I guess what confuses me about all of this is why these things are in any way manly?
Like being reliable and following through on your commitments. Is it masculine when someone who isn’t a man is like that?
Or if I’m told someone is manly, have I now learned that he is in fact dependable?
I don’t mean to try and excessively pick apart what you’re saying, it’s just something I’ve always really struggled with understanding. People always seem to say things that strike me as being ungendered character traits when they’re asked about their gender.
I guess what confuses me about all of this is why these things are in any way manly?
I don’t mean to try and excessively pick apart what you’re saying, it’s just something I’ve always really struggled with understanding. People always seem to say things that strike me as being ungendered character traits when they’re asked about their gender.
I think I see the issue you’re encountering with the perspective you’re communicating.
You’re looking for things that are exclusively masculine. Besides the role in physical biological reproduction, I don’t think there is anything exclusively masculine by that measure.
The traits I listed could absolutely apply to people that are not men. However, the phrase “manly” is referring to societal measures not biological reproductive process abilities. If we distill that down further for this conversation, “manly” translates to “being worthy of respect”. We could dissect why “manly” translates to “being worthy of respect”, but that’s a tangent from your question.
Ergo, for a person that identifies with the biological reproductive role of a male, and would like to be seeing as being worthy of respect in society, then they should have favorable societal traits and behaviors, in my opinion, such as those I listed.
We could dissect why “manly” translates to “being worthy of respect”, but that’s a tangent from your question.
I think this pretty much gets to the root of the friction I experience when this topic comes up. I wouldn’t mind digging into it.
You likely have already guessed that I would think of it this way, but isn’t it just that “good people are worthy of respect”? Because it seems to me like if you try hard to take care of your family and do right by others, you’re a good person deserving of respect.
You know what I mean? If there’s no need for the trait to be exclusively masculine, then why do we do it? Translate “manly” into “worthy of respect”, that is. Is there some benefit to thinking about it in terms of masculinity rather than just in terms of goodness?
However, the phrase “manly” is referring to societal measures
they should have favorable societal traits and behaviors
Also, I do acknowledge this side of things. I wrote some thoughts about it in a reply to another comment in this thread, if you want to check that out. It’s an important point, and I don’t want you to think i’m just ignoring it. In summary, I think it’s kind of a bummer if in the end, manliness is just a tradition people feel compelled to participate in
You likely have already guessed that I would think of it this way, but isn’t it just that “good people are worthy of respect”? Because it seems to me like if you try hard to take care of your family and do right by others, you’re a good person deserving of respect.
You know what I mean? If there’s no need for the trait to be exclusively masculine, then why do we do it? Translate “manly” into “worthy of respect”, that is. Is there some benefit to thinking about it in terms of masculinity rather than just in terms of goodness?
You skipped the OTHER criteria I listed for being “manly” besides just “goodness”, that being: for a person that identifies with the biological reproductive role of a male.
However, the phrase “manly” is referring to societal measures
they should have favorable societal traits and behaviors
Also, I do acknowledge this side of things. I wrote some thoughts about it in a reply to another comment in this thread, if you want to check that out. It’s an important point, and I don’t want you to think i’m just ignoring it. In summary, I think it’s kind of a bummer if in the end, manliness is just a tradition people feel compelled to participate in
I’m not sure, but I think you’re hearing the “man” in “manly” and assuming the opposite would “woman”, “gay”, or “enby”. Not the case. The opposite to “man” in this case is “boy”.
We could dissect why “manly” translates to “being worthy of respect”, but that’s a tangent from your question.
I think this pretty much gets to the root of the friction I experience when this topic comes up. I wouldn’t mind digging into it.
Its the “man” vs “boy” part, as in, a sign of maturity, of coming of age where you stop being a young and selfish boy and can see where you are in the world and what responsibilities you have to yourself and those around you in society. Society has few expectations of responsibility for a “boy”. Responsibilities with weight go to those with maturity. Mature boys being men. Even the phrase “man up” usually means “to stand up and face the challenge instead of shying away”, or to take responsibility. A boy still be 40 years old if he doesn’t take up his adult responsibilities. At 40 years old he still wouldn’t be “manly”.
