How do you live in this world - filled with wars and chaos - with no hope of redemption or things getting better, and just thing “yep, this is all there is, life is good”. As Christians, we have assurance, certainty and comfort in that Jesus is coming back to judge the world, destroy all the wicked and bring us to eternal life. Atheists don’t have that. Even worse, some even prefer to insult this God. What’s keeping me grounded in this life is the knowledge that God dictates when my life ends- not me.
I don’t know how theists do it. How do you live in this world - filled with wars and chaos - believing that an omnipotent being is not only overseeing it all, but permitting it to happen? And the same being is your only hope for redemption and getting things better! As atheists, we don’t need to believe in a god that is a juxtaposition of the creator of everything in this world including that which is wrong, and also our only hope.
Your assurance, certainty, and comfort is that the same god that created the wickedness will bring you to eternal life. Don’t want to spend eternity with such a being?
God is not the author of evil. God permits it to happen because He is patient. If God would stop permitting evil, it’ll result in wiping every human off the earth, and not giving them a chance to repent. Our days are numbered. God does deal with evil.
God is omnipotent. He is the creator of all things.
So god created evil. God also has the power to destroy evil without destroying every human - god is omnipotent.
I would be so depressed if I believed in the doomsday death cults!
You cannot destroy “evil” without destroying “good”.
Evil is defined by the absence of good.
If you got rid of the darkness you would lose all of the colors, you would lose all of the sight, because there would be nothing to see except for the light.
No, the absence of good can also be neutral.
No, you don’t need darkness to see light.
The darkness gives the light its form.
no, that’s light sources and objects.
I can’t tell if this is supposed to be a shitpost, rage bait, or just indoctrinated virtue signaling. I’d make some popcorn, but it would outlast this post.
Just out of curiosity, you mentioned “this world - filled with wars and chaos” and also your hope that things get better: do you do something to work towards things getting better or will this be handled by God?
We should work to make things better- Jesus commanded us. However, this work we do is just a painkiller. It won’t fix things. It won’t fix human nature or sin. Everyday I try and do my part to make life better for those around me. But I know it’s temporary. And that’s okay. We all need temporary joys to cling to until He comes again.
“…assurance, certainty and comfort…”
Sorry, this is delusion.
And who said there’s no hope?
The atheists said.
John “strawman” atheist said it?
The Atheistic belief that when you die, there’s nothing. So if you suffer in this life, there’s no justice. No reprieve. No hope.
You are straw manning again. Death being the end makes zero difference as far as hope and justice go. Arguably it drives you further to accomplish those in life rather than just rolling over and waiting for some being to turn off your lights.
You will never accomplish them.
Beta Ray Bill says it best
If there is no god, then how do you define “good”
My dude you need a philosophy class, not religion.
The same as I would define it if there was a god. Minimising suffering across all beings who can suffer across all time and space, and keeping that minimized, maximising pleasure across all beings who can feel pleasure across all time and space. At least, that’s my personal definition. Others will have other definitions.
Things have value whether they last forever or not. Don’t buy into the lie that what happens here doesn’t matter.
I don’t see how they do
Is a song that you might hear at a concert of less value because you may never hear it again?
A song you hear at a concert has no value
As Christians, we have assurance, certainty and comfort in that Jesus is coming back to judge the world, destroy all the wicked and bring us to eternal life. Atheists don’t have that.
Okay?
So?
It’s up to us to make this world better for us. No-one is going to save us or pat us on the shoulder for trying if we don’t.
Even worse, some even prefer to insult this God.
What do you mean? Just being rude about your belief system?
looks around at the horrors of gods creation
find comfort in the fact that he’ll be responsible for your death too
Absolutely normal, not psychotic behavior
God didn’t create evil. People did.
God created everything means god created evil.
People creating evil means your all powerful god was powerless to stop evil or uncaring to stop evil which is evil in itself.
Oh He is powerful and He will stop evil.
He gave us free will. Darkness is the absence of light.
Does good create all life in your opinion?
Yes. That life has free will and is accountable for it’s actions.
