Watch the full conversation here: https://youtube.com/live/OVl9FGe8fno?feature=shareChris, Marcelina, and Max join Katie to discuss the historic UAW strike. ...
Why should I care if their political project fails?
Because people get hurt.
Democrats might suck as far their desire, willingness, and ability to implement actual leftist reforms, but they are not as purposefully cruel. Suffering is real, more suffering is worse than less suffering, and one party is openly sadist.
Also, one party will make your goal of making the world a better place (which I assume is your ultimate goal) much more risky than the other. Why would you make your goal more difficult to achieve out of spite?
(This is your cue to bring up black vans at BLM and say that Democrats are no better).
I realize that the Democrats are not going to bring about communist utopia, but as a trans person, one party winning power makes me scared of going about daily life, makes me wonder if my medication will be banned, whether I’ll be prohibited from public areas because of my identity – the other doesn’t. But I guess you don’t care about any of that.
If you think voting Democrat will make your revolution less likely or take longer, and you are willing to let harm happen to make it happen faster than you are an accelerationist - a morally tenuous position at best.
Democrats might suck as far their desire, willingness, and ability to implement actual leftist reforms, but they are not as purposefully cruel. Suffering is real, more suffering is worse than less suffering, and one party is openly sadist.
Republicans are obviously more cruel than Democrats and I’ll even throw in that they’re generally dumber as well. But I do think you’re underselling just how dog shit and cruel Democrats are. We have somewhere between 50-90k people dying each year due to lacking healthcare in this country and Democrats have absolutely no desire to stop it. Nada, zilch, none, 200-360k people will have died in the US under Biden presidency that didn’t have to.
Republicans are dumb antivaxers who don’t understand science, but Democrats claim to, which makes their COVID response a cruel and disgusting genocide on those with disabilities.
whether I’ll be prohibited from public areas because of my identity – the other doesn’t. But I guess you don’t care about any of that.
I can’t speak for the person you responded to, but I would assume that they care about trans rights and existence.
I do think two things are worth noting:
Your and my votes generally do not matter because a single vote usually is not going to make a difference we could have every Hexbear user vote, even the non-American ones, and it would not move the needle.
The attack on trans people is happening while Democrats are in power and rather than confronting it in any meaningful way they’ve equivocated about the complexity of childs sports.
If you think voting Democrat will make your revolution less likely or take longer, and you are willing to let harm happen to make it happen faster than you are an accelerationist - a morally tenuous position at best.
Capitalism is going to do what it does regardless of which party we vote for. This is because the contradictions are very apparent and neither party is capable of addressing them. Republicans will continue to scapegoat trans people and probably immigrants and Democrats will continue to be cowards while hogs shoot up schools and gay bars. And that’s it. Nothing will be done about it.
Your and my votes generally do not matter because a single vote usually is not going to make a difference… (which seems to me to imply (in this case) don’t bother voting, revolution is the only way to make things better)
I see this attitude a lot in the auth-left. Is this a general thing or only counts when talking about voting?
What about driving SUVs? I’m just one person, doesn’t matter if I drive an SUV right? It’s only one automobile. And promoting the concept that people shouldn’t drive SUVs would be silly right?
What about consuming animal products? It wouldn’t matter if people become vegan or not right?, the cow is already dead, the carbon emissions already emitted, and one person eating a hamburger won’t make any difference, no sense in eating less meat or trying to promote eating less meat, it’d be no more useful than voting/promoting voting. The only solution would be to outlaw being non-vegan, and anyone who wants a burger deserves the wall right?
What should I use instead? And what other ways should I differentiate myself, an anarcho-communist, from other leftists who want to use state power to get their way? Is that not authoritarian?
There may be dumb people making dumb memes about it, but I haven’t seen anything that makes more sense. If you can point me to something better I’d appreciate it.
the political compass was invented solely to make “right libertarianism” look like a real ideology. It was pushed by billionaire money into schools to rot peoples brains. Its not real and provides no insight, it only furthers political illiteracy in the US. Its not a random statement, its a bullshit concept
Is right libertarianism not a real ideology? I recognize that it’s awful, but that doesn’t mean it’s not a political position that can be taken. I only use the political compass because it seems more useful than the simple left-right spectrum.
I might say Marxists denigrate the political compass because it lays bare the authoritarianism of the position and the fact that communism is bigger than that specific position.
If there is a system that works better, please give me a link.