If you are taking exception with these phrases being associated with “man”, then your beef is really with the last 3000 or 4000 so years of history. The concepts of equality across genders and sexual orientation are relatively recent in the last 20-40 years. History doesn’t stop being history simply because we’ve evolved beyond some of our worst parts of it. We carry baggage for awhile as our language evolves to match our new values. Expecting language to change on a dime isn’t very realistic. We’ll need a few generations to die off and take this language with them.
You’re not wrong. But if you want to 1) eliminate any chance of assumed gender in “Boss” due to cultural history, and 2) have a little fun with moving the mark into the absurd, you’d appreciate what I’m saying.
It feels like emotion shaming. “Boys don’t cry/big girls don’t cry.” Maybe that’s why there are so many suicides, which I also think suicide shaming the victim is wrong. Shame the society/circumstances that led up to it, you know?
Its the “man” vs “boy” part, as in, a sign of maturity, of coming of age where you stop being a young and selfish boy and can see where you are in the world and what responsibilities you have to yourself and those around you in society.
I’m not who you’re replying to, but I feel the same way as them. Take what I quoted from you above and replace man/boy with woman/girl. How is it any different? Maturity isn’t gendered. Taking on adult responsibilities isn’t gendered; heck you acknowledge that when you used the word “adult”, it’s right there in the language you used.
I’m not taking exception to thousands of years of history, because so many of the traits would still apply to both genders and aren’t about equality. Keep in mind that’s different than discussing gender roles which certainly have relevant history. But “taking care of your family” is a trait and women we expected to do that to. Just with different tasks. Same with being honest / honorable and just about any trait was practically speaking, non-gendered, but with gendered expressions of those traits.
I’d also say that if we don’t try to change our language, then it will never change. If we don’t immediately question questionable assertions, historically relevant or not, then it will never change. The best day to have questioned a definition of masculinity that isn’t actually gender specific was thousands of years ago, the 2nd best day is today.
I will say I DO get what you are saying about history. It isn’t lost on me how it has influenced cultural norms and language today. But I’m also saying that, ironically, if you isolate traits from expressions of those traits, even thousands of years ago I could make the same case that the traits weren’t actually gendered if dissected.
I’m not who you’re replying to, but I feel the same way as them. Take what I quoted from you above and replace man/boy with woman/girl. How is it any different?
You’re doing the same thing they did. You skipped the OTHER criteria I listed for being “manly” besides just “goodness”, that being: for a person that identifies with the biological reproductive role of a male.
Maturity isn’t gendered. Taking on adult responsibilities isn’t gendered
Agreed it isn’t, but for a person that identifies with the biological reproductive role of a male, there is a specific term for it: “manly”. Where did that come from? History.
With my explanation to that other poster, I’m more confused by your doubling down on it.
Here’s what I’m saying “With X,Y, and Z it equals ‘manly’”
You seem to be saying “Yes but if you remove X and Y, then why does the term ‘manly’ apply?”. I agree with you, it no longer does. You’re talking about something else at that point because you’ve removed characteristics that apply to the word “manly” so it no longer is that word.
I’d also say that if we don’t try to change our language, then it will never change. If we don’t immediately question questionable assertions, historically relevant or not, then it will never change.
No argument from me there. However it will be up to the very young generations growing up right now to change this. All the rest of us have grown up in a world of old definitions of masculinity. We can reject those and adopt the words, but we can’t erase our knowledge of them. Most of the adult generations alive today will have to eventually die off for these ideas to disappear from our society.
I will say I DO get what you are saying about history. It isn’t lost on me how it has influenced cultural norms and language today. But I’m also saying that, ironically, if you isolate traits from expressions of those traits, even thousands of years ago I could make the same case that the traits weren’t actually gendered if dissected.
I disagree. One of those specific traits is a person that identifies with the biological reproductive role of a male. If that trait remains, it cannot be ungendered. If you remove that trait, you’re not talking about the word ‘manly’ anymore.
I ignored it because I feel it’s not germane to the topic at hand; and I have no argument with your assertion either as it pertains to what the biological role of a “man” is in reproduction. But biological functions are not part of the discussion of traits of, or imposed expectations of, feeling like a man.
