Recently I posted a pretty harmless meme in my DSA chapter’s Discord (see image). It was in response to South Korea’s recent spate of Fascism.

In response I had comrades jump down my throat, attacking me for critical support of AES states like DPRK and China. According to these comrades “there is no real Socialist nation.”

As tempting as it is to quit DSA I think I should stay and try to educate.

Comrades also jumped on me for a comment I made months ago in response to some right wing BS where I said “maybe Democracy isn’t always a great idea”. The point I was trying to make was that Trans rights and other basic freedoms should never be put up to a popularity contest… I’m ok with a state that defends these rights and doesn’t allow a reactionary majority to vote them away!

During this thread, people brought up multiple times that DPRK isn’t Democratic because the Kim’s have always been the figurehead, China isn’t Democratic because “reasons” (racism), China lies about their suicide rates to WHO, etc.

Frustrating. I’ll post more details in the comments.

My question: What constitutes a “real” Democracy? Is it leadership changing hands every few years? We don’t have that in the U.S. Is it secret ballots? All the nationa above have that. Is it that the people’s votes and voices actually change the government actions? We saw this in China unfortunately when people demanded ending the COVID lock downs early. It was the wrong thing to do but done for the right reason.

And is there any hope for these people in my chapter? One of them was basically racist against Chinese people and they seem very set in this “not real Socialism” mindset.

  • MayoPete [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.netOPEnglish
    191·
    19 days ago

    So I posted a link to this, just being friendly. “Here’s some reading on my perspective on these countries”

    https://www.reddit.com/r/communism/wiki/debunk#wiki_anti-communist_myth_number_2.3A_the_dprk_is_a_fascist_monarchy

    And then this person responded with “Lmao, no thoughts of your own?” which NGL pissed me off. As if your stance on these countries came from nowhere and not constant state propaganda 🙃

    • hello_hello [comrade/them]@hexbear.netEnglish
      19·
      19 days ago

      “Lmao, no thoughts of your own?”

      I think this person is just looking to fight and feel superior and is ultimately talking right past you because they’ve already categorized you as a mark for them to mock. Maybe you can complain to a moderator about this? This isn’t an acceptable way to talk to anyone in any context.

            • MayoPete [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.netOPEnglish
              8·
              19 days ago

              The local MCU chapter has the pro-Mao, anti-Deng line. I understand where they’re coming from but also am trying to understand the history and conditions that led to things like the Deng reforms. I think the situation is more nuanced than “Deng betrayed China”.

              Then again I don’t think it matters since this is one of the orgs with a year-long initiation process. How to grow your org: Make it harder for people to join :p

            • Jabril [none/use name]@hexbear.netEnglish
              6·
              19 days ago

              they are ultra leftists who exist in the US context as a group of Sinophobes who ironically worship a Chinese man without being able to apply that own man’s tools of analysis to their own strategies, instead opting to copy and paste what was relevant to China 75 years ago as if that is what needs to happen in Chicago, Boston, or Dallas in 2024.

              In my personal organizing experience, they are wreckers who use a lot of words to take up a lot of space and aggressively push their positions without any evidence aside from hearkening back to a country on the other side of the planet’s revolution almost a century ago as the gold standard. Similar to trots and anarchists, always against the sincere communists and ending up on the side of imperialists against them.

              The basis of their analysis is incorrect, and so they see the world and what needs to be done incorrectly as well.

    • MayoPete [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.netOPEnglish
      15·
      19 days ago

      Other things I posted:

      The DPRK has a Constitution that, unlike ours, has Democracy baked in from the local level: https://kfausa.org/dprk-constitution/

      He responded:

      Constitutions are meaningless when political organizing is illegal, labor organizing is illegal, and power flows downward from unelected bureaucratic committees. The workers have no mechanisms for control if they can’t freely elect their representives or organize for themselves.

      Note I’m the one posting links to more reading. He was just posting these opinions. TBF I wish I had more “hard” proof that DPRK elections are kosher but also doesn’t the UN have election observers to validate these?

      • hello_hello [comrade/them]@hexbear.netEnglish
        16·
        19 days ago

        You don’t need to provide “hard” proof because the burden of proof is on your interlocutor to provide. You’ve already done your part with your linked resources raiden-source

        made-it-the-fuck-up

      • MayoPete [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.netOPEnglish
        16·
        19 days ago

        I’m sorry today’s China isn’t meeting the personal standards of a 100% Socialist utopia. It has to exist in a global Capitalist framework to survive. It shows one of the two ways to thrive in such a global environment, DRPK shows the other.

        I want increased quality of life, lower suicide rates, homelessness and extreme poverty virtually eradicated, etc. I also want to live somewhere that Billionaires, if they have to exist, are not above the law. China’s on the right path!

        https://redsails.org/china-has-billionaires/

        Another person butted in at this point and strongly suggested China lies about their statistics. It can’t be China doing better, no they’re just good at lying 👀

        I’m getting upset again. With “comrades” like these who needs enemies?

        • MayoPete [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.netOPEnglish
          18·
          19 days ago

          Why China is lying according to these shitheads:

          China has a much greater capacity to manipulate data thanks to the state’s totalitarian control over all aspects of society

          Dammit I’m getting mad at this thread all over again.

        • MayoPete [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.netOPEnglish
          17·
          19 days ago

          Shot:

          I’m just a realist. You can’t go from 0 to Socialist overnight. It’s a long, gradual project that lasts generations. China owns so much of industry, had drastically improved life for the 1 billion+ people that live there, and do all this by being MORE democratic than us!

          If you expect perfection, that’s not realistic

          Chaser:

          I dont think you are. The realistic position is to accept that a capitalist economy is ruled by a capitalist state.

          I think you’re an idealist

          I’m sorry, which “perfect” Socialist state is still around? None of them? So tell me again who is the idealist?

          • carpoftruth [any, any]@hexbear.netEnglish
            12·
            19 days ago

            If they’re just being argumentative shit heads it’s not worth blowing your time arguing with them. Unless you are sure others are watching and learning, you’re just wrestling with a pig in shit (except pigs are smart and worthy of love vegan-liberation-rad ).

            If they’re just blowing off your commentary, blow theirs off too. Taking these idiots seriously is a waste of time.

            “cool how you, a devoted ML (or whatever flavour of leftist they identify as) , share all the same opinions as the state department”. Just talk past them and speak directly to whoever you think is more receptive. Ignoring these wrecker types also drives them up the wall, making it more likely that they do insane unhinged posts.