TL:DR; weird fucking debate. Israeli side shifts from counterfactuals about the past to vulgar realpolitik about the present like itās nothing. Tightrope on an idealistic view of history and a materialistic view of the past. Fucking weird and itās presented in a fundamentally unconvincing way where theyāre basically saying āfuck international lawā over and over again. Iāve spliced in some commentary bits, marked as inline code blocks. All non-contiguous bits are timestamped. This is copied from the podcast transcript.
transcript highlights
(00:32:21)
Norman Finkelstein
Okay. Thereās a real problem here, and itās been a problem Iāve had over many years of reading your work. Apart perhaps from, as grandchild, I suspect nobody knows your work better than I do. Iāve read it many times, not once, not twice, at least three times everything youāve written. And the problem is, itās a kind of quicksilver. Itās very hard to grasp a point and hold you to it. So weāre going to try here to see whether we can hold you to a point. And then you argue with me the point. I have no problem with that. Your name please.
Steven Bonnell
Steven Bonnell.
(00:44:48)
Mouin Rabbani
And the second, I think, impediment to that view is that long before the UN General Assembly convened to address a question of Palestine, Palestinian and Arab and other leaders as well had been warning ad infinitum that the purpose of the Zionist movement is not just to establish a Jewish state, but to establish an exclusivist Jewish state. And that transfer forced displacement was fundamental to that project. And just responding toā¦. Sorry, was it-
Steven Bonnell
Yeah, Steven.
Mouin Rabbani
ā¦ Bonnell or Donnel?
Steven Bonnell
Bonnell, yeah.
Mouin Rabbani
With a B?
Steven Morelli
Yeah.
(01:19:03)
Steven Bonnell
Well, yeah, can I actually respond to that? Because I think this is emblematic of the entire conversation. I watched a lot of Normās interviews and conversations in preparation for this, and I hear Norm will say this over and over and over again. āI only deal in facts. I donāt deal in hypotheticals. I only deal in facts. I only deal in facts.ā And that seems to be the case, except for when the facts are completely and totally contrary to the particular point youāre trying to push. The idea that Jews wouldāve out of hand rejected any state that had Arabs on it or always had a plan of expulsion is just betrayed by the acceptance of the ā47 partition plan.
Norman Finkelstein
I donāt think you understand politics. Did I just say that there is a chasm that separates your ideology from the limits and constraints imposed by politics and reality?
(01:22:48)
Steven Bonnell
You can say that, but in this case, the facts betray you. There was no Arab acceptance of anything that wouldāve allowed for a Jewish state to exist, number one, and number two, I think that itās entirely possible, given how things happen after a war, that this exact same conflict could have played out and an expulsion wouldāve happened without any ideology at play. There was a people that disagreed on who had territorial rights to a land, there was a massive war afterwards, and then a bunch of their friends invaded after to reinforce the idea that the Jewish people in this case couldnāt have a state. There could have been a transfer regardless.
Norman Finkelstein
Anything could have been, but thatās not what history is about.
(01:24:08)
Norman Finkelstein
Okay. But we have to recognize that from nearly the beginning, for perfectly obvious reasons having nothing to do with antisemitism, anti-Westernism, anti-Europeanism, but because no people that I am aware of would voluntarily cede its country-
Steven Bonnell
Except for all the people that sold land voluntarily.
Norman Finkelstein
You can perfectly understand Native American resistance to Euro-colonialism. You can perfectly well understand it without any anti-Europeanism, anti-whiteism, anti-Christianism. They didnāt want to cede their country to invaders. Thatās completely understandable.
(01:26:55)
Norman Finkelstein
I looked and looked and looked for evidence of this antisemitism as being a chief motor of Arab resistance to Zionism. I didnāt see it.
Steven Borrell
Did he make that claim?
Benny Morris
I donāt remember the word chief. Itās one of the elements.
Steven Bonnell
Yeah. Itās very binary thinking when it comes to-
Norman Finkelstein
Binary?
Steven Borrell
Yes, binary.
Norman Finkelstein
Please, donāt give me this postmodernism ābinaryā.
(01:59:24)
Steven Bonnell
But the problem is youāre saying that Husseini was his influenceā¦ Youāre saying the move [inaudible 01:59:28]-
Norman Finkelstein
I donāt even understand, of all the crimes you want to ascribe to the Palestinian people, trying to blame them directly-indirectly, indirectly, or indirectly, three times the move for the Nazi Holocaust is completely lunatic.
Steven Barelli
Hold on. Wait, heās not blaming them for the Holocaust. Heās saying that from the perspective-
Norman Finkelstein
Of course he-
Benny Morris
No, no, no.
Steven Bonnell
Wait, wait, wait, no, heās saying that from the perspective of Jews in the region, Palestinians wouldāve been part of the-
Norman Finkelstein
Thatās not what heās saying.
Steven Bonnell
That is exactly what he said.
Norman Finkelstein
You have not read him. Iāve read him.
Steven Bonnell
Youāve read him and you donāt understand him.
Norman Finkelstein
Youāve read-
Steven Morelli
Heās right here.
Norman Finkelstein
Believe me, Iām a lot more literate than you, Mr. Barelli.
Steven Bonnell
Iām going to believe the guy that wrote the stuff.
Norman Finkelstein
You read what Wikipedia said.
Steven Weaselly
Thatās great, and you donāt even speak Hebrew and you call yourself an Israeli historian.
Norman Finkelstein
[inaudible 02:00:11].
Steven Bonnell
[inaudible 02:00:10] different grounds.
Mouin Rabbani
If I can just respond to you-
Steven Bonnell
No, no, Iām just saying that there were two tricks-
Norman Finkelstein
You said nothing, as you always do.
(02:16:29)
Norman Finkelstein
850, fine. So I never said that, but then I said, āNo, we donāt know exactly how they were killed.ā But 800 civilians killed, no, 850, no question there. And I also said on repeated occasions, there cannot be any doubt, in my opinion as of now with the available evidence, that Hamas was responsible for significant atrocities, and I made sure to include the plural.
Steven Bonnell
Thereās a lot of tricky language being employed here. Do you think of the 850-
Norman Finkelstein
Thereās nothing tricky. Itās called attaching value to words and not talking like a motormouth. I am very careful about qualifying because thatās what language is about.
(02:39:39)
Steven Bonnell
Can I respond to something relating to that, the Lebanon War? I looked at the book that he got this from and what the quote was from. It sounds cold to say it, but war is tragic and civilians die. There is no war that this has not happened in, in the history of all of humankind. The statement that Israel might take care not to target civilians is not incompatible with a diary entry from someone who said they saw civilians getting killed. I think that sometimes we do a lot of weird games when we talk about international humanitarian law or laws that govern conflict, but we say things like, civilians dying is a war crime, or civilian homes or hospitals getting destroyed is necessarily a war crime, or is necessarily somebody intentionally targeting civilians without making distinctions between military targets or civilian ones.
I think that when we analyze different attacks or when we talk about the conduct of the military, itās important to understand, prospectively from the unit of analysis of the actual military committing the acts, whatās happening and what are the decisions being made rather than just saying retrospectively, āOh, well, a lot of civilians died. Not very many military people died, comparatively speaking, so it must have been war crimes,ā especially when youāve got another side, Iāll fast-forward to Hamas, that intentionally attempts to induce those same civilian numbers, because Hamas is guilty of any war crime that you would potentially accuse. And this is according to the Amnesty International, people that Norm loves to cite, Hamas is guilty of all of these same war crimes, of them failing to take care of their civilian population, of them essentially utilizing human shields to try to fire rockets, free from attacks-
Norman Finkelstein
Essentially?
Steven Bonnell
Essentially, yes. Iām just saying that, essentially, as in terms of how international law defines it and not how Amnesty International defines it. But Amnesty International describes times of human shielding, but they donāt actually apply the correct international legal standard-
Norman Finkelstein
You donāt know whatās the correct international law-
Steven Bonnell
I know absolutely-
Norman Finkelstein
You havenāt a clue-
Steven Barelli
No, I absolutely do-
Norman Finkelstein
You havenāt a clue because you canāt find it on Wikipedia. You canāt find it on Wikipedia-
Steven Borelli
But Iām just sayingā¦ Believe it or not, Norm, the entire Geneva Convention is all on Wikipedia. Itās a wonderful website.
(02:44:31)
Mouin Rabbani
You know better. You know better-
Benny Morris
No, I donāt know better. You donāt know Israeli pilots, thatās the problem-
Norman Finkelstein
Thank God.
Benny Morris
No, you donāt know Israeli pilots-
Norman Finkelstein
I know, thank God.
(02:44:59)
Norman Finkelstein
No, they saw the sides, but letās see the side-
Steven Bonnell
Oh, I know what heās quoting, correct, but youāve lied about this particular instance in the past. Those kids werenāt just on the beaches as often stated in articles. Those kids were literally coming out of a previously identified Hamas compound that they had operated from. They literally-
Norman Finkelstein
Mr. Borelli-
Steven Bonnell
You could Google it, Mr. Finkel-stinker- ??? good one i guess if you're fucking five
Norman Finkelstein
Mr. Borelli, with all due respect, youāre such a fantastic moron, itās terrifying. That wharf was filled with journalists. There were scores of journalists. That was an old fishermanās shack. What are you talking about? Itās so painful to listen to this idiocy-
Steven Bonnell
And to be clear, on the other side, youāre implying that the strike was okayed on the Israeli side where they said, āWeāre just going to kill four Palestinian people today for no reason.ā
Norman Finkelstein
Hey-
Benny Morris
Do you believe that?