I disagree that being someone who fills the “biological reproductive male role” has anything to do with being or needing to feel “manly”. Since “manly” in my opinion is purely a cultural imposition. More so, any traits generally being mentioned in this whole thread are not exclusive to being a man, but of a good person.
From the rest of your reply though we’ll just have to agree to disagree that the “biological reproductive male role” has any influence on the discussion of what it means when a man says “sometimes a man wants to feel like a man” or similar discussions about what it means to be a man, or to use your word “manly”, because we’ll probably disagree about what it means to BE manly. But I also don’t concern myself with being manly so that might be the disconnect.
I disagree that being someone who fills the “biological reproductive male role” has anything to do with being or needing to feel “manly”.
If you’re removing the actual male portion of the word as irrelevant, is your assertion that a woman or enby would use the word “manly” to describe and identity of being a responsible adult?
what it means when a man says “sometimes a man wants to feel like a man”
We’re dealing with loose societal definitions, so I’ll agree there isn’t a single authoritative source. I’ve shared my definition of what it feels like to be a man, and it largely translates into “handling yourself like an adult, and I happen to be male”. The other extreme definition that others may use is likely the most toxic masculinity items you can imagine.
If you’re looking for a single authoritative definition of what “feeling like a man” means, you’re not going to find it.
I’m not removing it as irrelevant from all things. I’m saying its irrelevant as part of a discussion for what other traits define many and/or are exclusively manly.
I’m not really sure what you’re asking with ,“is your assertion that a woman or enby would use the word “manly” to describe and identity of being a responsible adult?”
For sure I’m not looking for a single authoritative definition. I am, in fact rejecting just about any definition or even the need for one. I am, at the end of my logic train, begging the question, “why does it even matter?” I certainly don’t care if society deems me “a man” or “manly”. I don’t judge other people by such a rubric. I think society would be better off if we work to actively reject such notions since they lead to gatekeeping which is rarely helpful. All that matters is that I’m happy with who I am, within the bounds of whatever it means to also being good to other people.
Obviously that opinion means it will be very hard for someone to come up with examples of traits* that are actually really honestly unique to man/male-ness which a woman can’t/won’t/shouldn’t also possess as part of being a good responsible person? I have yet to hear any. They ALL a equally true for a good person regardless of gender / gender identity.
*In this context I will concede the obvious biological function you’ve pointed out, while at the same time ignoring it as irrelevant because it can stand on it’s own AND have no impact on the other traits being discussed. Just because someone “handles themselves like an adult and happens to be male” doesn’t in mean it logically follows that handling oneself as an adult = male. Just like the equally valid sentence, “handles themselves like an adult and happens to be female” doesn’t make handling oneself as an adult = female. They just mean you’re a responsible adult and not an irresponsible child.
I mean yeah, they should probably be ungendered, but in our society they still do get gendered. A lot of expectation is placed on men to be the kind of hard-working person that will work a 50 hour week, put food on the table, be a perfect and present father to their children and a dependable rock for their partner while being perfectly in control of their emotions themselves (and don’t you even think about crying) and still have time to build a furnace and teach the eldest how to change a tire and have an active social life and work out and improve themselves and do all those other things that a normal person needs to do.
It’s not good and it’s not right, and it’s not even what the OP was specifically talking about in the post, but that’s why you’ll see words like “strong”, “dependable”, “capable”, etc thrown around in this thread a lot, because men like to feel that way because it feels like they’ve achieved at least some part of the frankly impossible image that’s placed in young boy’s heads of what a man should be.
I appreciate your breakdown. In other words, what you’re saying is that a man’s feeling of manliness is most often rooted in how closely he resembles societal expectations.
I think it’s pretty much the most reasonable explanation. But it still strikes me that men generally do not themselves think about it in those terms, and in fact consider it to be inherently emasculating. Masculinity viewed through this lens in essence becomes an act of submission to an outside force, which stands in contrast to many evident directives of masculinity such as independence and inherent drive.
