is about. If they don’t, what’s the point of that process existing?
I think it’s just the one server run by a mentalcase tbh. Not the first time I’ve seen them mentioned. The other thing was them freaking out because of GIMP.
It’s honestly great to have the people who like to complain about things separated from the things they complain about. It sets for a more positive vibe in general, and probably does wonders for their blood pressure as well.
I think anyone who disagrees with this decision would have left that instance a long time ago anyway :)
Probably the word “gimp” and not understanding that since it’s all in capital letter that means it’s an abbreviation, and that abbreviation is "GNU image manipulation program. "
Quite the contrary. This way those who think the BBC is super transphobic and would complain about it in their posts don’t have to be exposed to their content; the rest of us don’t have to be exposed to their complaints about it. Everybody wins.
I get it, but picture this: a person wants to join mastodon.art because they like art. They see the rules that go “no transphobia” or whatever and they go: “OK, seems reasonable”. So they join, they invest their time and energy into the instance, and one day the admin decides that the whole national broadcasting network is someway evil and transphobic and must be blocked. I’d honestly be sooo pissed.
And not because the BBC’s account is absolutely necessary to a good Mastodon experience, but because blocking a whole instance for shit like this does not make sense. It’s not like the BBC goes around the Fediverse harassing trans people. The idea that you must block something so huge and valuable because it is - admittedly - partly dysfunctional is fucking mental. It’s the BBC, for God’s sake, not the KKK.
The Fediverse only works if we stop digging trenches and we start communicating more. It’s called the Fediverse, not the De-fediverse. It’s autonomous communities that talk to each other, not little fiefdoms at war with one another
and one day the admin decides that the whole national broadcasting network is someway evil and transphobic and must be blocked. I’d honestly be sooo pissed.
The Fediverse only works if we stop digging trenches and we start communicating more. It’s called the Fediverse, not the De-fediverse. It’s autonomous communities that talk to each other, not little fiefdoms at war with one another
The amount of irony in this comment is hilarious to a point. In all honesty, where was these points when a vast majority of Lemmy and Mastodon admins (and a majority of users) defederated or wanted to be defederated from Threads as soon as even a mention that they were federating with the fediverse came out. Furthermore, some instances just did it instantly without even asking their user base for these exact same reasons.
Besides, the BBC is a largely conservative network. Not as much as America (which says alot about our politics but that’s not the point). They had shown that they were not willing to even apologize for the blatant transphobia when they released that terrible article even out of numerous protests and complaints. There is a really good video by Shaun that really puts into perspective how transphobic and shit the BBC really is: https://vid.puffyan.us/watch?v=b4buJMMiwcg (invidious instance). It upsets me that alot of users here didn’t really give a damn about this exact issue when Threads was being defederated.
Besides my point, mastodon.art is quite known for being very quick to block and having very strict rules. No matter what, that’s something that users have to (or already have) come to respect. It is both the user and admins decsion to whatever they want with an instance. If a user doesn’t like it, leave. Move to another instance. Almost every other instance is allowing BBC to have access. Don’t support this behavior by continuing to use that platform.
So they join, they invest their time and energy into the instance
Ironically, the beauty of the mastodon (and really the fediverse really) is the fact that you can easily move and migrate over to a different instance. All your followers move over to the new account on the new instance while all your posts are archived on the old instance. So if you really wanted to leave .art, you could and even have an archive for your followers that can link you back to your account. This just really shows a lack of understanding or even care about Activity Pub. Otherwise, why be bothered. You’re not there. Why judge users and their admins on what they can or can’t do. Let the users who actually USE the platform to decide (maybe they want a really restrictive space).
OK just a couple of points here. I’m not gonna be brief because I care about all this. Sorry.