There was a thread maybe a month back where we all took the test and everyone is “left libertarian,” because the entire design of this thing is ridiculous.
Ah, ok I think I see where some of your problems with this come from and where our disagreements come from.
You and many others see the political compass and the questions as one and the same. I’m seeing the compass square itself as a tool, the same way way I view the left-right political spectrum. The tool is distinct from any set of questions one might ask to locate an individual on the scale.
The fact that some horrible person or group came up with a tool doesn’t make that tool inherently useless. Now the questions they ask, sure, those are probably stupid and problematic.
Ignore the stupid questions and website and use the squares the same way you use the spectrum. Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.
There is no fucking “auth-left” get outta here with that liberal bs. Also real “you want to decolonize? wow so you want to shoot all white people” energy there
Capitalism is going to do what it does regardless of which party we vote for. This is because the contradictions are very apparent and neither party is capable of addressing them. Republicans will continue to scapegoat trans people and probably immigrants and Democrats will continue to be cowards while hogs shoot up schools and gay bars. And that’s it. Nothing will be done about it.
So then why not look for realistic solutions to ending capitalism rather than entertain the idea that a few thousand people (who spent lots of energy in the meantime pissing people off online for fun) are going to persuade enough people to join them in a successful communist revolution?
I’m an anarcho-communist, so I’m not saying the solutions to the world’s problems can be solved within the system, but I also think there is value in being realistic and reducing harm with available tools and not making my enemy more powerful out of spite.
I’ll reply to both of your comments just to be coherent:
(which seems to me to imply (in this case) don’t bother voting, revolution is the only way to make things better)
I did not say this. Voting can make things better it just often doesn’t. My mentality on voting is that if it’s easy to do then do it but there are counties where I live where people will have to wait for up to 3 hours to vote and often have to get to work. Is it worth it to browbeat these people who would rather do anything else? I would say not.
A single person being a vegan or driving an SUV does not matter in aggregate for the climate because there are systematic problems that pollute significantly more than any single person will in infinite lifetimes.
So then why not look for realistic solutions to ending capitalism rather than entertain the idea that a few thousand people (who spent lots of energy in the meantime pissing people off online for fun) are going to persuade enough people to join them in a successful communist revolution?
My brother/sister/nb in Christ are you really saying that it is more “realistic” to vote out capitalism than it is to have a revolution? There have been numerous revolutions and zero elections that have overthrown capitalism.
If you want to vote to improve things Godspeed and I’ll even join you, but the notion that you’ll achieve your goals of Socialism through voting is absurd. Direct action gets the goods and is infinitely more important than voting.
I did not say this. Voting can make things better it just often doesn’t.
Amazing! I’d call this progress.
counties where I live where people will have to wait for up to 3 hours to vote
You know why they have to wait 3 hours to vote? Because Republicans gain power and make it more difficult to vote for those in areas they think may not support them. This problem would be easy to solve by increasing non-Republican voters (interestingly Taylor Swift may be helping here lol).
A single person being a vegan or driving an SUV does not matter in aggregate for the climate because there are systematic problems that pollute significantly more than any single person will in infinite lifetimes.
Ok, at least that’s a consistent position. I expect to not see you denigrate people for eating meat or driving large vehicles.
My brother/sister/nb in Christ are you really saying that it is more “realistic” to vote out capitalism than it is to have a revolution?
Nope. But I think having people in power that don’t have a particular boner for cruelty will make any attempts at moving beyond capitalism easier. As far as methods of moving beyond capitalism, I’m in favor of things like dual-power, mutual-aid, community level resilience and independence from capitalist and state systems – and having fascists in power makes those things harder and riskier. When we know where our food is coming from when the grocery store is not an option, we can consider being able to fight for more than 2 days.
You know why they have to wait 3 hours to vote? Because Republicans gain power and make it more difficult to vote for those in areas they think may not support them.
Yes, it is Republicans I’m not going to dispute that, but when Democrats are in power in these areas they do not wield power in a way that propagates it. And our state wide democratic party is extremely dysfunctional and unpopular. There are federal regulations that could be implemented by Democrats to reduce voting shenanigans and they did not pass it when they had the House, Senate, and Presidency. So again, if when Democrats get the vote they’re unwilling to make changes that will make it easier for them to get elected why should I brow beat some person making $10 an hour to forgo $30 they need when Democrats won’t do the best minimum to win? I would rather spend my time at our food pantry/garden.