Steven Bonnell
Do you believe that? Do you believe that? [inaudible 02:45:57] journalists, do you think that [inaudible 02:46:00]
Norman Finkelstein
Here we go-
Benny Morris
That they would actually kill four children?
Steven Bonnell
He went answer the question-
Norman Finkelstein
Here we go-
Steven Bonnell
He will never answer that question.
Norman Finkelstein
I will answer the question-
Benny Morris
The pilots were out to kill four children-
Norman Finkelstein
I will even answer the moronās questions-
Steven Bonnell
Because that was a strike, that was a drone strike, so that was approved all the way up the chain that weāre going to kill children today. Weāre going to kill Palestinian children today-
Norman Finkelstein
Okay, you want me to answer or do you want your motormouth to go?
(02:47:17)
Norman Finkelstein
Okay. So as you know, along the Gaza perimeter, there was Israelās best-trained snipers. Correct?
Benny Morris
I donāt know best-trained. There was snipers-
Norman Finkelstein
Fine. Okay. All right. Becauseā¦ Hey, laugh. Itās hilarious. This storyās so funny-
Steven Bonnell
Youāre lying. The Great March of Return had aspects of violence to it. Even the UN says it themselves.
Norman Finkelstein
Okay, okay, okay.
Steven Bonnell
But you only collect what the UN says that you like.
Norman Finkelstein
You see the problem, Mr. Morelli, is, you donāt know the English language. You donāt-
Steven Bonnell
I can read from the UN website itself. In regards to the Great March of Return, they said, āWhile the vast majority of protestors have acted in a peaceful manner, during most protests dozens have approached the fence attempting to damage it, burning fires, throwing stones and Molotov cocktails towards Israeli forces, and flying incendiary kites and balloons into Israeli territory. The latter resulted in extensive damage to agricultural land and nature reserves inside Israel and risked the lives of Israeli civilians. Some incidents of shooting and throwing of explosives also reported-ā
Norman Finkelstein
Talk Fast. Talk fast so people think that youāre coherent-
Steven Bonnell
Iām just reading from the UN-
Norman Finkelstein
Yeah, but youāre saying-
Steven Berelli
I know you like them sometimes, only when they agree with you though.
Norman Finkelstein
You got the months wrong. You got the months wrong. Weāre talking about the beginning in March 30th to what-
Steven Farelli
You just described that march as mostly peaceful.
Norman Finkelstein
Okay, allow me to finish. So there were the snipers, okay. Now, you find it so far-fetched. Israelis purposely, deliberately targeting civilians? Thatās such a far-fetched idea. An overwhelmingly nonviolent march. What did the international investigation-
Benny Morris
It wasnāt the march. It was a campaign which went on for months.
Norman Finkelstein
Whatever you want to call it, yeah. What did the UN investigation find? It found-
Benny Morris
Well, he just read it for you.
Norman Finkelstein
I read the report. I donāt read things off of those machines. I read the report. What did it find? Brace yourself. You thought it was so funny, the idea of IDF targeting civilians. It foundā¦ Go look this up on your machine-
Steven Bonnell
I already know what youāre going to say. Youāre going to say it found that only one or two of them were justified killings-
Norman Finkelstein
It targeted children, targeted journalists, targeted medics. And hereās the funniest one of all, itās so hilarious, they targeted disabled people who were 300 meters away from the fence and just standing by trees-
(02:50:37)
Steven Morelli
Thatās fine, but then the second thing is, or thereās two distinctions I want to draw between. I think Benny would say this, I would say this. Iām sure, undoubtedly, there have been cases where IDF soldiers, for no good reason, have targeted and killed Palestinians that they should not have done, that would be prosecutable as war crimes as defined by the [inaudible 02:50:56]-
Benny Morris
And some have been prosecuted.
Steven Bonnell
And Iām absolutely sure-
Norman Finkelstein
According to you and your book, practically none.
Steven Botulism
Iām sure that we would all agree for soldiers that that happens, but I think that itās important that when we talk about military strikes or we talk about things especially involving bombings or drone attacks, these are things that are signed off by multiple different layers of command, by multiple people involved in an operation, including intelligence gathering, including weaponeering, and they also have typically lawyers involved. When you make the claim that an IDF soldier shot a Palestinian, those three people, the three hostages that came up with white flags, that something horrible happened, I think thatās a fair statement to make and I think a lot of criticism is deserved, but when you make the statement that four children were killed by a strike, the claim that youāre making-
Norman Finkelstein
Deliberately, yeah.
Steven Bonnell
The claim that youāre making is that multiple levels of the IDF signed off-
Norman Finkelstein
I have no idea what [inaudible 02:51:47]-
Steven Bonnell
Thatās great if you donāt understand the process, then let me educate you.
Norman Finkelstein
You donāt understand the process.
Steven Bonnell
I do understand the process, Iām telling you. Iām trying to explain to you right now.
Norman Finkelstein
Really? Youāre in the IDF?
Steven Bonnell
No, itās basic-
Norman Finkelstein
Youāre studying the IDF.
Steven Bonnell
You can ask anybody that talks about-
Norman Finkelstein
Aside from Wikipedia, can you tell me what your knowledge of the IDF is?
Steven Bonnell
You can talk to people who work in the military-
Norman Finkelstein
Whatās your knowledge of the IDF?
Steven Bonnell
Your audience can look this up. Do you think that bombing and strikes are decided by one person in the field? Do you think one person-
Mouin Rabbani
Can I respond to that?
Steven Bonnell
[inaudible 02:52:10] on a drone strike-
Benny Morris
[inaudible 02:52:11] a pilot doesnāt do it on his own.
Mouin Rabbani
Can I respond-
Steven Barelli
[inaudible 02:52:14] have entire apparatuses that are designed to figure out how to strike and who to strike, so when you say that four children are targeted, youāre saying that a whole apparatus that tries to murder-
Norman Finkelstein
You made my argument better than me-
Steven Bonnell
ā¦ Poor Palestinian children.
Norman Finkelstein
You made my argument better than me.
Steven Morelli
Which is a ridiculous argument.
Norman Finkelstein
Oh, really? Itās impossible at the command level, but you said that they couldnāt have done it at the bottom if it werenāt also at the top.
Steven Bonelli
You donāt understand the strength of the claim that youāre making. Youāre saying that from a top down level, that lawyers, multiple commanders, intelligence, all these people signed off-
Norman Finkelstein
Mr. Bonnell, do not tell me what I donāt understand.
Steven Bonnell
ā¦ On killing poor Palestinians, children.
Norman Finkelstein
Itās true, I donāt spend my nights on Wikipedia. I read books. I admit that as a-
Steven Bonnell
Thatās a waste of time, by the way. Youāre wasting time [inaudible 02:52:55].
Norman Finkelstein
I know, books are a waste of time. With all due regard, theyāre-
Steven Bonnell
Well, according to you they are. The only thing you take from them are two or three quotes that you use to push people around.
Norman Finkelstein
I completely respect the factā¦ And Iāll say it on the air, as much as I find totally disgusting whatās come of your politics, a lot of the books are excellent, and Iāll even tell you because Iām not afraid of saying it, whenever I have to check on the basic fact, the equivalent of going to the Britannica, I go to your books. I know you got a lot of the facts right.
Lex Fridman
Benny Morrisā books for the listener.
Norman Finkelstein
I would never say books are a waste of time and itās regrettable to you that you got strapped with a partner who thinks that all the wisdom-
(02:57:07)
Benny Morris
You are saying that they deliberately targeted families. If Israel wanted to kill civilians in Gaza, they could have killed 500,000 by now with the number of strikes theyāve done and the fact that theyāve only killed a certain small number [inaudible 02:57:22]-
Mouin Rabbani
30,000 is a small number?
Benny Morris
Small number in proportion-
Mouin Rabbani
You consider 30,000 a small number?
Benny Morris
Small number in proportion over four months probably is an indication that-
Norman Finkelstein
12,000 children is only.
Benny Morris
ā¦ Is targeted and that there are Hamas targets in these places.
Norman Finkelstein
12,000 children is only, and if thatās the case, why is it-
Benny Morris
Did I use the word only?
Norman Finkelstein
Yeah, you said only. Professor Morris, hereās a question for you, if we take every combat zone in the world for the past three years, every combat zone in the world-
Benny Morris
In Vietnam, the Americans killed 1 million people.
Mouin Rabbani
Well, the [inaudible 02:57:58] killed 40 million.
Norman Finkelstein
I was in the anti-war movement, so donāt strap me-
Benny Morris
The Americans killed 1 million people in Vietnam.
Norman Finkelstein
Fine, and 30 million Russians were killed during World War II, so everything else is irrelevant.
(02:58:15)
Norman Finkelstein
Professor Morris, hereās a question, itās very perplexing. If you take every combat zone in the world for the past three years and you multiply the number of children killed by four, every combat zone in the world, you get Gaza. So when you say-
Steven Bonnell
What is that supposed to prove?
Norman Finkelstein
Iām going to tell youā¦ Just shut up
Benny Morris
Firstly, youāre lying on Hamas numbers.
Norman Finkelstein
No, Iām not lying [inaudible 02:58:44]-
Benny Morris
Hamas numbers are not necessarily true.