De-federating from Threads is not the same thing as de-federating from the BBC, it’s another issue entirely. Those who did it explained their choice with the fear that Meta could somehow “embrace, extend, and extinguish” Mastodon, plus with the fear of data collection etc etc. Now I’m not saying they are right (I don’t even know where I stand on this), but if those are their fears, we’re talking about the destruction of Mastodon itself. Which is not even comparable to what the BBC’s instance could do.
About the trasphobia itself: what the BBC did or did not do is besides the point: the BBC is too relevant to just block it willy-nilly, and also very reductive. If you block it, you throw away the baby with the bath water.
I would also dispute the idea that the BBC is “largely conservative”, but even that’s beside the point. Let’s pretend that it is: so what? Being conservative is not a crime and not all conservatives are Trump. I’m not conservative by any means, but I still want to see and hear what conservatives think. As a left-leaning dude, I WANT to know what they are up to.
My fear is that we’re weaponizing the Fediverse to create communities which are completely sheltered by the actual world. For all its flaws, Twitter was great in that it showed you a bit of everything. I don’t want to see the Fediverse become a series of spaces where people only agree with each other and don’t even want to engage in a discussion with someone they don’t agree with. What we’re both doing right now (disagreeing and debating) is so much more valuable that people think.
Lastly: being on it since 2017, I know full well how the fediverse works. And no, migrating from one Mastodon instance to another is not easy by any means. This article gained some traction recently and it explains why. But even this is besides the point. First, because ideally, you should not have to migrate to another instance. It’s possible, but is sucks. Second, because I’m talking about some cultural aspects of the Fediverse, and bringing the discussion to a technical level is a moot point.
My question and my whole point is this: is there a risk that the Fediverse is becoming an instrument to isolate ourselves from everything we don’t agree with? I.e. an instrrument of isolation instead of an instrument of federation?
I always argue that defederation will just result in echo chambers for both sides. And that can ultimately be worse.
In the case of defedding conservative instances, you’re also making their instances more of an echo chamber and increasing the likelihood of radicalising themselves further due to them no longer getting challenged on their beliefs, either by conversation/debate, or just by seeing positive posts from the opposite side.
If you have something bad to say about the bbc, defedding is not the answer to get your voice heard and potentially change them. They’ll hear about you defedding once (if at all), and then forget and move on. How would people be able to protest if the protest can’t even be seen.
(When I say “you” I’m not actually implying you feel these things, I’m just using generalist language to create a point - I agree with you and just extending from your point)
I absolutely see this point honestly. Defederating should be taken absolutely seriously and not just abused all the time. The more I sit on it, the more it just kinda sounds egotistical in a way. Though I am worried how it may feel like we are ignoring the trans community but I also feel you’re absolutely right when it comes to this point.
I get your point about the trans community. We absolutely need safe spaces for trans people. I’m not opposed to the idea of a sheltered community for vulnerable or harassed people (and in fact, for years, Mastodon was mainly a safe haven for trans people who were harassed on Twitter: Mastodon’s history is steeped in trans culture).
But I would understand this kind of aggressive defederation from an hypothetical mastodon.trans or from an explicitly lgbtq instance. Just not from mastodon.art, that’s it.
Then there’s Beehaw here on Lemmy. Some observations could apply to it too, but the situation is kind of different
…and already blocked by at least one instance, mastodon.art.
https://mastodon.art/@Curator/110809888584495290
While I don’t think it’s necessarily sufficient to justify defederating their whole instance, it’s worth noting that the reason they gave is definitely accurate. The BBC is incredibly transphobic. Here’s a Wikipedia article about one of their worst, most prominent instances. It’s no more so than is pretty standard in Britain these days, sadly, but that’s not a good bar to measure yourself against.
There was a big campaign of utilising the BBC’s complaints process to complain about the many flaws in that article. Here’s a YouTube video by one person involved in that campaign. That’s part 1 of 4 as the different stages of the process played out. The TL;DW is that the BBC ended up ignoring the complaints and ended up picking up on small flaws in the way the complaint was phrased (or just making up flaws where they didn’t really exist) to use as an excuse to “respond” saying there was no problem with their journalistic standards.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/b4buJMMiwcg
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source, check me out at GitHub.