I think having people in power that don’t have a particular boner for cruelty will make any attempts at moving beyond capitalism easier.
No disagreement here I’m not an accelerationist, but I will reiterate that that is not an option in my area, the state run democratic party is extremely corrupt and useless. There’s a lot of mutual aid groups in my area that get tacit support of conservatives because they’re “apolitical” and are best able to function in this way. If Democrats get their shit together maybe it would be worth putting in effort for them, but as of now they’re functionally Republicans who fund education in this state.
Ok, I get that the Democrats are disfunctional, ineffective, and unpopular in your area. What if people like yourself ran for office so that it could become more effective (even if just locally) and then maybe become more popular? This will never happen if all the good people forfeit the game.
but as of now they’re functionally Republicans who fund education in this state.
That alone would be enough to get me off my couch to vote D. Perfection is the enemy of progress.
Is that really how I’m using it? Am I asking anyone to shut up? No, you gave me a simple straw man argument and knocked it down.
No, I’m asking my comrades not be idiots that think we’re really close enough to full on communist revolution that it’s worth it to let fascists hurt people until we get there. Be realistic, if you really want to help people, pissing people off and letting fascists take power out of spite is not the way.
So then why not look for realistic solutions to ending capitalism rather than entertain the idea that a few thousand people (who spent lots of energy in the meantime pissing people off online for fun) are going to persuade enough people to join them in a successful communist revolution?
No one here is pretending that having fun online is really advancing a revolutionary agenda. That’s pure projection. You think you’re doing something by voting and by telling us to vote. Its an empty sacrement that absolves you by participating in it. And like all hollow religions, its adherents need others to believe.
You might want to consider looking for realistic solutions rather than entertaining the idea that one person will convience a few thousand people (who spend free time pissing people off by being openly communist while online for fun) of the importance of ing in a fake democracy
No one here is pretending that having fun online is really advancing a revolutionary agenda
I disagree here - I think cultural change is the harbinger of societal change. I for example called myself liberal, capitalist, and the thought of abolishing the police was unthinkable - until I was exposed to Beau of the Fifth Column and people on Reddit a bit like yourself but nicer (i.e. anarchists not Marxist types) that exposed me to new ideas.
I’d imagine if Beau called me an idiot and transphobe I probably would not have been convinced. I’m currently working to build community, this started online.
I know you disagree, that’s why you’re all worked up about on a communist site. You’re projecting that onto us.
people on Reddit a bit like yourself but nicer (i.e. anarchists not Marxist types)
I’ll overlook the petty sectarianism here, and just say that we are nice, just not toward people hectoring us about like we don’t already know. Some of us do, some of us don’t. Some of us see the point in strategic voting if you live in the handful of states (counties really) where you vote matters in a presidential election, and some of don’t care even for that arguement.
What we all agree on is that the kind of evangelism your on about is nonsense.
If it makes me a lib in your mind or the Hexbear hive mind because I care that people are harmed and am willing to vote in an attempt to reduce that harm, than I guess I’m a lib. I’ll go cry in the corner and make some Republican gun lube.
You do not have a morally superior position because you personally feel scared by one of the two sides of the increasingly fascistic coin of american politics. I’d argue that dismissing the immense suffering of huge swathes of the world let alone the USA in exchange for personal security is an immensely selfish (at minimum amoral) stance. Especially when that security is built on a house of cards that can be taken away at any moment when the Democrats find it “politically inconvenient” to support trans people.
Also, yes, lots of dems are intentionally cruel, so socialists support and organize with socialist/left parties. Wild that. The binary of Republican-Democrat is such an obviously bullshit creation; it’s incredible that in the year 2023 people are still browbeating people for not caring about presidential elections. It might be worthwhile to interrogate why you think that the mass amounts of violence that the Democrats support (often, in conjunction with the Republicans or as continuation of Republican policy) can be so readily dismissed.
If you think that voting in US Presidential Elections will make your country any better, and you are willing to ignore harm happening to the already hyper-exploited and oppressed populations of the world, then you are a misguided electoralist - a morally tenuous position at best.
Said the individual campaigning for votes for dems.
If you and the people you are organizing with (I’m sure you organize irl) decide to engage in entryism. Good for you, hope it goes well. I’ll tell you, historically, it typically doesn’t go great.