Indeed the OP touches on this, implying that masculinity simply must be secured from within, with brazen disregard for the way others perceive you.
So if it does really come down to matching expectations, then it seems to be, as you said, frankly impossible
Yeah that’s pretty much my thought as well. I don’t seem to ever concern myself with “feeling” like a man, or even acting like one. I just act like who I am, and mostly concern myself with just trying to be a better human and I’m a long work in progress on that. But none of it is tied to some conscious sense of masculinity. I know the culture I was raised in certainly has an unconscious influence, but I can only effect those as I am made aware of them. For sure some of my worst traits are associated with maleness, but I don’t consider them what makes me feel like a man when they come out, and for sure make me feel like an asshole. And we men and women both have assholes ;-)
That’s a good question. I think most of the traits described here also apply to women, but as always, we’re talking about overlapping Bell curves here. I think men derive their sense of self worth from things like strength, leadership and independence more so than women do on average. There’s also traditionally feminine traits men derive self worth from, like empathy, affection and devotion. The same is probably true for women; little of column A, little of column B.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that, this is just how genders shake out on average, so the implication that a man shouldn’t like feeling like one kind of bothers me.
I guess what confuses me about all of this is why these things are in any way manly?
Like being reliable and following through on your commitments. Is it masculine when someone who isn’t a man is like that?
Or if I’m told someone is manly, have I now learned that he is in fact dependable?
I don’t mean to try and excessively pick apart what you’re saying, it’s just something I’ve always really struggled with understanding. People always seem to say things that strike me as being ungendered character traits when they’re asked about their gender.
I think I see the issue you’re encountering with the perspective you’re communicating.
You’re looking for things that are exclusively masculine. Besides the role in physical biological reproduction, I don’t think there is anything exclusively masculine by that measure.
The traits I listed could absolutely apply to people that are not men. However, the phrase “manly” is referring to societal measures not biological reproductive process abilities. If we distill that down further for this conversation, “manly” translates to “being worthy of respect”. We could dissect why “manly” translates to “being worthy of respect”, but that’s a tangent from your question.
Ergo, for a person that identifies with the biological reproductive role of a male, and would like to be seeing as being worthy of respect in society, then they should have favorable societal traits and behaviors, in my opinion, such as those I listed.
I think this pretty much gets to the root of the friction I experience when this topic comes up. I wouldn’t mind digging into it.
You likely have already guessed that I would think of it this way, but isn’t it just that “good people are worthy of respect”? Because it seems to me like if you try hard to take care of your family and do right by others, you’re a good person deserving of respect.
You know what I mean? If there’s no need for the trait to be exclusively masculine, then why do we do it? Translate “manly” into “worthy of respect”, that is. Is there some benefit to thinking about it in terms of masculinity rather than just in terms of goodness?
Also, I do acknowledge this side of things. I wrote some thoughts about it in a reply to another comment in this thread, if you want to check that out. It’s an important point, and I don’t want you to think i’m just ignoring it. In summary, I think it’s kind of a bummer if in the end, manliness is just a tradition people feel compelled to participate in
You skipped the OTHER criteria I listed for being “manly” besides just “goodness”, that being: for a person that identifies with the biological reproductive role of a male.
I’m not sure, but I think you’re hearing the “man” in “manly” and assuming the opposite would “woman”, “gay”, or “enby”. Not the case. The opposite to “man” in this case is “boy”.
Its the “man” vs “boy” part, as in, a sign of maturity, of coming of age where you stop being a young and selfish boy and can see where you are in the world and what responsibilities you have to yourself and those around you in society. Society has few expectations of responsibility for a “boy”. Responsibilities with weight go to those with maturity. Mature boys being men. Even the phrase “man up” usually means “to stand up and face the challenge instead of shying away”, or to take responsibility. A boy still be 40 years old if he doesn’t take up his adult responsibilities. At 40 years old he still wouldn’t be “manly”.