Norman Finkelstein
ā¦ The numbers that everybody elseā¦ Iām lying in the numbers [inaudible 02:58:47]-
Steven Bonnell
Even if we take the numbers though, what does that prove?
Benny Morris
Those are Hamas numbers, which may not be true. They could invent anything because you know that they are a mendacious organization.
Norman Finkelstein
I know mendacious, believe me-
Benny Morris
You like the word mendacious?
Norman Finkelstein
Mendacious as in the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs. So hereās the thing, you say they could have killed 500,000, but they only killed, only, thatās your words, they only killed 30,000.
Benny Morris
You believe that they deliberately target civilians, they wouldāve killed many, many more. The fact is that they donāt deliberately target civilians.
Norman Finkelstein
Professor Morris, for [inaudible 02:59:24]-
Benny Morris
And you donāt understand Israeli society.
Norman Finkelstein
I donāt want to understand Israeli society.
Benny Morris
You donāt want the truth.
Norman Finkelstein
I donāt want to. I donāt want to get inside their heads.
Benny Morris
Thatās the problem.
Steven Bonnell
[inaudible 02:59:33].
Norman Finkelstein
90%-
Benny Morris
A good historian tries to get into the heads of-
Norman Finkelstein
Thereās a limit.
Benny Morris
ā¦ The various protagonists.
Norman Finkelstein
Thereās a limit.
Benny Morris
A good historian does.
Norman Finkelstein
When 90% of Israelis think that Israelās using enough or too little force in Gaza, I donāt want to get inside that head. 40% think that Israel is using insufficient force in Gaza. I donāt want to get inside that head. I donāt want to get inside the head of people who think theyāre using insufficient force against the population, half of which is children. I donāt want to get inside that head, but hereās the point, because your partner wants to know the point. You donāt understand political constraints. One of your ministers said, āLetās drop an atomic bomb on Gaza.ā
Benny Morris
You think he really meant that?
Mouin Rabbani
He said it three times.
Benny Morris
No, no, no, it was said in a sort of a very questionable way. He didnāt say they should drop an atomic bomb.
Mouin Rabbani
He said it the day after the ICJ met.
Benny Morris
This minister is a messianic idiot, but he didnāt say drop an atomic bomb [inaudible 03:00:43].
Mouin Rabbani
He said it [inaudible 03:00:44].
Norman Finkelstein
None other Israelās chief historian, the justifiably famed Benny Morris, thinks we should be dropping nuclear weapons on Iran.
Norman Finkelstein
None other Israelās chief historian, the justifiably famed Benny Morris, thinks we should be dropping nuclear weapons on Iran.
Benny Morris
Iran, its leaders for years have said, āWe should destroy Israel.ā Do you agree with that? Theyāve said, āWe should destroy Israel. Israel must be destroyed.ā Is that correct? This is what the Iranian leaders have been saying since Khomeini.
Norman Finkelstein
I would say Iranian leaders have sent mixed messages.
Benny Morris
But some of them have said, including Khamenei-
Norman Finkelstein
If you donāt know the evidence, why are you laughing?
Steven Bonnell
The slightest skepticism, itās very funny.
Norman Finkelstein
Itās funny because-
Steven Bonnell
Iran that supports Hezbollah and the Houthis and Hamas, maybe they want Israel destroyed.
Norman Finkelstein
Brace yourself to the extent that the Houthis are trying to stop the genocide in Gaza, I support-
Steven Bonnell
[inaudible 03:01:37] ships. I know I selectively support international law when it agrees with you and then when it doesnāt, you decide to throw international law to the wind.
Benny Morris
Thereās no genocide in Gaza.
Norman Finkelstein
If you like [inaudible 03:01:46]-
(03:07:25)
Mouin Rabbani
For some reason, you donāt have a problem with people being pro-Israeli at the time of this, but if they support Palestiniansā right to life or self-determination, they get demonized and de-legitimized as pro-Hamas?
Benny Morris
They supported an organization which murdered 1,200 people deliberately. Thatās my problem.
Mouin Rabbani
But supporting a state that has murdered 30,000 [inaudible 03:\07:45]-
Benny Morris
But they havenāt because these are 30,000 are basically human shields to get by the Hamas, in which the Hamas wanted killed. They wanted them killed. Hamas wanted these people killed.
Mouin Rabbani
Sure, if I could just get-
Benny Morris
You donāt think they wanted them killed?
Mouin Rabbani
No, I donāt.
Benny Morris
They didnāt provide them with shelters. They build tunnels for their fighters, but not one shelter for their own civilians.
(03:08:49)
Mouin Rabbani
So, the reason I raised the South African application is twofold. Hamas or no Hamas, itās exceptionally detailed on the question of intent. And secondly, when the International Court of Justice issues a ruling, individual justices have the right can give their own opinion. And I found the German one to be the most interesting on this specific question because he was basically saying that he didnāt think South Africa presented a persuasive case, but he said their section on intent was so overpowering that he felt he was left with no choice but to vote with the majority. So, I think that answers the intent part of your question.
Steven Morelli
So, for the ICJ case that South Africa has brought, I think thereās a couple of things that need to be mentioned. One is, and I saw you two talk at length about this, the plausibility standard is incredibly low. The only thing weāre looking for is a basic presentation of facts that make it conceivable, possible that-
Mouin Rabbani
Plausible.
Steven Bonnell
Plausible, which legally, this is obviously below criminal conviction, below-
Mouin Rabbani
Yes, of course. Think of it as an indictment.
Steven Barelli
Sure, possibly, maybe even a lower level than even an indictment, so plausibility is an incredibly low standard, number one. Number two, if you actually go through and you read the complaint that South Africa filed, I would say that if you go through the quotes and you even follow through to the source of the quotes, the misrepresentation that South Africa does in their case about all of these horrendous quotes, in my opinion, borders on criminal.
Mouin Rabbani
16 ICJ judges disagree.
Steven Bonnell
Thatās fine if 16 ICJ judges disagree, but Iām going to give-
Norman Finkelstein
They must be awfully incompetent.
Steven Bonnell
They could be.
Norman Finkelstein
Even the American judge, she must have been awful incompetent if she was unable to see the misrepresentations that Mr. Bonnell based on his Wikipedia entry was able to find.
Steven Bonnell
So, this is based on the official ICJ report that was released. Iām not sure if you read the entire thing.
Norman Finkelstein
I read every aspect.
Steven Morelli
Did you go through and actually identify any of the sources of underlying quotes?
Norman Finkelstein
Actually, brace yourself for this and Mouin could confirm it, Yaniv Kogan, an Israeli, and Jamie Stern-Weiner, a half Israeli, they checked every single quote in the Hebrew original and Yaniv Kogan, love the guy, he has terrifying powers of concentration, he checked every single quote. Is that correct, Mouin?
Mouin Rabbani
Mm-hmm.
Norman Finkelstein
And Jamie checked every single quote in the English, in the context, and where there were any contextual questions they told us.
Mouin Rabbani
I think they found one.
Norman Finkelstein
Yeah, I think they found one. So, I do not believe that those 15 judgesā¦ It was 15 to two?
Mouin Rabbani
16 to two, I think.
Norman Finkelstein
There are 15 in the court plus two, so itās 17, so itās 15 to two. I donāt think those 15 judges were incompetent and I certainly donāt believe the president of the court, an American, would allow herself to be duped.
(03:16:00)
Norman Finkelstein
I read the report. To tell you the truth, I followed very closely everything thatās been happening to October 7th, I was mesmerized. I couldnāt believe the comprehensiveness of that particular report. Number two, there are two quite respected judgesā¦ Excuse me, there were two quite respected experts of international law sitting on the South African panel, John Dugard and Vaughan Lowe. Vaughan Lowe, as you might know, he argued the war case in 2004 before the International Court of Justice. Now, they were alleging genocide, which in their view means the evidence in their mindsā¦
We are not yet at the court. The evidence in their minds compels the conclusion that genocide is being committed. I am willing, because I happen to know Mr. Dugard personally, and I have corresponded with Vaughan Lowe, Iāve heard their claim, Iāve read the report. I would say they make a very strong case, but letās agree plausible. Now, hereās a question, if somebody qualifies for an Olympic team, letās say a regional person qualifies for an Olympic team, it doesnāt mean theyāre going to be on the Olympic team, it doesnāt mean theyāre going to win a gold medal, a silver medal, or a bronze medal-
Benny Morris
But they can swim, thatās what youāre saying.
Norman Finkelstein
No, I would say thatās a very high bar-
Benny Morris
Youāre saying they can swim.
Norman Finkelstein
ā¦ To even qualify.
Mouin Rabbani
They can swim well enough to have a realistic prospect at winning a medal.
Norman Finkelstein
So, the even make it to plausible-
Steven Bumblebee
That is not true. That is not what plausible means. Itās absolutely not. Youāre dead wrong.
Norman Finkelstein
Mr. Berelli, please donāt teach me about the English language.
Steven Bonnell
So, the declaration judge [inaudible 03:17:53]-
Norman Finkelstein
I said plausibility is the same concept as qualifying.
Steven Bonnell
The court is not asked at this present phase of the proceedings to determine whether South Africaās allegations of genocide are well-founded. Theyāre not even well-founded. You said that plausible was a high standard, itās absolutely not. Itās a misrepresentation of the strength of the case against Israel, just like the majority of the quotes they have in this case are. And also you said it was an extremely well-founded case. They spent like one-fourth of all the quotations, some even pulled from the Goldstone Report, that actually deal with the intent part, which is, by the way, I donāt know if you used the phrase dolus specialis, that the intentional part of genocide-
Mouin Rabbani
I donāt know that term.