Newsom literally just vetoed a bill to protect trans kids in california despite overwhelming democrat representation and approval, that’s the most recent ratfuckery the democrats have pulled in a long line of them. You’re telling people to run for office? Tell me what happened to Bernie, an extremely milquetoast left option but still too disruptive to DNC corporate interest.
I agree with you people should vote, they should vote for third parties. they should communicate to political institutions that what we have is not working. But too many Americans have latched onto their dumb sports team red-blue politics game rather than trying to actually understand what political power is materially, theoretically, and historically. If we do engage in entryism (we shouldn’t) it should be organized so as not to get subsumed and crushed. If you are personally compelled to vote for the democrats out of personal interest, I will not stop you. But I am not interested in crumbs dusted from the table.
Said the individual campaigning for votes for dems.
Because Dems are less (“LESS” not “NOT”) harmful to minorities and will make my job of trying to end capitalism less risky. I don’t care about Democratic power itself. If you have a better idea to reduce harm I’d like to hear it. I’m pretty sure revolution is going to hurt many vulnerable people.
Newsom literally just vetoed a bill to protect trans kids in california despite overwhelming democrat representation and approval
First off, you’ll notice people calling this a “betrayal”, because they expected more from a Democrat, this and worse would be typical and expected for a Republican. Second of all, I didn’t read the law but read Newsom’s note about it and kinda agree. Newsom is not motivated by trans hate lol.
You’re telling people to run for office? Tell me what happened to Bernie
You give up that easy? Good luck trying to revolt against the world!
I agree with you people should vote, they should vote for third parties.
Math doesn’t give a shit about opinions, voting third party in our system is a losing proposition. Use it for signalling in safe districts.
Was what they did to Libya not purposefully cruel? are mandatory minimums and three strike laws not purposefully cruel? is mass deportation not purposefully cruel? Are sanctions on Venezuela not purposefully cruel?
Was what they did to Libya not purposefully cruel?
Not sure what this is about
Are mandatory minimums and three strike laws not purposefully cruel?
Yes, and I’d imagine there’s much more support for this type of law amongst Republicans then Democrats. I’d imagine you’re going to point out the '94 crime bill or something and Democratic support. Well, understand I’m not a Democrat apologist, I don’t think they are without blame or do no wrong, they are just not as bad as Republicans.
is mass deportation not purposefully cruel? Are sanctions on Venezuela not purposefully cruel?
Yes, do you think Republicans would not do these things? And much worse? I’m not saying Democrats are good.
Google how Gaddafi died and then what Hillary had to say about it, for one.
But what happened to the country was that it was bombed back to the stone age and what was once one of the better countries in Africa for the poor became one that has open air slave markets.
Ah ok, I don’t defend that. I am not a Hillary apologist, I don’t support U.S. colonialism. I simply think Republicans are worse for the well being of people that live in the U.S. than Democrats are. All else being equal, I prefer the party not actively trying to erase my existence. And I think organizing to make real change is less risky under Democrats (conservatives) than Republicans (fascists).
When it comes to international relations, I don’t believe morality, cruelty, etc are really part of the calculation. It’s all about power.
I told you to look up Saddam’s cause of death and Hillary’s commentary on it for a reason. They weren’t there for the sake of satisfying their personal cruelty, but that sure didn’t stop them.
Virtually no policy is motivated by personal cruelty, foreign or domestic, all of it is about power. Rarely, a politician has a genuine personal bone to pick with someone they legislate against (see McCain vs Vietnam, I suppose), but generally these things should be analyzed on the level of material interests.
Votes are earned.
Because people get hurt.
Democrats might suck as far their desire, willingness, and ability to implement actual leftist reforms, but they are not as purposefully cruel. Suffering is real, more suffering is worse than less suffering, and one party is openly sadist.
Also, one party will make your goal of making the world a better place (which I assume is your ultimate goal) much more risky than the other. Why would you make your goal more difficult to achieve out of spite?
(This is your cue to bring up black vans at BLM and say that Democrats are no better).
I realize that the Democrats are not going to bring about communist utopia, but as a trans person, one party winning power makes me scared of going about daily life, makes me wonder if my medication will be banned, whether I’ll be prohibited from public areas because of my identity – the other doesn’t. But I guess you don’t care about any of that.
If you think voting Democrat will make your revolution less likely or take longer, and you are willing to let harm happen to make it happen faster than you are an accelerationist - a morally tenuous position at best.
