You’re blaming them for malice in what should be fairly attributed to the stupidity and laziness of the general population, though. If you seriously think they should be writing their headlines with the idea of summarizing the Lebanon/Israel situation in one sentence, you’re either an absolutely incredible writier, not their target audience or a straw man made up to illustrate my disagreement with your point.
Including a reference to the statements made by israel in the headline of an article about what israel has said is not unreasonable, regardless of your personal opinion about how that might reflect their bias. It stands that the NYT, of all those headlines, is the only one that doesn’t openly bias themselves towards israel by directly quoting the IDF, and even reflects reasonable skepticism on the statements made by the IDF. If you don’t understand that, it’s not really their fault.
You’re blaming them for malice in what should be fairly attributed to the stupidity and laziness of the general population, though
No. The first rule of storytelling, whether it be fiction or journalism, is “know your audience”. The NYT knows their audience and chooses to deliberately mislead people.
If you seriously think they should be writing their headlines with the idea of summarizing the Lebanon/Israel situation in one sentence
That’s not what I’m saying, no. What I’m decrying is their deliberate decision to influence perceptions by including a biased perspective in the headline rather than just a concise summation of what objectively happened.
you’re either an absolutely incredible writier, not their target audience or a straw man made up to illustrate my disagreement with your point.
Pretty ironic that you would accuse me of constructing a strawman in the same sentence wherein you just constructed one yourself, however hypothetical you might have dressed it up.
Including a reference to the statements made by israel in the headline of an article about what israel has said is not unreasonable
Yeah, you’re fundamentally missing what the article is about. It’s about what the IDF has DONE. Or at least it would have been if the NYT weren’t failing their profession by acting as stenographers for a genocidal and notoriously dishonest regime.
regardless of your personal opinion about how that might reflect their bias
My opinion, while clear to anyone paying attention, has nothing to do with the fact that including the official IDF version of events in the headline shows clear bias. That’s just objectively true, and would also be if the version of the story was that of Hamas or even the ones whose side I’m ACTUALLY on: the innocent civilians caught between a terrorist group and a genocidal apartheid regime.
It stands that the NYT, of all those headlines, is the only one that doesn’t openly bias themselves towards israel by directly quoting the IDF
That’s the opposite of the truth. To directly quote them in the headline is as naked a bias that they could possibly show, short of the times where they go a step further and don’t even treat it as a quote but just unassailable truth. Like in that awful “Screams Without Words” propaganda piece they still haven’t retracted.
and even reflects reasonable skepticism
Putting quotation marks around a quote isn’t expressing skepticism. It’s the bare minimum of ass covering required to not risk getting sued for repeating the words of others as their own.
If you don’t understand that
Clearly I’m not the one failing to understand anything, and neither are the NYT. If they were completely new to how journalism works and didn’t have an editor, like you, I might have considered it an honest mistake.
They AREN’T new, though, and they DO have a (presumably highly skilled and experienced since it’s one of the most prestigious jobs in journalism anywhere) editor, though, so there’s no way that they aren’t aware of what such a headline is and does.
To quote the otherwise completely irrelevant Maude Lebowski: don’t be fatuous, Jeffrey.
Clearly I’m not the one failing to understand anything
Pretty ironic that you would accuse me of constructing a strawman in the same sentence wherein you just constructed one yourself, however hypothetical you might have dressed it up.
Yes, that was me discrediting my own argument with self deprecating humor, a common literary device used to highlight the doubt I have in my own outlandish claim and imply that a less hyperbolic take is probably correct. Look, I’m going to be honest here: a huge point by point breakdown is the #1 sign of someone not arguing in good faith - it’s basically just a Gish-gallop. I read through everything, but you did nothing to engage with the substance of my comment, you just went through and presented opinions derived from anecdotally lived experience as though they are founded and incontrovertible fact.
My opinion, while clear to anyone paying attention, has nothing to do with the fact that including the official IDF version of events in the headline shows clear bias.
It stands that the NYT, of all those headlines, is the only one that doesn’t openly bias themselves towards israel by directly quoting the IDF
The simple truth is that, due I suspect to unfamiliarity, you do not understand the usage of passive voice or quotation in journalism. You keep demonstrating that, in your vigor to present your own perspective as though it’s somehow anathema to my point and will ward off understanding or introspection with the billowing fumes of vacuous crap, you are more eager to fight the good fight than you are to put in the effort to affect a change in yourself or another. To clarify: Having a conversation with you is pointless, and I am quite sure you’re aware of that. You are not attempting to influence me, you’re just attempting to rebut me and any other poster that presents a point counter to the one you hold, and that is tedious.