God did explicitly create evil.
The fruit of the tree was the fruit of the “knowledge” of good and evil, not the “seed” of good and evil.
But he probably created evil so that there could be good, the same way he created darkness so that there could be light, the way he divided the waters from the land and the earth from the sky.
“Author” is probably the better term. The fact of the matter is, the evil on this earth isn’t God’s doing. It’s man. Yes, God gave us free will, but that makes US accountable, not Him.
So your claimed God isn’t all powerful and is not the creator of the universe? Who created the evil in the first place because you claim the universe and all of its rules are built by your god, so the evil lies at his feet unless you’re claiming a more powerful creator did the evil bits.
Who does he report to?
Darkness is the absence of light.
I recall reading about the phenomena of people believing in the “shadowy cabal secretly in control of everything” like the Illuminati because deep down, the idea that something in control, even if evil, was preferable to the knowledge that there was nothing in control - things just happen, almost at random.
I do see a bit of this leaking through what you’ve said here in the uses of “chaos,” “certainty,” and “comfort” in your statements. To be clear, I don’t really care if your faith is what you use to shield yourself from the uncertainty of existence - everyone has their own coping mechanisms - but I figured I’d make note of it.
Now, I do take issue with your other claim - who said there is no hope of things getting better? If it is just down to us to dictate things, we have been presented a problem, and I’m not inclined to believe humanity has run into a whole lot of problems we couldn’t solve. We’ve persisted for thousands of years - I wouldn’t count us out just yet.
Of course, if it is NOT up to us, and it is all dictated by God, then why should we simply give up and assume things will never get better? Is there somewhere God has dictated that it cannot be so? What actual evidence do we have, both theologically and scientifically, that things have no hope of getting better (particularly as much of our advancement flies in the face of such an assertion)?
If God put us here with no plan, then it is up to us to make the world better, and if God put us here with a plan, then it is a question of free will, (and I’m inclined to operate under the idea that we possess such a thing) then it is up to us to find out the path to things getting better. As the saying goes: “God helps those who help themselves.”
In short, I can live in this world because I believe it can be made better, without the need for divine intervention, and because I cannot believe that a world filled with so many wonderful things is not worth trying to improve/save.
So humans are just cruel for the hell of it? Not much more comforting.
“God helps those who helps themselves” isn’t rooted in Christian doctrine.
God is Love. We can feel love. We make things better for those we love, but it’s only easing the pain temporarily like a painkiller, not the solution.
Romans 8:18-25
For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.
We are suffering. Prophecy in revelation shows thing’s will get worse. Putin has the nukes. They’re going to be let off at somepoint.
We are suffering. Prophecy in revelation shows thing’s will get worse. Putin has the nukes. They’re going to be let off at somepoint.
Then my question is: why were we created? Was it just to experience suffering? Why would a benevolent god decide “yeah, they need to suffer for awhile and then they get to be happy?” And before you comment something about it being necessary for some purpose of being saved or somesuch, again, why would that be necessary? Do we fundamentally lack something that is a needed prerequisite to experience some kind of end goal on God can perceive? If that is so, why not simply create us with that prerequisite, since an all-powerful being would certainly be able to do so?
The “prophecy in revelation” you describe further makes me question the purpose of things. If God is all-powerful, why have the worsening? Are we simply playthings for a bored and capricious divine being to torment so we behave in the afterlife he controls?
For that matter, what right does any being have to my worship and admiration? If I am supposedly created by God, then I was made in such a way as to be capable of demanding a reason for him to be the object of my worship.
So humans are just cruel for the hell of it? Not much more comforting.
I mean, is that so much worse than knowing an all-powerful being that you are ruled by created cruelty? Either god created everything or he didn’t - with the understanding that if there is something he did not create, he is not all powerful.
I think it is much easier to accept that people are both capable of incredible evil and incredible good. Humans are cruel just for the hell of it has an obvious other side: humans are kind just for the hell of it too.