Trans liberation will NOT come from voting democrat
Republicans are obviously more cruel than Democrats and I’ll even throw in that they’re generally dumber as well. But I do think you’re underselling just how dog shit and cruel Democrats are. We have somewhere between 50-90k people dying each year due to lacking healthcare in this country and Democrats have absolutely no desire to stop it. Nada, zilch, none, 200-360k people will have died in the US under Biden presidency that didn’t have to.
Republicans are dumb antivaxers who don’t understand science, but Democrats claim to, which makes their COVID response a cruel and disgusting genocide on those with disabilities.
I can’t speak for the person you responded to, but I would assume that they care about trans rights and existence.
I do think two things are worth noting:
Your and my votes generally do not matter because a single vote usually is not going to make a difference we could have every Hexbear user vote, even the non-American ones, and it would not move the needle.
The attack on trans people is happening while Democrats are in power and rather than confronting it in any meaningful way they’ve equivocated about the complexity of childs sports.
Capitalism is going to do what it does regardless of which party we vote for. This is because the contradictions are very apparent and neither party is capable of addressing them. Republicans will continue to scapegoat trans people and probably immigrants and Democrats will continue to be cowards while hogs shoot up schools and gay bars. And that’s it. Nothing will be done about it.
I see this attitude a lot in the auth-left. Is this a general thing or only counts when talking about voting?
What about driving SUVs? I’m just one person, doesn’t matter if I drive an SUV right? It’s only one automobile. And promoting the concept that people shouldn’t drive SUVs would be silly right?
What about consuming animal products? It wouldn’t matter if people become vegan or not right?, the cow is already dead, the carbon emissions already emitted, and one person eating a hamburger won’t make any difference, no sense in eating less meat or trying to promote eating less meat, it’d be no more useful than voting/promoting voting. The only solution would be to outlaw being non-vegan, and anyone who wants a burger deserves the wall right?
Polcomp is a stupid meme that it is below you to believe in even as a liberal
What should I use instead? And what other ways should I differentiate myself, an anarcho-communist, from other leftists who want to use state power to get their way? Is that not authoritarian?
There may be dumb people making dumb memes about it, but I haven’t seen anything that makes more sense. If you can point me to something better I’d appreciate it.
The political compass makes no sense
Chain link fences are useless. See I can spout random statements that sound like facts too.
Is right libertarianism not a real ideology? I recognize that it’s awful, but that doesn’t mean it’s not a political position that can be taken. I only use the political compass because it seems more useful than the simple left-right spectrum.
I might say Marxists denigrate the political compass because it lays bare the authoritarianism of the position and the fact that communism is bigger than that specific position.
If there is a system that works better, please give me a link.
Just to point out how bullshit it is.
There was a thread maybe a month back where we all took the test and everyone is “left libertarian,” because the entire design of this thing is ridiculous.
Ah, ok I think I see where some of your problems with this come from and where our disagreements come from.
You and many others see the political compass and the questions as one and the same. I’m seeing the compass square itself as a tool, the same way way I view the left-right political spectrum. The tool is distinct from any set of questions one might ask to locate an individual on the scale.
The fact that some horrible person or group came up with a tool doesn’t make that tool inherently useless. Now the questions they ask, sure, those are probably stupid and problematic.
Ignore the stupid questions and website and use the squares the same way you use the spectrum. Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.
You can just say Marxist
There is no fucking “auth-left” get outta here with that liberal bs. Also real “you want to decolonize? wow so you want to shoot all white people” energy there
So then why not look for realistic solutions to ending capitalism rather than entertain the idea that a few thousand people (who spent lots of energy in the meantime pissing people off online for fun) are going to persuade enough people to join them in a successful communist revolution?
I’m an anarcho-communist, so I’m not saying the solutions to the world’s problems can be solved within the system, but I also think there is value in being realistic and reducing harm with available tools and not making my enemy more powerful out of spite.
I’ll reply to both of your comments just to be coherent:
I did not say this. Voting can make things better it just often doesn’t. My mentality on voting is that if it’s easy to do then do it but there are counties where I live where people will have to wait for up to 3 hours to vote and often have to get to work. Is it worth it to browbeat these people who would rather do anything else? I would say not.
A single person being a vegan or driving an SUV does not matter in aggregate for the climate because there are systematic problems that pollute significantly more than any single person will in infinite lifetimes.
My brother/sister/nb in Christ are you really saying that it is more “realistic” to vote out capitalism than it is to have a revolution? There have been numerous revolutions and zero elections that have overthrown capitalism.