And yes, I am aware that my words aren’t going to sway you here, doubtlessly doing nothing but to drive you further into the defensive enclave we all retreat to when the Specter of Error looms nigh over our opinions, so perhaps presenting your own words in a new light will get through to you:
I don’t think it works that way
It does.
… Now just how in hell is this a constructive way of responding to someone?
Whatever follows that saying is usually either dishonest or otherwise factually wrong. Let’s see if you buck the trend…
huge point by point breakdown is the #1 sign of someone not arguing in good faith
Nope. You didn’t.
The reason I break it up point by point is to make it clear to what I’m referring at what time and also a tool to help myself keep on topic rather than just ramble on in generalities.
It being long is simply because there’s a lot to adress. In this case you being wrong about a lot of separate things.
That you consider that a sign of bad faith says a lot about you and the usual quality of your statements and nothing about me .
it’s basically just a Gish-gallop
On the contrary. A gish gallop is exactly what I’m avoiding by sticking to a format of addressing your points directly, rather than just veer off on stream of consciousness tangents that are impossible to fully address in a spoken conversation. The latter is what a gish gallop ACTUALLY is.
I read through everything,
Doubtful that you understood it though, based on your string of mischaracterizations.
you did nothing to engage with the substance of my comment, you just went through and presented opinions derived from anecdotally lived experience as though they are founded and incontrovertible fact.
That’s just patently false. And also rich coming from someone who’s claiming that using a common format suitable for staying on topic is not sign of bad faith 🙄
That including the claim of one side involved in a conflict in the headline is a way of inviting bias in favor of that side isn’t my opinion or “my lived experience” (whatever THAT’S supposed to mean in the context of journalism 🤷). It’s just how the language of implied support works.
The simple truth is that, due I suspect to unfamiliarity, you do not understand the usage of passive voice or quotation in journalism
That’s not a truth, simple or not. For exsmple I am painfully aware of how the NYT uses the passive voice (Palestinian children were killed) when the IDF commits atrocities and the active voice (Hamas killed x amount of people in attack) when someone whose side they’re NOT on does.
in your vigor to present your own perspective as though it’s somehow anathema to my point and will ward off understanding or introspection with the billowing fumes of vacuous crap
Holy projection, Batman! 🤦
you are more eager to fight the good fight than you are to put in the effort to affect a change in yourself or another.
Putting aside for a moment your persistent confusion regarding the difference between matters of opinion (which is doubtlessly what you want me to change about myself) and objectively leading rhetoric in headlines, what do you propose I do about misleading headlines other than point them out in a public forum meant for that kind of thing?
Write a letter to them pointing out the errors of their ways? Try to get hired there? Run for office on a platform of instituting a modernized version of the Fairness Doctrine?
Other than the first obe, which would be fruitless, those things are not possible for me to do, so I’m doing what I CAN do. All I have within my power to do is what you’re criticizing me for, so kindly stow that suggestion where the sun doesn’t shine.
And I suspect that you’re going to go all Texas Sharpshooter fallacy on me and use that single discourteous remark to invalidate all of my salient points but I don’t care.
It’s a ridiculous bad faith argument that is used often as a deflection by those who are unable or unwilling to argue the substance rather than the medium.
To clarify: Having a conversation with you is pointless
There’s that projection you love so dearly 🙄
and I am quite sure you’re aware of that
Well that makes one of us who’s self-aware, at least 🤷
You are not attempting to influence me, you’re just attempting to rebut me and any other poster that presents a point counter to the one you hold
You’re actually partially right for once: since I’ve long since discovered that you’re not susceptible to logic and can as such not be convinced, I’m not trying to do so. I am merely correcting your misconceptions for the sake of any third party that might read them and be fooled.
As for the “point counter to the one you hold”, you’re once again confusing subjective opinion with objective reality. You could make a “point” counter to the fact that Donald Trump is a notorious liar, and I’d refute that as well.
Factual reality doesn’t care whether or not you agree.
that is tedious.
Again, I’m not refuting your misconceptions to annoy you. I’m setting the record straight to counter your constant gish gallop (yes, you are projecting on that too) of misinformation and misconceptions. It’s a tedious job, but someone has to do it 🤷
And yes, I am aware that my words aren’t going to sway you here
Given that you’re fundamentally wrong about everything else, you’d be correct in this case, yes. Strawmen and other fallacies don’t tend to convince me that my simple and objectively true point is false 🤷
drive you further into the defensive enclave we all retreat to when the Specter of Error looms nigh over our opinions
This you?