Steven Bonnell
I think itās called dolus specialis, itās the most important part of genocide, which is proving it is a highly special intent to commit genocide. Itās possible that Israel could-
Norman Finkelstein
Thatās [foreign language 03:18:43].
Steven Bonnell
Yes, I understand the state of mind, but for genocide, itās called dolus specialis. Itās a highly special intent. Did you read the case?
Norman Finkelstein
Yeah.
Steven Borelli
It is a highly special intent [inaudible 03:18:56]-
Norman Finkelstein
Mr. Berelli, Iām going to ask you again-
Steven Farelli
Yes.
Norman Finkelstein
ā¦ Please stop displaying your imbecility.
Steven Farelli
Iām sorry if you think the declaration of the judge is imbecility.
Norman Finkelstein
Donāt put on public display that you are a moron. At least have the self-possession to shut up. Did I read the case?
Steven Morelli
Iām comfortable putting my display on camera if youāre comfortable putting yours in books.
Norman Finkelstein
Mr. Berelli, I read the case around four times. I read all of the majority opinion, the declarations, I read our own Barackās declaration [inaudible 03:19:27]-
(03:21:41)
Benny Morris
Remember what I just said, they wonāt rule there was genocide. Remember what I said.
Steven Bonnell
Also, I recommend people actually read the case and follow through a lot of the quotes that they just donāt show genocidal intent.
Norman Finkelstein
Mr. Berelli, brace yourself.
(03:26:14)
Steven Bonnell
But even at that, weāre probably not going to agree. Heās going to sayā¦ You could write that. I can predict the whole line. Heās going to say from ā93 to ā99, heās going to say, Israel didnāt adhere to the Oslo courts ever, settlement expansion continued, raids happened into the West Bank, that there was never a legitimateā¦ That Netanyahu came in and violated the Y Memorandum, the transference. Heās going to say all of this and heās not going to bring up anything of the Palestinian side. And then for Camp David, heās going to say that yeah, that Arafat was trying, that the maps and the territorial exchange wasnāt good enough, that they were asking Palestinians to make all the concessions, that Israel wouldāve made-
Lex Fridman
Well, lay it all out. Lay it out.
Benny Morris
You do talk quickly.
Steven Bonnell
Yeah, I know. Yeah.
(03:54:35)
Norman Finkelstein
According to the International Court of Justice, the designated unit for Palestinian self-determination, and they deny any right whatsoever on the right of return. I donāt want to go into the details now. The maximum formal offer was by Ehud Omar in 2008. He offered 5,000 refugees could return under what was called family reunification, 5,000, in the course of five years, and no recognition of any Israeli responsibility.
So if you use as the baseline what the UN General Assembly has said and what the International Court of Justice has said, if you use that baseline, international law, by that baseline, all the concessions came from the Palestinian side. Every single concession came from the Palestinian side. None came from the Israeli side. They may have accepted less than what they wanted, but it was still beyond what international law allocated to them. Now you say-
Mouin Rabbani
Allocated to the Palestinians.
Norman Finkelstein
Allocated to Palestinians, yes. Thank you for the clarification. Now about Arafat, like the Mufti, never liked the guy. I think that was one of the only disagreements Mouin and I had. When Arafat passed, you were a little sentimental. I was not. I never liked the guy. But politics, you donāt have to like the guy. There was no question. Nobody argues it that whenever the negotiation started up, the Palestinians just kept saying the same things.
Benny Morris
No.
Norman Finkelstein
No.
Benny Morris
They kept saying no.
Norman Finkelstein
No. Professor Morris, with due respect, incorrect. They kept saying, āInternational legitimacy, international law, UN resolutions.ā They said, āWe already gave you what the law required. We gave that in 1988, November 1988, and then ratified again at Oslo in 1993.ā And they said, āNow we want what was promised us under international law.ā And that was the one point where everybody on the other side agreed. Clinton, donāt talk to me about international law. Livni during the Olmert administration. She said, āI studied international law. I donāt believe in international law.ā Every single member on the other side, they didnāt want to hear from international law. And to my thinking that that is the only reasonable baseline for trying to resolve the conflict. And Israel has, along with the US-
Benny Morris
When has international law been relevant to any conflict basically in the world?
Norman Finkelstein
Thatās why-
Benny Morris
Over the last 150 years.
Norman Finkelstein
Thatās why the Palestinians have to recognize Israel because thatās international law.
Benny Morris
But international law is-
Norman Finkelstein
[inaudible 03:58:00] have to recognize Israel because thatās international law.
Benny Morris
No, but international law is meaningless. oh my god, he admit it!
(04:05:13)
Norman Finkelstein
Professor Morris. Professor Morris.
Mouin Rabbani
Come on.
Benny Morris
Thatās what Israelis want.
Norman Finkelstein
Professor Morris.
Benny Morris
They want a change of psyche among the Palestinians.
Norman Finkelstein
Mouin has an interesting-
Benny Morris
If that doesnāt happen, there wonāt be a Palestinian state. There just wonāt be.
Norman Finkelstein
Mouin has an interesting point.
Benny Morris
Forget international law and all the UN resolutions.
Norman Finkelstein
I know you want to forget it just like you want to forget the genocide charge. I know you want to forget that.
(04:16:33)
Steven Bonnell
The problem is, as Benny said, yeah, itās difficult because Hamas enjoys so much widespread support amongst the Palestinian people. I think thatā¦ Well, I donāt know. Thereās opinions on whether democracy or pushing them towards elections was the right or wrong idea. But with an Islamic fundamentalist government for Hamas, I donāt know if a negotiation with Israel ever happens there.
And then when the international pressure is always ā67 borders, infinite right of return for refugees, and a total withdrawal of Israel from all these lands to even start negotiations, I just donāt see, realistically, on the Palestinian side, no negotiations are ever going to start in a place that Israelās willing to accept.
Mouin Rabbani
If you want to dismiss international law, thatās fine, but then you have to do it consistently. You canāt set standards for the Palestinians but reject applying those standards to Israel. If weāre going to have the law of the jungle, then we can all be beasts and not only some of us. So itās either that or you have certain agreed standards that are intended to regulate our conduct, all of our conduct, not just some of us. So thatās a fundamental-
Steven Bonnell
[inaudible 04:17:46] Iām saying to abandon?
Mouin Rabbani
Well, youāre saying international law and the millionth UN resolution, youāre being very dismissive about all these things.
Steven Morelli
Well, Iām saying [inaudible 04:17:54]-
Mouin Rabbani
And thatās fine.
Steven Bonnell
Iām not being dismissive.
Mouin Rabbani
But then you have to be dismissive across the board.
Steven Bonnell
Iām just saying, for instance, 242, that was a Chapter VI resolution. Thatās non-binding. But 242 [inaudible 04:18:01]-
Mouin Rabbani
Itās binding.
Steven Bonnell
Itās absolutely not binding.
Mouin Rabbani
Itās binding.
Norman Finkelstein
What is binding? Do you know anything about how the UN system works?
Steven Bonnell
If you read the language of the resolution, binding is typically if it commits you to upholding a particular international law or if it establishes [inaudible 04:18:13].
Norman Finkelstein
What is Chapter VI? You just throw out words. You hear binding, not binding.
(04:18:31)
Mouin Rabbani
Yeah, but hold on. Hold on. Every United Nations Security Council resolution, irrespective of under which chapter it was adopted, is, by definition, binding. Binding not only on the members of the Security Council but on every member state of the UN. Read the UN Charter. Itās black and white.
Steven Bonnell
Sure. People can look that up [inaudible 04:18:53]-
Mouin Rabbani
Yes.
Steven Bonnell
ā¦ but the language even of 242 is kept intentionally vague such that it doesnāt actually provide, again, the final [inaudible 04:18:59]-
Mouin Rabbani
Itās actually not that vague-
Steven Bonnell
Itās incredibly vague.
Mouin Rabbani
ā¦ because the term āland for peaceā originates in 242. The idea is-
Steven Bonnell
Sure, but the part about territorial acquisition and Israelās need to give it up was kept vague. Thatās why, in ā79, Israel thought that they fulfilled their obligations under 242 [inaudible 04:19:13]-
Mouin Rabbani
You asked a separate question.
Norman Finkelstein
Allow me points of information. The first principle in UN Resolution 242 is that the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by force-
Steven Bonnell
Which is meaningless.
Norman Finkelstein
It may be meaningless to you, Mr. Bonnell.
Steven Bonnell
It was meaningless to everyone in the region.
Norman Finkelstein
Okay. Mr. Bonnell, that principle was adopted by the Friendly Nations Resolution, the UN General Assembly in 1970. That resolution was then reiterated in the International Court of Justice ruling, advisory opinion in 2004. That was the basis of the coalition against Iraq when it acquired Kuwait and then declared it a province of Kuwait.
(04:20:17)
Norman Finkelstein
Itās called, under international law, jus cogens or peremptory norms of international law, the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war. That is not controversial. Itās not vague. You couldnāt put it more succinctly. You cannot acquire territory by force under international law.
Steven Weaselly
On the West Bank before ā67, who owned the Gaza Strip before ā67?