If you are taking exception with these phrases being associated with “man”, then your beef is really with the last 3000 or 4000 so years of history. The concepts of equality across genders and sexual orientation are relatively recent in the last 20-40 years. History doesn’t stop being history simply because we’ve evolved beyond some of our worst parts of it. We carry baggage for awhile as our language evolves to match our new values. Expecting language to change on a dime isn’t very realistic. We’ll need a few generations to die off and take this language with them.
man upboss up, gender neutral.I like grow up, myself
That works too.
man up boss upemotional-fortitude up, morer gender neutral.Women are bosses.
You’re not wrong. But if you want to 1) eliminate any chance of assumed gender in “Boss” due to cultural history, and 2) have a little fun with moving the mark into the absurd, you’d appreciate what I’m saying.
It feels like emotion shaming. “Boys don’t cry/big girls don’t cry.” Maybe that’s why there are so many suicides, which I also think suicide shaming the victim is wrong. Shame the society/circumstances that led up to it, you know?
I’m not who you’re replying to, but I feel the same way as them. Take what I quoted from you above and replace man/boy with woman/girl. How is it any different? Maturity isn’t gendered. Taking on adult responsibilities isn’t gendered; heck you acknowledge that when you used the word “adult”, it’s right there in the language you used.
I’m not taking exception to thousands of years of history, because so many of the traits would still apply to both genders and aren’t about equality. Keep in mind that’s different than discussing gender roles which certainly have relevant history. But “taking care of your family” is a trait and women we expected to do that to. Just with different tasks. Same with being honest / honorable and just about any trait was practically speaking, non-gendered, but with gendered expressions of those traits.
I’d also say that if we don’t try to change our language, then it will never change. If we don’t immediately question questionable assertions, historically relevant or not, then it will never change. The best day to have questioned a definition of masculinity that isn’t actually gender specific was thousands of years ago, the 2nd best day is today.
I will say I DO get what you are saying about history. It isn’t lost on me how it has influenced cultural norms and language today. But I’m also saying that, ironically, if you isolate traits from expressions of those traits, even thousands of years ago I could make the same case that the traits weren’t actually gendered if dissected.
You’re doing the same thing they did. You skipped the OTHER criteria I listed for being “manly” besides just “goodness”, that being: for a person that identifies with the biological reproductive role of a male.
Agreed it isn’t, but for a person that identifies with the biological reproductive role of a male, there is a specific term for it: “manly”. Where did that come from? History.
With my explanation to that other poster, I’m more confused by your doubling down on it.
Here’s what I’m saying “With X,Y, and Z it equals ‘manly’”
You seem to be saying “Yes but if you remove X and Y, then why does the term ‘manly’ apply?”. I agree with you, it no longer does. You’re talking about something else at that point because you’ve removed characteristics that apply to the word “manly” so it no longer is that word.
No argument from me there. However it will be up to the very young generations growing up right now to change this. All the rest of us have grown up in a world of old definitions of masculinity. We can reject those and adopt the words, but we can’t erase our knowledge of them. Most of the adult generations alive today will have to eventually die off for these ideas to disappear from our society.
I disagree. One of those specific traits is a person that identifies with the biological reproductive role of a male. If that trait remains, it cannot be ungendered. If you remove that trait, you’re not talking about the word ‘manly’ anymore.
I ignored it because I feel it’s not germane to the topic at hand; and I have no argument with your assertion either as it pertains to what the biological role of a “man” is in reproduction. But biological functions are not part of the discussion of traits of, or imposed expectations of, feeling like a man.
I disagree that being someone who fills the “biological reproductive male role” has anything to do with being or needing to feel “manly”. Since “manly” in my opinion is purely a cultural imposition. More so, any traits generally being mentioned in this whole thread are not exclusive to being a man, but of a good person.
From the rest of your reply though we’ll just have to agree to disagree that the “biological reproductive male role” has any influence on the discussion of what it means when a man says “sometimes a man wants to feel like a man” or similar discussions about what it means to be a man, or to use your word “manly”, because we’ll probably disagree about what it means to BE manly. But I also don’t concern myself with being manly so that might be the disconnect.
If you’re removing the actual male portion of the word as irrelevant, is your assertion that a woman or enby would use the word “manly” to describe and identity of being a responsible adult?