I don’t think it works that way
It does.
… Now just how in hell is this a constructive way of responding to someone
It’s nothing more than a simple statement of facts, delivered concisely to indicate that there’s no doubt about it, no elaboration necessary except in case of you relentlessly pushing your misconceptions.
If you said “I don’t think Donald Trump lies a lot”, you would be equally wrong, and “he does” would be a sufficient reply to reflect objective reality.
Anyway, I grow tired of repeating the obvious and being met with “that’s just your opinion, man” and a flurry of fallacies and false accusations, so let’s end this here rather than continue aggravating each other and getting nowhere. Have the day you deserve.
Dear sweet jesus you did it again?Bud I’m not reading that. So that was lie, I’m reading it in goofy voices to a room full of people.
Seriously, have a drink, maybe introspect with some friends, grow as a person. Please.
eeeeeeeedit: Are you okay? No, seriously, with all my heart, are you safe? This isn’t coherent.
e^7dit 2:
this you
Yes.
edit 3:
Please take a media literacy class. This is absurd. There’s no way to engage with you, you cannot tell the difference between when I am insulting you and when I am insulting myself (most/all of the time). You cannot accept any form of criticism. This isn’t even a debate, this is just you denying everything, including repeatedly denying my points which are my own self criticism as if they’re attacks on you. You’re so hungry for validation through conflict, and so deluded about your own intellect, that you cannot even pick up on when your own longwinded comment reiterates the point you claim to refute. This hurts to read. I had to stop mocking you halfway through on request, because everyone I’m here with (including a media literacy professor who’s class I will happily sign you in to audit, real offer) described it as “punching down”, which I apologize for. You’re not deserving of my scorn, you’re deserving of my pity and charity.
(also incorporating emoji responses is a source of scorn even on twitter, I mean dude, just… have some self respect…)
Why, though? I’m not actually resentful here - in my experience, I doubt that we wouldn’t get along extremely well in person. Hell, judging by your username its very possible we’ve met (or are related, though that’s really not a flattering thing for me to put on you…). Your doubling down on a position you hold on an internet forum is pretty common; honestly I’ve just been curious how long it would be before you hit the point that you dispense with pretense and we can actually talk.
Escalating this into a vitriolic spewing of personal attacks and rhetoric is par for the metaphorical course online, but I’d like to harken back to the original issue, before it started getting personal, and point out that this started over my insistence that the specific wording of a NYT article headline isn’t as bad as the others. I don’t even disagree that they’re enabling a genocide or that they’re a bunch of ratfucking cop fellating soulless corporate shills - I just think you misunderstood the specific wording in the headline.
The offer of a class audit is sincere, as well. I doubt you’d actually need a media literacy class, but it’s a requirement I’m frequently challenged and decried for requiring before getting into my computer science courses. But if you’re interested, we have damn good forestry, polysci, marine bio and mathematics courses I’d happily hook you up with. Not even in an editorial or sarcastic way, you just seem intellegent and motivated and people like that can always benefit from an influx of information they have a competent understanding of.
You’re blaming them for malice in what should be fairly attributed to the stupidity and laziness of the general population, though. If you seriously think they should be writing their headlines with the idea of summarizing the Lebanon/Israel situation in one sentence, you’re either an absolutely incredible writier, not their target audience or a straw man made up to illustrate my disagreement with your point.
Including a reference to the statements made by israel in the headline of an article about what israel has said is not unreasonable, regardless of your personal opinion about how that might reflect their bias. It stands that the NYT, of all those headlines, is the only one that doesn’t openly bias themselves towards israel by directly quoting the IDF, and even reflects reasonable skepticism on the statements made by the IDF. If you don’t understand that, it’s not really their fault.
No. The first rule of storytelling, whether it be fiction or journalism, is “know your audience”. The NYT knows their audience and chooses to deliberately mislead people.
That’s not what I’m saying, no. What I’m decrying is their deliberate decision to influence perceptions by including a biased perspective in the headline rather than just a concise summation of what objectively happened.
Pretty ironic that you would accuse me of constructing a strawman in the same sentence wherein you just constructed one yourself, however hypothetical you might have dressed it up.