Norman Finkelstein
Mr. Bonnell, donāt change the subject. If you donāt know what youāre talking about-
Steven Bonnell
Itās not about [inaudible 04:20:50]-
Norman Finkelstein
ā¦ at least have the humility-
Steven Borrell
How close has 242-
Norman Finkelstein
You talk about Chapter VI-
Steven Bonnell
How close has 242 gotten-
Norman Finkelstein
You donāt know Chapter VI-
Steven Bonnell
How close has 242 gotten the Palestinians to peace?
Norman Finkelstein
You donāt know Chapter VI from tweet five. You have no idea what youāre talking about. Itās just so embarrassing. At least have some humility. Between us who have read maybe 10,000 books on the topic and youāve read two Wikipedia entries and you start talking about Chapter VI. Do you know what Chapter VII is?
Steven Bonnell
Answer me. Answer the question.
Norman Finkelstein
Do you know what Chapter VII is?
Steven Beelzebub
Norm, answer the question. How close has 242 gotten the Palestinians to a state?
Mouin Rabbani
Let me ask you this.
Steven Bonnell
How close has the 2004 advisory opinion gotten the West Bank settlement [inaudible 04:21:26]?
Mouin Rabbani
Whatās your alternative?
Steven Bonnell
The alternative is not this, whatever this making money off the conflict is. The actual alternative-
Norman Finkelstein
[inaudible 04:21:33] making money-
Steven Wikipedia
The actual alternative-
Norman Finkelstein
Destiny should talk about making money off of idiocy.
Steven Borelli
Yes. Yeah, youāre a media [inaudible 04:21:37] when you go and talk to 50 million different people about your awesome [inaudible 04:21:40].
Benny Morris
But he has a point, though.
Norman Finkelstein
What point?
Steven Morelli
But the issue is you have to negotiate-
Benny Morris
All these resolutions have gotten the Palestinians no closer to a state.
Steven Farelli
Nothing.
Norman Finkelstein
Yeah, but hold on. Because they havenāt been enforced because of the US veto.
Benny Morris
Theyāre not going to be enforced.
Norman Finkelstein
Wait, wait, wait, wait.
Benny Morris
Theyāve gotten nowhere-
Mouin Rabbani
If I may, if I may-
Steven Borelli
[inaudible 04:21:52].
Norman Finkelstein
You know what? You know what? Professor Morris-
Steven Bonnell
[inaudible 04:21:58] about the case for genocide.
Norman Finkelstein
Professor Morris, because of your logic, and Iām not disputing it, thatās why October 7th happened.
Benny Morris
Oh my God.
Norman Finkelstein
Because there was no options left for those people. Exactly what Mouin said.
Benny Morris
And now what options are left? After October 7th-
Steven Bonnell
This has been the Palestinian mentality for 60 years.
Benny Morris
ā¦ whatās the options left?
Steven Berelli
The only option is conflict.
Norman Finkelstein
Listen to this.
Steven Bonnell
The only option is combat.
Norman Finkelstein
Mr. Bonnell is now an expert on Palestinian mentality.
Mouin Rabbani
Hold on. Youāre contradicting yourself.
Norman Finkelstein
You know as much about Palestinian politics as you know about Chapter V.
Steven Borelli
I only deal with facts. I only deal with facts. Egypt didnāt find it necessary to-
Norman Finkelstein
Tell me about Chapter V.
Steven Bonnell
Egypt didnāt find it necessary-
Norman Finkelstein
Tell me about Chapter V.
Steven Bonnell
ā¦ to negotiate peace [inaudible 04:22:34] the Palestinians. Jordan didnāt find it necessary to negotiate peace [inaudible 04:22:36] the Palestinians.
Mouin Rabbani
Hey, if I may-
Steven Barelli
The Abraham Accords [inaudible 04:22:37] the Palestinians-
Norman Finkelstein
Talk faster, faster, faster, faster.
Steven Bonnell
ā¦ despite all of the international law-
Lex Fridman
Everybody, Mouin.
Norman Finkelstein
Faster.
(04:23:28)
Steven Bonnell
You can quote Arafat talking about how heās lying and heās just going to useā¦ In ā94 and ā95 when heās making trips around the world, how he just wanted [inaudible 04:23:35] starting ground.
Norman Finkelstein
Talk faster. Talk faster.
Steven Borelli
Iām sorry. I canāt talk slow. You can watch [inaudible 04:23:38] and slow it down to 0.5 speed if you donāt understand what Iām saying.
Norman Finkelstein
Faster. Faster.
Mouin Rabbani
Thereās a very lengthy history-
Norman Finkelstein
Motor mouth.
Mouin Rabbani
ā¦ of Israeli-Palestinian negotiations. You want to deny that those negotiations took place.
Steven Bonnell
Where it feels like there was a good-faith effort-
Norman Finkelstein
What it feels like.
Steven Farelli
Where there was a good-faith effort-
Norman Finkelstein
Feels like.
Steven Bonnell
Where there was a good-faith effort-
Norman Finkelstein
We have a written record.
Steven Bonnell
With all due respect-
Norman Finkelstein
We have a written record, Mr. Bonnell.
Steven Bonnell
Mr. Pop History, you canāt even read the written records. I donāt know why youāre referring to them. Okay.
Norman Finkelstein
Excuse me? I just said there are 15,000 pages on Annapolis.
Steven Morelli
And Iām sure you cherry-picked your favorite quotes from all of them. Okay.
Norman Finkelstein
I donāt cherry-pick.
Steven Farelli
Thatās great. Thatās great.
Norman Finkelstein
Mr. Bonnell, at least I had a quote to cherry-pick.
Steven Bonnell
Thatās great. [inaudible 04:24:12].
Norman Finkelstein
All you have is Wikipedia.
Steven Bonnell
I gave you quotes.
Norman Finkelstein
All you have is Wikipedia.
CONTINUED IN COMMENT BELOW
Steven Borelli
But Iām just sayingā¦ Believe it or not, Norm, the entire Geneva Convention is all on Wikipedia. Itās a wonderful website.
no notes
at one point Norm tells him something to the effect of āMr Bonerelli, between the 3 of us, weāve read 10000 books and youāve read two pages on wiki pediaā (he says it like two separate words - the man apparently refuses to use a computer). I did not expect him to nail
to the post this fucking hard and fast.I saw some dorks on reddit being like āBah such gatekeepingā about this comment. Which, like, do people really think that ādebate about high level geo-political conflictā is not a gate which should be kept?
itās the old saying āremain silent and be thought a fool or speak and forever remove all doubt.ā self-awareness is a skill and calling someone out for lacking it isnāt gatekeeping to begin with. like if the topic were related to Bonercelliās lived experience, this would be gatekeeping - but itās not. heās pontificating about a genocide thousands of miles away from where he lives.
Steven Bonnell: No, no, Iām just saying that there were two tricks-
Norman Finkelstein: You said nothing, as you always do.
Benny Morris: No, you donāt know Israeli pilots-
Norman Finkelstein: I know, thank God.
FUCKING GET EM NORM
the complete open lack of respect he has for destiny especially is phenomenal. he really has gone full joker huhMr. Borelli, with all due respect, youāre such a fantastic moron, itās terrifying.
Iām fucking dying itās perfect
The beginning of the debate was super weird.
I was surprised by the historical framing that happens. The Israeli side just takes as a given that the Zionists were owed a piece of Palestinian land and that the Palestinians should have accepted it. The focus is then over how either side of the conflict didnāt respect the original proposition or couldnāt be reasoned with.
But likeā¦ They totally ignore the fact that Palestinians would OBVIOUSLY not be obligated to carve up their land and hand it to global imperialists. This pretty foundational and clear argument isnāt mentioned until like 3 hours into the debate.
It reminds me of how skewed the framing is. Like when Normās partner says, āIāve never, in my decades of experience, seen an interviewer ask ādo you condemn Israelās actions?āā
The fact that Density has not been beaten to within an inch of his life is an indictment of the entire USAmerican left.
Do better.
When is he next coming to Ohio?
This is the mightiest of effort posts
The formatting must have taken forever.
o7
I scripted it. The menial part was getting the excerpts and coding it. Here's the python code.
import os import re import random def debate(file_path): finkelsteinisms = { "Borelli", "Barelli", "Morelli", "Berelli", "Borrell", "Farelli", } absurdisms = { "Versace", "Bumblebee", "Bartholomew", "Penalty", "Bigamy", "Beetlejuice", "Basketball", "Beelzebub", "Botulism", "Botany", "Fealty", "Weaselly", "Bitchass", "Bonelli", "Wikipedia", "Zestily" } def process_content(content): sections = content.strip().split("\n\n") processed_sections = [] for section in sections: lines = section.strip().split("\n") processed_lines = [] first_timecode_found = False for line in lines: match = re.match( r"(\w+ \w+)? ?\((\d{2}:\d{2}:\d{2})\)\s*(.*)", line.strip() ) if match: speaker, timecode, message = match.groups() if speaker: if "Bonnell" in speaker and random.randint(1, 4) == 1: if random.randint(1, 4) == 1: mister_x = random.choice(list(absurdisms)) else: mister_x = random.choice(list(finkelsteinisms)) speaker = speaker.replace("Bonnell", mister_x) if not first_timecode_found: processed_line = f"`({timecode})` \n**{speaker}** \n{message.strip()}\n" first_timecode_found = True else: processed_line = f"**{speaker}** \n{message.strip()}\n" else: processed_line = f"\n{message.strip()}\n" processed_lines.append(processed_line) else: processed_lines.append(line) processed_section = "\n".join(processed_lines) processed_sections.append(processed_section) return "\n_______________\n\n".join(processed_sections) dir_name, base_name = os.path.split(file_path) name_part = os.path.splitext(base_name)[0] new_file = os.path.join(dir_name, f"{name_part}_updated.md") with open(file_path, "r", encoding="utf-8") as file: content = file.read() formatted_content = process_content(content) with open(new_file, "w", encoding="utf-8") as file: file.write(formatted_content)Hereās what it looked like preprocess pretty much:
I have been meaning to do that āAutomate The Boring Stuff With Pythonā class for a couple years now, but this is the kinda exciting-boring shit I didnāt know I could do with it. Formatting all of that by hand would have taken me forever, and it is thrilling to me to know that you didnāt do it that way.