If you want to vote to improve things Godspeed and I’ll even join you, but the notion that you’ll achieve your goals of Socialism through voting is absurd. Direct action gets the goods and is infinitely more important than voting.
Amazing! I’d call this progress.
You know why they have to wait 3 hours to vote? Because Republicans gain power and make it more difficult to vote for those in areas they think may not support them. This problem would be easy to solve by increasing non-Republican voters (interestingly Taylor Swift may be helping here lol).
Ok, at least that’s a consistent position. I expect to not see you denigrate people for eating meat or driving large vehicles.
Nope. But I think having people in power that don’t have a particular boner for cruelty will make any attempts at moving beyond capitalism easier. As far as methods of moving beyond capitalism, I’m in favor of things like dual-power, mutual-aid, community level resilience and independence from capitalist and state systems – and having fascists in power makes those things harder and riskier. When we know where our food is coming from when the grocery store is not an option, we can consider being able to fight for more than 2 days.
Yes, it is Republicans I’m not going to dispute that, but when Democrats are in power in these areas they do not wield power in a way that propagates it. And our state wide democratic party is extremely dysfunctional and unpopular. There are federal regulations that could be implemented by Democrats to reduce voting shenanigans and they did not pass it when they had the House, Senate, and Presidency. So again, if when Democrats get the vote they’re unwilling to make changes that will make it easier for them to get elected why should I brow beat some person making $10 an hour to forgo $30 they need when Democrats won’t do the best minimum to win? I would rather spend my time at our food pantry/garden.
No disagreement here I’m not an accelerationist, but I will reiterate that that is not an option in my area, the state run democratic party is extremely corrupt and useless. There’s a lot of mutual aid groups in my area that get tacit support of conservatives because they’re “apolitical” and are best able to function in this way. If Democrats get their shit together maybe it would be worth putting in effort for them, but as of now they’re functionally Republicans who fund education in this state.
Ok, I get that the Democrats are disfunctional, ineffective, and unpopular in your area. What if people like yourself ran for office so that it could become more effective (even if just locally) and then maybe become more popular? This will never happen if all the good people forfeit the game.
That alone would be enough to get me off my couch to vote D. Perfection is the enemy of progress.
This phrase is the enemy of progress.
Its always used to argue for why we need to allow some lib bullshit, and shut up.
Is that really how I’m using it? Am I asking anyone to shut up? No, you gave me a simple straw man argument and knocked it down.
No, I’m asking my comrades not be idiots that think we’re really close enough to full on communist revolution that it’s worth it to let fascists hurt people until we get there. Be realistic, if you really want to help people, pissing people off and letting fascists take power out of spite is not the way.
No one here is pretending that having fun online is really advancing a revolutionary agenda. That’s pure projection. You think you’re doing something by voting and by telling us to vote. Its an empty sacrement that absolves you by participating in it. And like all hollow religions, its adherents need others to believe.
You might want to consider looking for realistic solutions rather than entertaining the idea that one person will convience a few thousand people (who spend free time pissing people off by being openly communist while online for fun) of the importance of
ing in a fake democracy
I disagree here - I think cultural change is the harbinger of societal change. I for example called myself liberal, capitalist, and the thought of abolishing the police was unthinkable - until I was exposed to Beau of the Fifth Column and people on Reddit a bit like yourself but nicer (i.e. anarchists not Marxist types) that exposed me to new ideas.
I’d imagine if Beau called me an idiot and transphobe I probably would not have been convinced. I’m currently working to build community, this started online.
I know you disagree, that’s why you’re all worked up about
on a communist site. You’re projecting that onto us.
I’ll overlook the petty sectarianism here, and just say that we are nice, just not toward people hectoring us about
like we don’t already know. Some of us do, some of us don’t. Some of us see the point in strategic voting if you live in the handful of states (counties really) where you vote matters in a presidential election, and some of don’t care even for that arguement.
What we all agree on is that the kind of
evangelism your on about is 
nonsense.
Bigger images plz I don’t get it lol.
If it makes me a lib in your mind or the Hexbear hive mind because I care that people are harmed and am willing to vote in an attempt to reduce that harm, than I guess I’m a lib. I’ll go cry in the corner and make some Republican gun lube.