Yeah, you’re fundamentally missing what the article is about. It’s about what the IDF has DONE. Or at least it would have been if the NYT weren’t failing their profession by acting as stenographers for a genocidal and notoriously dishonest regime.
My opinion, while clear to anyone paying attention, has nothing to do with the fact that including the official IDF version of events in the headline shows clear bias. That’s just objectively true, and would also be if the version of the story was that of Hamas or even the ones whose side I’m ACTUALLY on: the innocent civilians caught between a terrorist group and a genocidal apartheid regime.
That’s the opposite of the truth. To directly quote them in the headline is as naked a bias that they could possibly show, short of the times where they go a step further and don’t even treat it as a quote but just unassailable truth. Like in that awful “Screams Without Words” propaganda piece they still haven’t retracted.
Putting quotation marks around a quote isn’t expressing skepticism. It’s the bare minimum of ass covering required to not risk getting sued for repeating the words of others as their own.
Clearly I’m not the one failing to understand anything, and neither are the NYT. If they were completely new to how journalism works and didn’t have an editor, like you, I might have considered it an honest mistake.
They AREN’T new, though, and they DO have a (presumably highly skilled and experienced since it’s one of the most prestigious jobs in journalism anywhere) editor, though, so there’s no way that they aren’t aware of what such a headline is and does.
To quote the otherwise completely irrelevant Maude Lebowski: don’t be fatuous, Jeffrey.
Yes, that was me discrediting my own argument with self deprecating humor, a common literary device used to highlight the doubt I have in my own outlandish claim and imply that a less hyperbolic take is probably correct. Look, I’m going to be honest here: a huge point by point breakdown is the #1 sign of someone not arguing in good faith - it’s basically just a Gish-gallop. I read through everything, but you did nothing to engage with the substance of my comment, you just went through and presented opinions derived from anecdotally lived experience as though they are founded and incontrovertible fact.
The simple truth is that, due I suspect to unfamiliarity, you do not understand the usage of passive voice or quotation in journalism. You keep demonstrating that, in your vigor to present your own perspective as though it’s somehow anathema to my point and will ward off understanding or introspection with the billowing fumes of vacuous crap, you are more eager to fight the good fight than you are to put in the effort to affect a change in yourself or another. To clarify: Having a conversation with you is pointless, and I am quite sure you’re aware of that. You are not attempting to influence me, you’re just attempting to rebut me and any other poster that presents a point counter to the one you hold, and that is tedious.
And yes, I am aware that my words aren’t going to sway you here, doubtlessly doing nothing but to drive you further into the defensive enclave we all retreat to when the Specter of Error looms nigh over our opinions, so perhaps presenting your own words in a new light will get through to you:
… Now just how in hell is this a constructive way of responding to someone?
Whatever follows that saying is usually either dishonest or otherwise factually wrong. Let’s see if you buck the trend…
Nope. You didn’t.
The reason I break it up point by point is to make it clear to what I’m referring at what time and also a tool to help myself keep on topic rather than just ramble on in generalities.
It being long is simply because there’s a lot to adress. In this case you being wrong about a lot of separate things.
That you consider that a sign of bad faith says a lot about you and the usual quality of your statements and nothing about me .
On the contrary. A gish gallop is exactly what I’m avoiding by sticking to a format of addressing your points directly, rather than just veer off on stream of consciousness tangents that are impossible to fully address in a spoken conversation. The latter is what a gish gallop ACTUALLY is.
Doubtful that you understood it though, based on your string of mischaracterizations.
That’s just patently false. And also rich coming from someone who’s claiming that using a common format suitable for staying on topic is not sign of bad faith 🙄
That including the claim of one side involved in a conflict in the headline is a way of inviting bias in favor of that side isn’t my opinion or “my lived experience” (whatever THAT’S supposed to mean in the context of journalism 🤷). It’s just how the language of implied support works.
That’s not a truth, simple or not. For exsmple I am painfully aware of how the NYT uses the passive voice (Palestinian children were killed) when the IDF commits atrocities and the active voice (Hamas killed x amount of people in attack) when someone whose side they’re NOT on does.
Holy projection, Batman! 🤦
Putting aside for a moment your persistent confusion regarding the difference between matters of opinion (which is doubtlessly what you want me to change about myself) and objectively leading rhetoric in headlines, what do you propose I do about misleading headlines other than point them out in a public forum meant for that kind of thing?
Write a letter to them pointing out the errors of their ways? Try to get hired there? Run for office on a platform of instituting a modernized version of the Fairness Doctrine?