This is awesome. You are awesome. Thanks for the inspiration ā¤ļø
Hell yeah
(but in a respectful way)Lmao
Patelli: The UN says āthe vast majorityā of protestors were peaceful
Piranelli, seconds later: According to the UN, the protestors were not mostly peaceful
Steven Botulism
Steven Bumblebee
Steven Weaselly
Steven Beetlejuice
thank you for the post, comrade
ĀÆ\(ć)/ĀÆ
import os import re import random def debate(file_path): finkelsteinisms = { "Borelli", "Barelli", "Morelli", "Berelli", "Borrell", "Farelli", } absurdisms = { "Versace", "Bumblebee", "Bartholomew", "Penalty", "Bigamy", "Beetlejuice", "Basketball", "Beelzebub", "Botulism", "Botany", "Fealty", "Weaselly", "Bitchass", "Bonelli", "Wikipedia", "Zestily" } def process_content(content): sections = content.strip().split("\n\n") processed_sections = [] for section in sections: lines = section.strip().split("\n") processed_lines = [] first_timecode_found = False for line in lines: match = re.match( r"(\w+ \w+)? ?\((\d{2}:\d{2}:\d{2})\)\s*(.*)", line.strip() ) if match: speaker, timecode, message = match.groups() if speaker: if "Bonnell" in speaker and random.randint(1, 4) == 1: if random.randint(1, 4) == 1: mister_x = random.choice(list(absurdisms)) else: mister_x = random.choice(list(finkelsteinisms)) speaker = speaker.replace("Bonnell", mister_x) if not first_timecode_found: processed_line = f"`({timecode})` \n**{speaker}** \n{message.strip()}\n" first_timecode_found = True else: processed_line = f"**{speaker}** \n{message.strip()}\n" else: processed_line = f"\n{message.strip()}\n" processed_lines.append(processed_line) else: processed_lines.append(line) processed_section = "\n".join(processed_lines) processed_sections.append(processed_section) return "\n_______________\n\n".join(processed_sections) dir_name, base_name = os.path.split(file_path) name_part = os.path.splitext(base_name)[0] new_file = os.path.join(dir_name, f"{name_part}_updated.md") with open(file_path, "r", encoding="utf-8") as file: content = file.read() formatted_content = process_content(content) with open(new_file, "w", encoding="utf-8") as file: file.write(formatted_content)
Norman Finkelstein Mr. Berelli, Iām going to ask you again-
Steven Farelli Yes.
Norman Finkelstein ā¦ Please stop displaying your imbecility.
Steven Farelli Iām sorry if you think the declaration of the judge is imbecility.
Norman Finkelstein Donāt put on public display that you are a moron. At least have the self-possession to shut up.
This guy blows so much empty air, no wonder he thought his name was Bernoulli
comrade iām sorry you had to be exposed to this fucking cognitohazard but also thank you for exposing yourself to it so i donāt have to watch/read the whole thing
I have a high school friend whoās into Destiny and his political opinions are the most annoying āIām going to take the side of whatever the status quo is so I donāt have to feel the stress of arguing for anything without a base of power behind itā-shit most of the time so Iām supernaturally compulsed to dunk on him when his debate daddy wanders into territory I can actually critique coherently. Basically I rationalized my reading of it as a public service, thanks anyways
āIām going to take the side of whatever the status quo is so I donāt have to feel the stress of arguing for anything without a base of power behind itā
I love this, so succinct
Yeah, there is no way I could ever watch this. They should probably set rules on who is allowed to talk over who, at the very least.
Norm:
There is no hope
Real
ā> 
Which israeli minister spoke about dropping an atomic bomb the day after the icj ruling?
It was referenced here
Thank you for transcribing this
Copied from Lex Fridmanās transcription (linked in post). I just was thinking if people didnāt want to read the whole thing Iād give them what they came for.
transcript cont. 1
(04:26:40)
Norman Finkelstein
The only place I saw pieces of Israel were the land swaps, and the land swaps accounted for about 2-5% of Israel. Nobody asked for all of Israel. Why do you say things like that?Steven Bonnell
What do you mean? They asked for all of Israel in ā48. They asked for all of Israel in ā67. What do you think those reports were about?Norman Finkelstein
Okay. Mr. Bonnell, you talk so-Steven Bonnell
Youāre not going to respond to anything Iām saying because you have no answer.Norman Finkelstein
Iāll respond to you. Okay. Mr. Bonnell, we were talking about the diplomatic negotiations beginning with 2001.Steven Bigamy
Yes, I understand, but you canāt pretend that the first ask for Israel was in diplomacy. It was through war.Norman Finkelstein
Okay. You donāt know what youāre talking about.
(04:35:38)
Benny Morris
Why is it illegal? They were shooting rockets at Israel for 20 years. Why is that illegal to blockade Gaza?Steven Farelli
He thinks theyāre bottle rockets, thatās what he calls them [inaudible 04:35:47].Norman Finkelstein
Why is it illegal? Iāll tell you why.Benny Morris
You donāt rocket your neighbor. You rocket your neighbor, expect consequences.Norman Finkelstein
Iāll tell you why.Benny Morris
Expect consequences.Mouin Rabbani
But that works both ways.Norman Finkelstein
Yes.Benny Morris
I know, and I accept that, it works both ways.Norman Finkelstein
Professor Morris. Iāll tell you why. Because every human rights, humanitarian and UN organization in the world-Benny Morris
Theyāre all irrelevant.Norman Finkelstein
ā¦ has said that the blockade-Benny Morris
You keep quoting them. Nobody cares about Amnesty.Norman Finkelstein
ā¦ is a form of collective punishment-Benny Morris
Nobody cares about Amnesty.Norman Finkelstein
ā¦ which is illegal under international law.Benny Morris
Forget illegal. The word illegal isā¦Norman Finkelstein
You think a blockade which-Benny Morris
You donāt understand the way the world works. These things are irrelevant.Norman Finkelstein
And you think confining, because thatās the blockade-Benny Morris
Yes, you donāt shoot rockets at your neighbor.Norman Finkelstein
ā¦ confining a million children-Benny Morris
Thatās the choice of Hamas.Steven Bonnell
Children?Benny Morris
Thatās Hamasā choice.Norman Finkelstein
Confining a million children in what The Economist calls a human rubbish heap-Benny Morris
The Economist supported Israel in this war, and continues to support Israel.Norman Finkelstein
Okay. What International Committee of The Red Cross called a sinking ship, what the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights called a toxic slum, you think-Benny Morris
It is a slum, of course itās a slum, but itās caused by the Hamas.Norman Finkelstein
ā¦ under international law, you think itās legitimate-Benny Morris
Forget the law.Norman Finkelstein
Hey, I know you want to forget the law.Benny Morris
What about morality? Forget the law, what about morality?Norman Finkelstein
Itās what every Israeli fears the most.Benny Morris
What?Norman Finkelstein
The law.Benny Morris
No, no, no.Norman Finkelstein
As Tzipi Livni said, āI studied international law. I oppose international law.ā Of course you donāt want to hear about the law.Benny Morris
That has got nothing to do with anything.Norman Finkelstein
Okay, so hereās the thing. Then donāt complain about October 7th.Benny Morris
Do you hear me complaining? I didnāt complain.Norman Finkelstein
If you want to say forget about the law-Benny Morris
All I said was they acted like barbarians.Norman Finkelstein
ā¦ when there is no international humanitarian law, thereās no distinction between civilians and combatants-Benny Morris
There should be, but itās got nothing to do with the law.Norman Finkelstein
Now youāre doing what Mouin said, youāre becoming very selective about the law. If you want to forget about the law-Benny Morris
People should be [inaudible 04:37:51].Mouin Rabbani
Across the board.Norman Finkelstein
ā¦ Hamas had every right to do what it did. It had every right to do what it did according to you, not to me, because you want to forget the law.Steven Bonnell
Do you still support the Houthis shooting random ships?Norman Finkelstein
Absolutely.Steven Bonnell
Okay, thatās a violation of international law, so you play the same game.Norman Finkelstein
Absolutely. And were there are power during World War II who had the courage of the Houthis, were there are power that had that kind of courage-Steven Bonnell
So courageous to be bombing merchant ships while tens of thousands of people die of actual starvation, not the starvation that exists in the Gaza Strip where people before October 7th donāt die of starvation. Not the concentration camp, as they say of the Gaza Strip. The Houthis.Benny Morris
What about starvation in Yemen? Donāt that have something better to do?Norman Finkelstein
That was the Houthis.Benny Morris
Yes, I know. Donāt they have anything better to do?Norman Finkelstein
That was the Houthis, and you know in three years they blew up 180,000 people.Benny Morris
Shouldnāt they be feeding the Yemenis?Norman Finkelstein
You know, 60,000 Yemenis died in starvation?Benny Morris
Why fight the western powers in Israel when you should be taking care of your problems at home, the Houthis.Mouin Rabbani
Often the only allies of the dispossessed are those who experience similar circumstances.Benny Morris
Donāt you think that they should take care of the Yemeni problems?Mouin Rabbani
As I said-Norman Finkelstein
Iām very happy theyāre helping out the Palestinians.Benny Morris
Itās at the expense of the Yemenis. Theyāll pay for it.Norman Finkelstein
Anybody who comes to the aid of those suffering the genocide-Benny Morris
Thereās no genocide.Norman Finkelstein
ā¦ half of whom are childrenā¦ Yeah, according to the most current UN reports, as of today-Benny Morris
Thereās no genocide.Norman Finkelstein
ā¦ one quarter of the population of Gaza-Benny Morris
Is starving.Norman Finkelstein
That means 500,000 children-Benny Morris
Are starving,Norman Finkelstein
ā¦ are on the verge of famine.Benny Morris
They keep saying on the verge of.Steven Bonnell
On the verge of. Didnāt you quote that they said it was unlivable?Benny Morris
I have not seen one Palestinian die of starvation in these last four months. Not one.Mouin Rabbani
There have been documented cases.Benny Morris
They are always on the verge. Theyāre on the verge.Mouin Rabbani
There have been documented cases.Benny Morris
I havenāt seen any.Steven Bonnell
Yesterday Al Jazeera said six, and the day before that they said two, so those are the two.Benny Morris
That number probably dies in Israel of starvation also.Mouin Rabbani
I donāt think thereās famine in Israel.Norman Finkelstein
Youāre so laid back, so blasĆ©.Benny Morris
There isnāt. There isnāt in the Gaza Strip either. Itās something which is produced for the Western-Norman Finkelstein
āI havenāt seen any starving children yet.āDestiny is an idiot but his debate partner is genuinely evil and I want him dead
yeah Destiny has the excuse of arrogant ignorance typical of an amerikkkan, though in the 99th percentile of such chauvinistic bullshit. Benny Morris is an accredited historian whose own work contradicts his worldview, an unrepentant Zionist ghoul who is aware and complicit.