We’re dealing with loose societal definitions, so I’ll agree there isn’t a single authoritative source. I’ve shared my definition of what it feels like to be a man, and it largely translates into “handling yourself like an adult, and I happen to be male”. The other extreme definition that others may use is likely the most toxic masculinity items you can imagine.
If you’re looking for a single authoritative definition of what “feeling like a man” means, you’re not going to find it.
I’m not removing it as irrelevant from all things. I’m saying its irrelevant as part of a discussion for what other traits define many and/or are exclusively manly.
I’m not really sure what you’re asking with ,“is your assertion that a woman or enby would use the word “manly” to describe and identity of being a responsible adult?”
For sure I’m not looking for a single authoritative definition. I am, in fact rejecting just about any definition or even the need for one. I am, at the end of my logic train, begging the question, “why does it even matter?” I certainly don’t care if society deems me “a man” or “manly”. I don’t judge other people by such a rubric. I think society would be better off if we work to actively reject such notions since they lead to gatekeeping which is rarely helpful. All that matters is that I’m happy with who I am, within the bounds of whatever it means to also being good to other people.
Obviously that opinion means it will be very hard for someone to come up with examples of traits* that are actually really honestly unique to man/male-ness which a woman can’t/won’t/shouldn’t also possess as part of being a good responsible person? I have yet to hear any. They ALL a equally true for a good person regardless of gender / gender identity.
*In this context I will concede the obvious biological function you’ve pointed out, while at the same time ignoring it as irrelevant because it can stand on it’s own AND have no impact on the other traits being discussed. Just because someone “handles themselves like an adult and happens to be male” doesn’t in mean it logically follows that handling oneself as an adult = male. Just like the equally valid sentence, “handles themselves like an adult and happens to be female” doesn’t make handling oneself as an adult = female. They just mean you’re a responsible adult and not an irresponsible child.
I mean yeah, they should probably be ungendered, but in our society they still do get gendered. A lot of expectation is placed on men to be the kind of hard-working person that will work a 50 hour week, put food on the table, be a perfect and present father to their children and a dependable rock for their partner while being perfectly in control of their emotions themselves (and don’t you even think about crying) and still have time to build a furnace and teach the eldest how to change a tire and have an active social life and work out and improve themselves and do all those other things that a normal person needs to do. It’s not good and it’s not right, and it’s not even what the OP was specifically talking about in the post, but that’s why you’ll see words like “strong”, “dependable”, “capable”, etc thrown around in this thread a lot, because men like to feel that way because it feels like they’ve achieved at least some part of the frankly impossible image that’s placed in young boy’s heads of what a man should be.
I appreciate your breakdown. In other words, what you’re saying is that a man’s feeling of manliness is most often rooted in how closely he resembles societal expectations.
I think it’s pretty much the most reasonable explanation. But it still strikes me that men generally do not themselves think about it in those terms, and in fact consider it to be inherently emasculating. Masculinity viewed through this lens in essence becomes an act of submission to an outside force, which stands in contrast to many evident directives of masculinity such as independence and inherent drive.
Indeed the OP touches on this, implying that masculinity simply must be secured from within, with brazen disregard for the way others perceive you.
So if it does really come down to matching expectations, then it seems to be, as you said, frankly impossible
Yeah that’s pretty much my thought as well. I don’t seem to ever concern myself with “feeling” like a man, or even acting like one. I just act like who I am, and mostly concern myself with just trying to be a better human and I’m a long work in progress on that. But none of it is tied to some conscious sense of masculinity. I know the culture I was raised in certainly has an unconscious influence, but I can only effect those as I am made aware of them. For sure some of my worst traits are associated with maleness, but I don’t consider them what makes me feel like a man when they come out, and for sure make me feel like an asshole. And we men and women both have assholes ;-)
That’s a good question. I think most of the traits described here also apply to women, but as always, we’re talking about overlapping Bell curves here. I think men derive their sense of self worth from things like strength, leadership and independence more so than women do on average. There’s also traditionally feminine traits men derive self worth from, like empathy, affection and devotion. The same is probably true for women; little of column A, little of column B.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that, this is just how genders shake out on average, so the implication that a man shouldn’t like feeling like one kind of bothers me.