Other than the first obe, which would be fruitless, those things are not possible for me to do, so I’m doing what I CAN do. All I have within my power to do is what you’re criticizing me for, so kindly stow that suggestion where the sun doesn’t shine.
And I suspect that you’re going to go all Texas Sharpshooter fallacy on me and use that single discourteous remark to invalidate all of my salient points but I don’t care.
It’s a ridiculous bad faith argument that is used often as a deflection by those who are unable or unwilling to argue the substance rather than the medium.
There’s that projection you love so dearly 🙄
Well that makes one of us who’s self-aware, at least 🤷
You’re actually partially right for once: since I’ve long since discovered that you’re not susceptible to logic and can as such not be convinced, I’m not trying to do so. I am merely correcting your misconceptions for the sake of any third party that might read them and be fooled.
As for the “point counter to the one you hold”, you’re once again confusing subjective opinion with objective reality. You could make a “point” counter to the fact that Donald Trump is a notorious liar, and I’d refute that as well.
Factual reality doesn’t care whether or not you agree.
Again, I’m not refuting your misconceptions to annoy you. I’m setting the record straight to counter your constant gish gallop (yes, you are projecting on that too) of misinformation and misconceptions. It’s a tedious job, but someone has to do it 🤷
Given that you’re fundamentally wrong about everything else, you’d be correct in this case, yes. Strawmen and other fallacies don’t tend to convince me that my simple and objectively true point is false 🤷
This you?
It’s nothing more than a simple statement of facts, delivered concisely to indicate that there’s no doubt about it, no elaboration necessary except in case of you relentlessly pushing your misconceptions.
If you said “I don’t think Donald Trump lies a lot”, you would be equally wrong, and “he does” would be a sufficient reply to reflect objective reality.
Anyway, I grow tired of repeating the obvious and being met with “that’s just your opinion, man” and a flurry of fallacies and false accusations, so let’s end this here rather than continue aggravating each other and getting nowhere. Have the day you deserve.
Dear sweet jesus you did it again?
Bud I’m not reading that.So that was lie, I’m reading it in goofy voices to a room full of people. Seriously, have a drink, maybe introspect with some friends, grow as a person. Please.eeeeeeeedit: Are you okay? No, seriously, with all my heart, are you safe? This isn’t coherent.
e^7dit 2:
Yes.
edit 3: Please take a media literacy class. This is absurd. There’s no way to engage with you, you cannot tell the difference between when I am insulting you and when I am insulting myself (most/all of the time). You cannot accept any form of criticism. This isn’t even a debate, this is just you denying everything, including repeatedly denying my points which are my own self criticism as if they’re attacks on you. You’re so hungry for validation through conflict, and so deluded about your own intellect, that you cannot even pick up on when your own longwinded comment reiterates the point you claim to refute. This hurts to read. I had to stop mocking you halfway through on request, because everyone I’m here with (including a media literacy professor who’s class I will happily sign you in to audit, real offer) described it as “punching down”, which I apologize for. You’re not deserving of my scorn, you’re deserving of my pity and charity.
(also incorporating emoji responses is a source of scorn even on twitter, I mean dude, just… have some self respect…)
🙄🤫
oh my god you actually did it. I just lost $5 on you, you absolute madlad.
Just fuck off already.
There it is.
Why, though? I’m not actually resentful here - in my experience, I doubt that we wouldn’t get along extremely well in person. Hell, judging by your username its very possible we’ve met (or are related, though that’s really not a flattering thing for me to put on you…). Your doubling down on a position you hold on an internet forum is pretty common; honestly I’ve just been curious how long it would be before you hit the point that you dispense with pretense and we can actually talk.
Escalating this into a vitriolic spewing of personal attacks and rhetoric is par for the metaphorical course online, but I’d like to harken back to the original issue, before it started getting personal, and point out that this started over my insistence that the specific wording of a NYT article headline isn’t as bad as the others. I don’t even disagree that they’re enabling a genocide or that they’re a bunch of ratfucking cop fellating soulless corporate shills - I just think you misunderstood the specific wording in the headline.
The offer of a class audit is sincere, as well. I doubt you’d actually need a media literacy class, but it’s a requirement I’m frequently challenged and decried for requiring before getting into my computer science courses. But if you’re interested, we have damn good forestry, polysci, marine bio and mathematics courses I’d happily hook you up with. Not even in an editorial or sarcastic way, you just seem intellegent and motivated and people like that can always benefit from an influx of information they have a competent understanding of.