• nednobbins@lemm.ee
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    20 hours ago

    I love linguistics but it has some weird stuff in it.

    Chinese doesnā€™t have gendered pronouns in the spoken language. ā€œHeā€, ā€œsheā€, and ā€œitā€ are all pronounced, ā€œtāā€. Possession and number are done by adding ēš„ (de) or 们 (men) after the pronoun, irrespective of gender. Originally, there was only one character for ā€œtāā€, 他. In the early 20th century there were several westernization movements in China. One of them included adding gendered pronouns, in order to be able to more accurately translate English texts. Thus, 儹 (she) and 它 (it) were adopted. (they used to mean other things and were repurposed). One immediate problem that people noticed was the choice of components. 他 includes the äŗ»component, which means ā€œpersonā€. 儹 replaces it with the 儳 component, which means ā€œfemaleā€. So some linguists pointed out that this implies that women arenā€™t people. The current situation is that people tend to use, 儹, when there is a single subject who is known to be female. When itā€™s unknown or there are multiple subjects they default to, 他 or 他们.

    German is heavily gendered. You can still linguistically gender someone correctly but, in addition to pronouns, you also need to match adjectives. You also need to get comfortable with the gender of nouns often not making any logical sense. eg:
    Moon - Der Mond - masculine
    Girl - Das MƤdel/MƤdchen - neuter
    Sun - Die Sonne - feminine
    Thereā€™s the added confusion that the third person feminine singular, is spelled and pronounced the same as the second person plural. The second person doesnā€™t differentiate in gender but itā€™s often impolite to use the singular so itā€™s common to refer to males as ā€œSieā€. Not to say that any of that is hard. Native German speakers constantly need to match the gender of adjectives to nouns so theyā€™re very used to it.

    Russian seems to be more complicated. I recently read that Masha Gessen uses, ā€œtheyā€. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masha_Gessen It seems that Russian uses gendered past-tense verbs. They originally used masculine verbs out of, ā€œhoping that I would wake up a boy. A real boyā€ but switched to feminine verbs as a teen and stuck with that. If anyone speaks Russian well Iā€™d love to hear more about how gender is used and perceived in Russian. Particularly from the linguistic, rather than the cultural, perspective. It looks like Russian does have gendered pronouns https://www.russianlessons.net/grammar/pronouns.php but the Wikipedia article doesnā€™t say which they use.

    edit: clarifications and grammar

    • jwmgregory@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      17 hours ago

      i like this comment but i feel the need to reply because it touches upon a pet peeve of mine in linguistics: there is a persistent myth in the modern period that grammatical gender is useless, pointless, or somehow arbitrary and is just some sort of vestigial, rotting, lexical limb that made it to the 21st century by fluke.

      this is simply not true. just because grammatical gender often appears arbitrary or illogical doesnā€™t mean it actually is. and just because grammatical gender follows many, many rules does not mean there are no rules. grammatical gender is just a fairly common form of noun class system. as with most forms of noun classing, what the rules are in a given dialect can be a little wishy-washy but they are certainly not arbitrary.

      for example, you point out the german MƤdchen as an example of illogical noun gendering. this is an opinion often expressed by foreigners learning the language, and even by linguistically-ignorant germans. it makes sense on the face of it, this word has a similar meaning to the english phrase ā€œlittle girl,ā€ so it is strange the germans decided to sort this word into the neuter gender, no?

      well, no. it isnā€™t strange and it isnā€™t illogical, in actuality. -chen is a diminutive in german. for those who are unaware, diminutives are suffixes/prefixes in languages that serve to make nouns feel smaller or more cute in a language. think booklet vs book or dog vs doggie for some english examples.

      what are some examples of more german diminutives?

      das KƤtzchenĀ - kitten

      das HĆ¼ndchen - puppy

      das PlƤtzchen - a cookie (depends on dialect exactly what this refers to afaik but generally is always some sort of cookie)

      das OhrlƤppchen - earlobe

      noticing a trend? these are all neuter! and thus we uncover a little grammatical rule that grammatical gender was trying to tell us. all diminutives are neuter.

      most every ā€œarbitraryā€ example of grammatical gender people provide has some sort of similar reasoning or rule behind it, some story or information it is trying to give you that makes speaking the language that much easier.

      just because what it is encoding doesnā€™t seem useful or logical to (rhetorical) you doesnā€™t mean it is not. grammatical gender is much more than just gender-washing everyday speech for kicks and does carry useful meaning, if you can be bothered to puzzle it out. attempts iā€™ve seen to ā€œde-genderā€ spanish (this is just what is local to me) all fundamentally misunderstand what it is theyā€™re even trying to do and often opt for rotely tearing out the entire gendered case system without offering proper lexical and linguistic infrastructure for the language to actually effectively function without it. these attempts sound clunky because they are clunky! and to be perfectly clear iā€™m not dogging on the premise, just the serious attempts iā€™ve seen implemented in real life speech and their implementation. i think itā€™s relevant bc it showcases how modern misunderstanding of what grammatical gender is can realize as actual, negative manifestations in the non-conceptual world. why this is important to think about more than passingly!

      edit:formatting

      • Swedneck
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        4 hours ago

        The big thing that people get wrong and which makes me so very tired is that ITā€™S NOT SOCIETAL GENDER, itā€™s just a case of terrible terminology that weā€™re stuck with. A chair isnā€™t feminine or whatever, itā€™s just that words related to femininity happen to be in the same class as other words.

        I really wish we could all agree to call it basically anything else, like ā€œgenreā€ which shares the same root but doesnā€™t create the connotation to societal gender.