This is actually not the part that makes you a lib. Hectoring people in a left space about VOTE is what we consider lib
You do not have a morally superior position because you personally feel scared by one of the two sides of the increasingly fascistic coin of american politics. I’d argue that dismissing the immense suffering of huge swathes of the world let alone the USA in exchange for personal security is an immensely selfish (at minimum amoral) stance. Especially when that security is built on a house of cards that can be taken away at any moment when the Democrats find it “politically inconvenient” to support trans people.
Also, yes, lots of dems are intentionally cruel, so socialists support and organize with socialist/left parties. Wild that. The binary of Republican-Democrat is such an obviously bullshit creation; it’s incredible that in the year 2023 people are still browbeating people for not caring about presidential elections. It might be worthwhile to interrogate why you think that the mass amounts of violence that the Democrats support (often, in conjunction with the Republicans or as continuation of Republican policy) can be so readily dismissed.
If you think that voting in US Presidential Elections will make your country any better, and you are willing to ignore harm happening to the already hyper-exploited and oppressed populations of the world, then you are a misguided electoralist - a morally tenuous position at best.
I have a morally superior position because I’m trying to reduce harm while you’re trying to get your party into power.
Said the individual campaigning for votes for dems.
If you and the people you are organizing with (I’m sure you organize irl) decide to engage in entryism. Good for you, hope it goes well. I’ll tell you, historically, it typically doesn’t go great.
Newsom literally just vetoed a bill to protect trans kids in california despite overwhelming democrat representation and approval, that’s the most recent ratfuckery the democrats have pulled in a long line of them. You’re telling people to run for office? Tell me what happened to Bernie, an extremely milquetoast left option but still too disruptive to DNC corporate interest.
I agree with you people should vote, they should vote for third parties. they should communicate to political institutions that what we have is not working. But too many Americans have latched onto their dumb sports team red-blue politics game rather than trying to actually understand what political power is materially, theoretically, and historically. If we do engage in entryism (we shouldn’t) it should be organized so as not to get subsumed and crushed. If you are personally compelled to vote for the democrats out of personal interest, I will not stop you. But I am not interested in crumbs dusted from the table.
Because Dems are less (“LESS” not “NOT”) harmful to minorities and will make my job of trying to end capitalism less risky. I don’t care about Democratic power itself. If you have a better idea to reduce harm I’d like to hear it. I’m pretty sure revolution is going to hurt many vulnerable people.
First off, you’ll notice people calling this a “betrayal”, because they expected more from a Democrat, this and worse would be typical and expected for a Republican. Second of all, I didn’t read the law but read Newsom’s note about it and kinda agree. Newsom is not motivated by trans hate lol.
You give up that easy? Good luck trying to revolt against the world!
Math doesn’t give a shit about opinions, voting third party in our system is a losing proposition. Use it for signalling in safe districts.
Says Lucy as she places the football
Was what they did to Libya not purposefully cruel? are mandatory minimums and three strike laws not purposefully cruel? is mass deportation not purposefully cruel? Are sanctions on Venezuela not purposefully cruel?
Not sure what this is about
Are mandatory minimums and three strike laws not purposefully cruel?
Yes, and I’d imagine there’s much more support for this type of law amongst Republicans then Democrats. I’d imagine you’re going to point out the '94 crime bill or something and Democratic support. Well, understand I’m not a Democrat apologist, I don’t think they are without blame or do no wrong, they are just not as bad as Republicans.
Yes, do you think Republicans would not do these things? And much worse? I’m not saying Democrats are good.
Google how Gaddafi died and then what Hillary had to say about it, for one.
But what happened to the country was that it was bombed back to the stone age and what was once one of the better countries in Africa for the poor became one that has open air slave markets.
Ah ok, I don’t defend that. I am not a Hillary apologist, I don’t support U.S. colonialism. I simply think Republicans are worse for the well being of people that live in the U.S. than Democrats are. All else being equal, I prefer the party not actively trying to erase my existence. And I think organizing to make real change is less risky under Democrats (conservatives) than Republicans (fascists).
When it comes to international relations, I don’t believe morality, cruelty, etc are really part of the calculation. It’s all about power.
I told you to look up Saddam’s cause of death and Hillary’s commentary on it for a reason. They weren’t there for the sake of satisfying their personal cruelty, but that sure didn’t stop them.
Virtually no policy is motivated by personal cruelty, foreign or domestic, all of it is about power. Rarely, a politician has a genuine personal bone to pick with someone they legislate against (see McCain vs Vietnam, I suppose), but generally these things should be analyzed on the level of material interests.