Obviously I would not want to defend that article. But it is worth pointing out that the BBC lets all sorts publish. So it’s not that the institution is necessarily transphobic, it’s just that individual who wrote the article is.
This would be a reasonable response, were it not for the way that they repeatedly defended the article and did some crazy mental gymnastics to avoid responding to the critiques levied at it. Because the people responding to complaints going through the formal complaints process have to be ones who truly represent what the BBC as an institution is about. If they don’t, what’s the point of that process existing?
When I see this shit I lose all hope in the Fediverse’s success
I think it’s just the one server run by a mentalcase tbh. Not the first time I’ve seen them mentioned. The other thing was them freaking out because of GIMP.
It’s honestly great to have the people who like to complain about things separated from the things they complain about. It sets for a more positive vibe in general, and probably does wonders for their blood pressure as well.
I think anyone who disagrees with this decision would have left that instance a long time ago anyway :)
I like this take, despite (or perhaps because) reactionary engagement is more than half the reason social media has proliferated for this long.
Even if it kills Mastodon, having less angry people shouting at each other is undeniably a good thing
The art software GIMP? What happened?
Merriam Webster - “Gimp”
Probably the word “gimp” and not understanding that since it’s all in capital letter that means it’s an abbreviation, and that abbreviation is "GNU image manipulation program. "
This is so dumb. Jesus.
Wait I’m out of the loop. When was BBC transphobic?
EDIT: Is this it? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/"We're_being_pressured_into_sex_by_some_trans_women"
We really need a way to block entire instances at the user level.
Why am I not surprised lol
This is the way.
…to make the fediverse useless, yes
Quite the contrary. This way those who think the BBC is super transphobic and would complain about it in their posts don’t have to be exposed to their content; the rest of us don’t have to be exposed to their complaints about it. Everybody wins.
I get it, but picture this: a person wants to join mastodon.art because they like art. They see the rules that go “no transphobia” or whatever and they go: “OK, seems reasonable”. So they join, they invest their time and energy into the instance, and one day the admin decides that the whole national broadcasting network is someway evil and transphobic and must be blocked. I’d honestly be sooo pissed.
And not because the BBC’s account is absolutely necessary to a good Mastodon experience, but because blocking a whole instance for shit like this does not make sense. It’s not like the BBC goes around the Fediverse harassing trans people. The idea that you must block something so huge and valuable because it is - admittedly - partly dysfunctional is fucking mental. It’s the BBC, for God’s sake, not the KKK.
The Fediverse only works if we stop digging trenches and we start communicating more. It’s called the Fediverse, not the De-fediverse. It’s autonomous communities that talk to each other, not little fiefdoms at war with one another
The amount of irony in this comment is hilarious to a point. In all honesty, where was these points when a vast majority of Lemmy and Mastodon admins (and a majority of users) defederated or wanted to be defederated from Threads as soon as even a mention that they were federating with the fediverse came out. Furthermore, some instances just did it instantly without even asking their user base for these exact same reasons.
Besides, the BBC is a largely conservative network. Not as much as America (which says alot about our politics but that’s not the point). They had shown that they were not willing to even apologize for the blatant transphobia when they released that terrible article even out of numerous protests and complaints. There is a really good video by Shaun that really puts into perspective how transphobic and shit the BBC really is: https://vid.puffyan.us/watch?v=b4buJMMiwcg (invidious instance). It upsets me that alot of users here didn’t really give a damn about this exact issue when Threads was being defederated.
Besides my point, mastodon.art is quite known for being very quick to block and having very strict rules. No matter what, that’s something that users have to (or already have) come to respect. It is both the user and admins decsion to whatever they want with an instance. If a user doesn’t like it, leave. Move to another instance. Almost every other instance is allowing BBC to have access. Don’t support this behavior by continuing to use that platform.