Dude just totally spouts off nazi party line speech like itās cool and normal. He has looked the gruesome facts in the eye and decided to defend them. That is pure evil, I was going to say āpure, cold, black hearted evilā for emphasis but backspace, cause thatās wrong. Cold, blackhearted evil is too fucking good. He is full on emotionally invested, bleeding heart evil. Thatās what weāre facing. People who are so passionate about evil a nitwit could mistake it for the passion that generally drives people to do good. This not only underlies the danger of such an evil that it poses so easily as righteous fervor, but to possess it in oneself is to truly have taken the demon seed within your very soul and nature that lacking any metaphysical woo shit, is the closest one can be to becoming a literal demon. This is the worst kind of person.
the qualitative chasm between people on the side of the population having war crimes done to them saying āinternational law is meaninglessā and the people on the side of the war criminals saying āinternational law is meaninglessā is fucking oceanic. Like, is this your fucking own? Is this your bit? āyou cannot do shit to us, fuck all of you, weāll keep killing, we have nukesā is real fucking convincing. A publicly untenable position. You do not come out of a debate where you put that in the record a winner, any wins you have copped from that become pyrrhic and turn all your weaselly rhetorical dancing into ash. A genuinely psychotic ideology where you think thatās acceptable to say in a medium where you are trying to convince people.
Which, in all honesty, is how the world works, international law means Jack fucking shit based on just whsts currently happening not to even speak of history coughs Iraq really clearly. And yeah, any oppressor is for sure going to attempt to apply that double standard, comes with the territory of doing atrocities, thatās all pretty standard and being mad at hypocrisy is gonna get you no where. But holy fucking hell, have the decency to be cynical about it.
I think it was in the newer Brace interview episode of True Annon where Israel is reaaaally letting the mask slip internationally as more and more of their internal propaganda/True national sentiment has really managed to get through and the rhetoric that is used within Israel has been shown outside of the country and itās this disgusting combo of pathetic use of what democratic voters like to hear and see authentically combined with full on ethnic cleansing talk with no filter. You can only play the victim while openly and passionately endorsing an extermination campaign before it unravels. Lucky for them public opinion also means nothing sontheyre probably feeling comfortable as hell doing this.
Dude just totally spouts off nazi party line speech like itās cool and normal.
literally. Hasan dug up a quote from Goebbels that matched nearly word for word, at one point. it was shocking coming from a historian who knows exactly what heās doing because, as was shown extensively in the debate by Norm, his own work lambasts his present position.
transcript cont. 2
(04:40:08)
Norman Finkelstein
I think Human Rights Watch called it using starvation as a weapon. Thatās called engineering.Steven Bonnell
Thatās what they did, but you were pushed on this by Coleman Hughes to bring up an example of why is the Gaza Strip, by what metric are they starving? By what metric is it so behind the rest of the world?Mouin Rabbani
If weāre going to bring up-Steven Bonnell
I want to hear an answer to that, because he didnāt answer it before.Norman Finkelstein
Iām happy to answer it. I just quoted you from the humanitarian organizations. They said one quarter of the population of Gaza is now verging on famine.Steven Bonnell
Before October 7th.Norman Finkelstein
Iām not going before October 7th.Steven Bonnell
But you used that as justification for Hamas fighting. You said the conditions were unlivable, they had to fight.Norman Finkelstein
I said to him-Steven Bonnell
So my question is what made it unlivable prior to October 7th? What are the metrics that youāre using?Norman Finkelstein
There were about five, six or seven reports issued by UNCTAD, issued by the World Bank, issued by the International Monetary Fund, and they all said thatās why.Steven Beetlejuice
Why? Why did they say that?Norman Finkelstein
Thatās why The Economist, not a radical periodical, described Gaza as a human rubbish heap.Steven Bonnell
So tell me by what metrics? If youāre a historian, if you do all this work to get to things, tell me what they said. Donāt just tell me a sentence, tell me by what metric.Norman Finkelstein
Mr. Bonnell.Steven Penalty
Heās not going to answer again.Norman Finkelstein
I donāt think Iāve avoided any of your questions-Steven Farelli
Of course you have, youāve avoided every question.Norman Finkelstein
ā¦ except when they breached the threshold of complete imbecility.Steven Bonnell
So you were about to tell me by what metric the Gaza Strip is a humanitarian crisis.Norman Finkelstein
Iām going to answer you. You remember what I said a moment ago, I said to Professor Morris, I defer to expertise? I look at what the organizations say. I look at what the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights said.Steven Borelli
Youāre saying in more words that you donāt know. You donāt know or you donāt care.Norman Finkelstein
And I donāt know.Steven Farelli
Okay, thatās fine. Thatās what I said.Norman Finkelstein
Have you ever investigated how complicated is the metric for hunger, starvation, and famine? It is such a complicated metric they figured out, if you asked me to repeat it now, I couldnāt do it.Steven Morelli
And yet we have a Human Development Index where we rank countries, yet we can still measure infant mortality-Norman Finkelstein
Okay, you go and call the news programs.