Goodness cannot be experienced without evil to begin with. Good needs evil to exist. “A while” isn’t that significant really. Historians skim over lifetimes all the time. I really doubt Job - who if a real figure, died thousands of years ago, is still fretting over the 80 or so years where he had periods of suffering, now that he’s in the Glory.
The “prophecy in revelation” you describe further makes me question the purpose of things. If God is all-powerful, why have the worsening?
God’s judgement needs to be poured out. He is a Just God.
For that matter, what right does any being have to my worship and admiration? If I am supposedly created by God, then I was made in such a way as to be capable of demanding a reason for him to be the object of my worship.
God created you. You can say the same thing about romantic love to a partner or parental affection.
All of what you’ve said boils down to “God decides because he is God.” You don’t see any issue with that?
It doesn’t sound the least bit disturbing to you that an all powerful being would actively choose to make people suffer when they are fully capable of not requiring it? The equivalent of a parent who beats the shit out of their child from ages 4 to 5 and then switches to showering them with affection doesn’t sound like anything I’d like to engage with.
The whole “God created you, so that gives him the right to demand your worship” thing is also just plain creepy. If your parent beat and raped you, would you consider them worthy of your love?
Ultimately, I don’t think you have asked this question in good faith. You don’t seem interested at all in fully engaging with the responses people give, and seem more interested in picking specific bits out to latch onto that have (supposedly) easy answers.
So I’ll leave you with an easy answer: you can believe in god and think we are all doomed or whatever, just don’t make the lives of everyone else around you worse by being a dickhead. That’s all Atheists ask of anyone, and I think its a reasonable proposition. As for the whole “this is temporary but heaven is eternal” angle, well, there are ways for people to take shortcuts there and they don’t tend to do that, so clearly something down here is worth experiencing - maybe try to look for those things before wallowing in fear.
Hey! So, I should be asleep right now, so I might not respond right away, but I’m an atheist and would be more than happy to have a real conversation about this, either here openly or in DMs. Feel free, anyone, to reply to this post or DM me if you’d like to talk.
yay for science and observation. i hope this goes better for you than the last conversation i had about it did for me.
Thank you for the encouragement. :)
What makes you do sure that, if there is a god, he’s your Christian one? If you had been born in a different country or time, you might be a Buddhist, a Muslim or even a follower of Odin.
In addition, the thought of living forever - for all eternity, billions and billions of years - is my personal definition of hell.
What belief system do you follow?
Oh, I’m completely atheist.
But according to your theory, if you were born in Pakistan, you’d be a Muslim, right? So I can ask you the same question “how do you know Atheism is true”
I fail to see how this is relevant
Really? The chance that the universe was created - just for us - is zero. And if you want me to believe your extraordinary assertion that there is a god, then you will have to provide the proof. Its not up to anyone to prove that a god doesn’t exist.
Douglas Adams had a relevant quote for this:
“This is rather as if you imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, ‘This is an interesting world I find myself in — an interesting hole I find myself in — fits me rather neatly, doesn’t it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!’ This is such a powerful idea that as the sun rises in the sky and the air heats up and as, gradually, the puddle gets smaller and smaller, frantically hanging on to the notion that everything’s going to be alright, because this world was meant to have him in it, was built to have him in it; so the moment he disappears catches him rather by surprise.”
So now we’re changing the subject from the geographical fallacy to general existence of God-
The thing is, you made a truth claim - “The chance that the universe was created - just for us - is zero.” So generally, you’ll need to provide some form of way to show how you’ve measured that. Anyway, I’ll point towards the fine-tuning argument for that one. That if any property of the universe was different, it’ll collapse in on itself. We know the universe had a beginning - the “big bang”. There’s also the Kalam cosmological argument - science shows that the universe is finite and had a finite beginning, yet infinity exists. Infinite possibilities, or something more practical like the numbers of irrational numbers such as pi or the Mandelbrot set - how can infinity exist in a finite universe? Therefore infinity does and must exist. Such things can only exist if there is an infinite reality outside of the universe, such as the mind of God.
If you were good at critical thinking, you wouldn’t be a theist 🤷