OK just a couple of points here. I’m not gonna be brief because I care about all this. Sorry.
De-federating from Threads is not the same thing as de-federating from the BBC, it’s another issue entirely. Those who did it explained their choice with the fear that Meta could somehow “embrace, extend, and extinguish” Mastodon, plus with the fear of data collection etc etc. Now I’m not saying they are right (I don’t even know where I stand on this), but if those are their fears, we’re talking about the destruction of Mastodon itself. Which is not even comparable to what the BBC’s instance could do.
About the trasphobia itself: what the BBC did or did not do is besides the point: the BBC is too relevant to just block it willy-nilly, and also very reductive. If you block it, you throw away the baby with the bath water.
I would also dispute the idea that the BBC is “largely conservative”, but even that’s beside the point. Let’s pretend that it is: so what? Being conservative is not a crime and not all conservatives are Trump. I’m not conservative by any means, but I still want to see and hear what conservatives think. As a left-leaning dude, I WANT to know what they are up to.
My fear is that we’re weaponizing the Fediverse to create communities which are completely sheltered by the actual world. For all its flaws, Twitter was great in that it showed you a bit of everything. I don’t want to see the Fediverse become a series of spaces where people only agree with each other and don’t even want to engage in a discussion with someone they don’t agree with. What we’re both doing right now (disagreeing and debating) is so much more valuable that people think.
Lastly: being on it since 2017, I know full well how the fediverse works. And no, migrating from one Mastodon instance to another is not easy by any means. This article gained some traction recently and it explains why. But even this is besides the point. First, because ideally, you should not have to migrate to another instance. It’s possible, but is sucks. Second, because I’m talking about some cultural aspects of the Fediverse, and bringing the discussion to a technical level is a moot point.
My question and my whole point is this: is there a risk that the Fediverse is becoming an instrument to isolate ourselves from everything we don’t agree with? I.e. an instrrument of isolation instead of an instrument of federation?
I always argue that defederation will just result in echo chambers for both sides. And that can ultimately be worse.
In the case of defedding conservative instances, you’re also making their instances more of an echo chamber and increasing the likelihood of radicalising themselves further due to them no longer getting challenged on their beliefs, either by conversation/debate, or just by seeing positive posts from the opposite side.
If you have something bad to say about the bbc, defedding is not the answer to get your voice heard and potentially change them. They’ll hear about you defedding once (if at all), and then forget and move on. How would people be able to protest if the protest can’t even be seen.
(When I say “you” I’m not actually implying you feel these things, I’m just using generalist language to create a point - I agree with you and just extending from your point)
I absolutely see this point honestly. Defederating should be taken absolutely seriously and not just abused all the time. The more I sit on it, the more it just kinda sounds egotistical in a way. Though I am worried how it may feel like we are ignoring the trans community but I also feel you’re absolutely right when it comes to this point.
I get your point about the trans community. We absolutely need safe spaces for trans people. I’m not opposed to the idea of a sheltered community for vulnerable or harassed people (and in fact, for years, Mastodon was mainly a safe haven for trans people who were harassed on Twitter: Mastodon’s history is steeped in trans culture).
But I would understand this kind of aggressive defederation from an hypothetical mastodon.trans or from an explicitly lgbtq instance. Just not from mastodon.art, that’s it.
Then there’s Beehaw here on Lemmy. Some observations could apply to it too, but the situation is kind of different
I complained about defederating with threads all the time whenever it was brought up.
It’s free speech my friend, with it we should have the fediverse.
does not make sense to you, for people at mastodon.art it makes perfect sense I guess
I’ve tried to explain why I think it does not make sense, but thanks for your comment I guess, I had not thought about it /s
I don’t get why you’re so triggered by that. This doesn’t affect you at all unless you have an account at that instance.
I’m triggered by it the same way you are triggered by lots of stuff that does not affect you directly: I just care about some things.