(04:47:09)
Mouin Rabbani
Well, I would expect nothing less from someone who doesnāt think Jim Crow is apartheid, but who does think that Arab states not giving Palestinians-Steven Bonnell
The problem is youāre morally loading. For you apartheid is when racists do bad things.Mouin Rabbani
No. Thereās a definition of apartheid.Steven Bonnell
Thatās great.Mouin Rabbani
There is a very clear definition of apartheid.Steven Bonnell
A specific top-down racial domination, enacted through top-down, like federal legislative policies or whatever, means that I donāt know if Jim Crow would have qualified for apartheid. That doesnāt make it any lessā¦Norman Finkelstein
Have you ever heard of Plessy versus Ferguson?Steven Bonnell
Excuse me. Finkelstein, Iām talking right now. Excuse me, excuse me Twinklestein, Iām talking to your friend over here. I donāt know if it would have qualified as the crime of apartheid, just like if Israel were to literally nuke the Gaza Strip and kill two million people, I donāt know if that would qualify for the crime of genocide.Mouin Rabbani
In your eyes probably not.Steven Bonnell
Well, yeah, but because genocide requires a special intent. I think the issue is, instead ofā¦ And I think this conversation actually is emblematic of the entire conversation.Mouin Rabbani
Then let me finish answering Benny Morrisās question.Steven Bonnell
Well sure, but you accused me of supporting racism.Mouin Rabbani
Well, you did.Steven Bonnell
I didnāt.Mouin Rabbani
And you are.Steven Bonnell
Do you think I support Jim Crow laws?Mouin Rabbani
Look, when-Steven Bonnell
The fact that you canāt even answer that honestly, right?Mouin Rabbani
It doesnāt matter what-Steven Bonnell
You couldnāt say that 800 civilians were killed by Hamas, you said, āWell, maybe 400 were killed by Israel. I donāt know the number, maybe-Mouin Rabbani
No, I didnāt say that.Steven Bonnell
You said 400.Mouin Rabbani
No, I didnāt say that.Steven Bonnell
You co-signed the opinion.Mouin Rabbani
No, I didnāt.Norman Finkelstein
No, he didnāt. He said the majority [inaudible 04:48:20].Steven Bonnell
Well, wait, how many? I think the word was some, thatās what I heard.Norman Finkelstein
No, I think your memory-Mouin Rabbani
Well, you werenāt listening.Norman Finkelstein
ā¦ your memoryās [R-SLUR].D:Steven Farelli
How many people do you think approximately, if you had to ballpark it, how many do you think were killed by Hamas on October 7th?Mouin Rabbani
I think itās pretty clear that the majority of civilians that were killed on-Norman Finkelstein
Thatās what he said.Steven Bonnell
51%? Or 90%?Mouin Rabbani
Donāt ask me to put a number on something I donāt know.Steven Bonnell
I just want a ballpark. Those are two very different intuition.Mouin Rabbani
First of all, when you say Hamas, do you mean Palestinians, or do you mean Hamas specifically?Steven Bonnell
I mean the invading Palestinian force? I donāt like to say Palestinians, because I donāt think all Palestinian civilians were involved, so Iāll say Hamas, Islamic Jihad, whatever, Al Quds, whatever other-Mouin Rabbani
But thatās how this discussion started. You said Hamas and I began to answer that, and then Benny Morris said, actually he means Hamas in addition to Jihad and the others.Steven Bonnell
So of the invading Palestinian force, how many do you think killed civilians versus the IDF? What do you think the ballpark, the percentage?Mouin Rabbani
Well, the figures we have are that about a third of the casualties on October 7th were military, and about two-thirds were-Steven Bonnell
Thatās not what I asked at all.Mouin Rabbani
Whatās your question?Benny Morris
Heās asking about the two-thirds.Steven Bonnell
What percentage of civilians do you think were killed by the invading force, a ballpark?Mouin Rabbani
I think a clear majority, but I canāt give you a specific figure.Steven Weaselly
If you thought it was closer to 51% or 99% were killed by-Norman Finkelstein
Why would he know that? How would he know that?Steven Bonnell
Because itās interesting to actually stake out a position.Norman Finkelstein
Yeah, itās interesting-Steven Bonnell
If you want to be completely, totally agnostic on it, thatās fine.Norman Finkelstein
Based on complete ignorance, because we donāt know. Professor Morris doesnāt know, Mouin Rabbani doesnāt know.Steven Bonnell
And yet you can speak with absolute certainty that the IDF is targeting and murdering Palestinian children intentionally.Norman Finkelstein
Well, actually-Steven Bonnell
Do you see the double standard?Norman Finkelstein
No, I donāt. You see-Steven Bonnell
I know you donāt. It was a rhetorical question, obviously you donāt.Norman Finkelstein
You know why?Steven Bonnell
Because youāre uneducated on the matter.Norman Finkelstein
I looked at the UN report.Steven Bonnell
Uh-huh. The Goldstone Report?Norman Finkelstein
No. The UN report on the great march of return in 2018, and they said that the snipers were targeting children, medics, journalists, and disabled people.Mouin Rabbani
Just as they are now in this conflict.Norman Finkelstein
Exactly.transcript cont. 3
(cont.)
Mouin Rabbani
More journalists have been killed in the last several months in Gaza, than in any other conflict.Norman Finkelstein
And in all of World War II.Steven Bonnell
Do you acknowledge that Hamasā¦ Thatās great, the comparison is fun.Mouin Rabbani
Hamas is not killing journalists in the Gaza strip.Steven Bonnell
Do you agree that they operate in civilian uniforms, that their goal is to induce that confusion, that thatās the way that they conduct themselves militarily?Mouin Rabbani
Let me finish my point. More journalists have been, more UN-Steven Bonnell
I understand, and more children, and the-Norman Finkelstein
He doesnāt want to hear it, itās so boring.Steven Bonnell
No, because itās virtue signaling.Norman Finkelstein
Virtue signaling!Steven Bonnell
You donāt have a material, a substantialā¦ It is virtue signaling. Yes, like when you say children, over and over again, thatās virtue signaling.Mouin Rabbani
You know you have this habit of mocking the dead.Norman Finkelstein
But talking about how many Israelis were killed, thatās not virtue signaling, because thatās human life.Steven Bonnell
I donāt care if a hundred are killed or a thousand, Iām curious who youāre assigning blame to.Norman Finkelstein
You just interrogated him, 51%, 90%.Steven Bonnell
The question, yes, thatās not the number, thatās the responsibility, Norman.Norman Finkelstein
And then Mouin mentions that more journalists were killed in Gaza than in all of World War II.Steven Bonnell
That doesnāt further any part of the conversation.Norman Finkelstein
And more medics were killed in Gaza.Benny Morris
No, thatās silly.Norman Finkelstein
And then he says, itās virtue signaling.Benny Morris
Journalists werenāt in the area.Norman Finkelstein
But when Israelis get killed, thatās serious.Steven Bonnell
I never said that. Itās serious on both sides. I didnāt say, respectfully-Mouin Rabbani
Itās called [inaudible 04:51:29].Norman Finkelstein
No, you called it virtue signaling.Steven Morelli
No, Iām not virtue signaling, Iām asking a substantive question of who do you assign blame to, or do you play into Norm Finkelsteinās conspiracies that the ambulances should have known immediately who was dead, that the numbers were changed because they were fake.Norman Finkelstein
Mr. Borrell, Mr. Borrell-Steven Bonnell
Or that maybe 51% of the people were killed by Hamas and Islamic Jihad, but 29% were killed by IDF helicopters.Mouin Rabbani
You asked me a direct question, and you got a direct answer.Steven Bonnell
I didnāt, I got majority, which could be anything from 51 to 99.Mouin Rabbani
I said a clear majority.Benny Morris
What percent is a clear majority as opposed to a majority?Steven Berelli
They live in ambiguity.Mouin Rabbani
A clear majority, in my view, is well over 50%. Please donāt ask me to be more precise, because I canāt.Benny Morris
You could say 80, 90, 95%.Mouin Rabbani
If I knew that, I would say it.Benny Morris
I think itās reasonable. Itās a reasonable supposition.Mouin Rabbani
Perhaps it is, but Iā¦Norman Finkelstein
Mr. Morris, you are not the best person to be asking that question. I read when you described Operation Defensive Shield, and you said a few dozen homes were destroyed.Benny Morris
Youāre talking about what happened in a Judean refugee camp.Norman Finkelstein
Yeah. And you said-Benny Morris
No, the Arabs said 500.Norman Finkelstein
You said a few died-Benny Morris
You guys said 500 Palestinians were killed in a Judean-Mouin Rabbani
I never said that.Benny Morris
No, but that was the statement from the PLO, the Palestinian Authority.Norman Finkelstein
You said a few dozen homes-Benny Morris
And that there were massacres there. Yes, a few dozen homes.Norman Finkelstein
Yeah.Benny Morris
Thatās right.Norman Finkelstein
Well, it turned 140 buildings were destroyed-Benny Morris
Thatās a few dozen.Norman Finkelstein
ā¦ 5,000 people were left homeless.Benny Morris
How many people were killed?Norman Finkelstein
5,000.Benny Morris
How many were killed?Norman Finkelstein
You described itā¦ No, Iām talking about homes destroyed. So you are not the best person to be criticizing what Mouin says when he says clear majority, but he canāt say more. You know why he canāt say more?Benny Morris
He doesnāt know.Norman Finkelstein
He doesnāt know.Benny Morris
Yeah, I understand that. I understood that point.Norman Finkelstein
I hope as a historian you understand that.Mouin Rabbani
If I was trying to belittle, I would give you a very different answer. I would just say I donāt know. I do know that some were shot, but-Benny Morris
You know what the right phrase there would be? The overwhelming majority were killed by Arab gunmen, and a very small number were killed by Israelis by accident or whatever.Norman Finkelstein
Youāre not speaking as a historian now.Benny Morris
Thatās probably true.Mouin Rabbani
I can state with confidence, a clear majority. Overwhelming majority? You may be correct, but I canāt state that with certainty. I think thereās a very easy way to find out is to have an independent-Benny Morris
Forget independent.Mouin Rabbani
Well, of course you forget independent.Norman Finkelstein
I know you want to forget the law-Benny Morris
Well forget, that doesnāt mean anything.Norman Finkelstein
Forget the law-Benny Morris
Independent is the UN High Commission for-Norman Finkelstein
ā forget the independent commissioner. No!Benny Morris
ā¦ Human Rights, whatever itās called.Mouin Rabbani
Not necessarily.Norman Finkelstein
Just repeat the numbers.Benny Morris
Theyāre all from barbaric countries. You know, a Syrian was the head of the UN Commission for Human Rights.Mouin Rabbani
But if it was an Israeli, it would have been okay?Benny Morris
He certainly would have been more honest than a Syrian.Norman Finkelstein
Oh yeah, sure, of course.Mouin Rabbani
Of course. Oh yeah, from your perspective.Norman Finkelstein Well, it turned 140 buildings were destroyed-
Benny Morris Thatās a few dozen.
What the fuck
four off from being a dozen squared
my brother-in-YHVH you cannot pull that word game here
4 off being definitionally āgrossā
Theyāre all from barbaric countries
Benny Morris Theyāre all from barbaric countries. You know, a Syrian was the head of the UN Commission for Human Rights.
Mouin Rabbani But if it was an Israeli, it would have been okay?
Benny Morris He certainly would have been more honest than a Syrian.
wow
