Everybody knows about the backstory, there was a civil war, KMT fled to Taiwan creating two Chinas sort of, maybe, neither recognises the other, whole thing. ROC (Taiwan) ended up transitioning from military rule to a multi-party democracy, while the PRC (mainland China) didn’t do that (they did reform economically, “socialism with Chinese characteristics” and all that, but still a one-party state, not a multi-party democracy). The status quo right now is that Taiwan is in the grey area of statehood where they function pretty much independently but aren’t properly recognised, and both sides of the strait are feeling pretty tense right now.
Taiwan’s stance on the issue is that they would like to remain politically and economically independent of mainland China, retaining their multi-party democracy, political connections to its allies, economic trade connections, etc. Also, a majority of the people in Taiwan do not support reunification with China.
China’s stance on the issue is that Taiwan should be reunified with the mainland at all costs, ideally peacefully, but war is not ruled out. They argue that Taiwan was unfairly separated from the mainland by imperial powers in their “century of humiliation”. Strategically, taking Taiwan would be beneficial to China as they would have better control of the sea.
Is it even possible for both sides to agree to a peaceful solution? Personally, I can only see two ways this could go about that has the consent of both parties. One, a reformist leader takes power in the mainland and gives up on Taiwan, and the two exist as separate independent nations. Or two, the mainland gets a super-reformist leader that transitions the mainland to a multi-party democracy, and maybe then reunification could be on the table, with Taiwan keeping an autonomous status given the large cultural difference (similar to Hong Kong or Macau’s current status). Both options are, unfortunately, very unlikely to occur in the near future.
A third option (?) would be a pseudo-unification, where Taiwan becomes a recognised country, but there can be free movement of people between the mainland and Taiwan, free trade, that sort of stuff (sort of like the EU? Maybe?). Not sure if the PRC would accept that.
What are your thoughts on a peaceful solution to the crisis that both sides could agree on?
edit: Damn there are crazies in both ends of the arguments. I really don’t think giving Taiwan nukes would help solve the problem.
I think the current best solution, looking at the more reasonable and realistic comments, seems to be to maintain the status quo, at least until both sides of the strait are able to come into some sort of agreement (which seems to be worlds away right now given their current very opposing stances on the issue)
Reunify all the islands leading up to Taiwan back with mainland China like they did with Hong Kong, and eventually Taiwan itself. Problem solved.
Very simple really…
China hasn’t finished their revolution yet. That’s their internal business and absolutely none of mine.
It will end up resolving and I’m pretty sure which side will end up winning but ya never know.
Not sure why anyone thinks they get to have an opinion.
Not sure why anyone thinks they get to have an opinion.
White saviour complex is a big part imo.
Not sure why anyone thinks they get to have an opinion.
I can have a opinion about what I want.
China learns to make better chips and Taiwan fades into irrelevancy.
Once they stop being valuable to the US, China will be able to take it for themselves with no effort if they desire.
That’s not exactly peaceful.
It definitionally is
Which would be very sad
Any reasoning based on historic belonging is entirely arbitrary. Ignoring an entire people’s factual autonomy and right to self-determination, safety, and security is nothing short of oppressive, toxic, and inhumane. Flaunting and threatening power, entitlement, military, and invasion is horrendous and violates international law, advocating for a violent, corrupt world instead of a cooperative multi-national rule of law and stability.
I watched a documentary recently about the history of China, the two opposing factions. It provided some interesting additional context and things I didn’t know about previously. I’ll refrain from mentioning specifics to keep this comment more focused and concise.
China hides its own atrocieties and history. Both parties were horrendous and sacrificed and murdered their own people. Neither is “the good guy”.
The solution is simple: Accept the status quo. That history played out as it did. China MUST accept Taiwan’s sovereignty.
Not accepting the status quo has a lot of negative consequences. The solution would be simple. Respect and cooperation instead of oppression, instability, uncertainty, and suffering.
Is that realistic? Doesn’t look like it. Possibly with a leadership change. Xi Jinping seemingly already lost some power, and his more aggressive politics have been weakened. Which should not make us think there’s no thread anymore.
Modern day winning the peace is a matter of reaching some mutal benificial agreement between the hegonoimic classes in a society.
The best case imho for them would be PRC democratises to the point the average person in the countries political rights are respected and Taiwan socializes enough that corperate interests dont run to hard counter to the unified states interests.
Equally possibly though is they continue to corparatizing (though trends seemed buck of that) to the point where corperate interest agree and are unimpeded enough to merge regulations of the two countries.
Realistic? The current status quo of everyone pretending Taiwan isn’t a country and China not invading.
China isn’t going to accept an independent Taiwan for a variety of reasons. That likely won’t change unless there is a war.
Sadly the current status quo is the best solution.
Let’s cut the bullshit: a lot of what’s being said here is just garden-variety racism dressed up as “concern for democracy.” The way some of you talk about mainland Chinese people(like we’re brainwashed bugs, NPCs, or extensions of the state) is dehumanizing. Full stop. You don’t speak this way about Americans living under mass surveillance, police violence, and corporate rule. You don’t speak this way about Europeans crushed by austerity. Somehow it’s only Chinese people who get stripped of agency.
IWe’re not a hive mind. We argue, complain, adapt, survive, organize families, build lives, same as anyone else. Reducing 1.4 billion people to propaganda victims just so you can feel morally superior is chauvinism. You can criticize the Chinese government without pretending the population is subhuman or that fuck x is legitimate criticism.
And this Hong Kong nostalgia is especially grotesque. You’re romanticizing a British colony run explicitly for banks and property tycoons. No elections for governors. Workers packed into coffin apartments. People waiting decades for public housing. Extreme inequality baked into law. But because it flew a Union Jack and spoke English, suddenly it becomes a paradise of “freedom”? That tells me everything about whose suffering you care about.
You also keep pretending Taiwan exists in some magical vacuum. It doesn’t. It’s the unresolved end of a civil war, frozen in place by US military power, and now functions as an unsinkable aircraft carrier pointed at the Chinese coast. Any major power on Earth would see that as an existential threat. The US would lose its mind if China parked missiles off California. But when China objects, suddenly it’s “authoritarian aggression.” (who remembers the Cuban missile crisis)
If you actually care about peace, stop parroting racist bullshit narratives. Stop flattening Chinese people into stereotypes. Stop acting like Western militarization of East Asia is neutral or benevolent. You don’t have to like the CPC. But if your worldview starts from “Chinese people are brainwashed and inferior,” even if you phrase it with better pr you’re a racist.
I don’t think I said anything about the brainwashing of Chinese people, nor did I romanticise British Hong Kong. I used to live in Hong Kong (post-British) and everything seemed alright, food was good and people were good. I did mention that Taiwan was a result of the KMT fleeing after the civil war, and fair enough, it only remained due to the U.S. fleet being in the waters, and having missiles pointed at you at all times is not nice at all.
edit: It was not directed at me, rather at the comments (in that case I can see how you feel)
Sorry if I phrased it badly, English isn’t my first language, this comment is more an open comment to the comment section where people are saying things like this and talking about Chinese meat waves and meat grinders and the like. I wasn’t trying to attack you.
That’s fair enough. Internet people can be truly horrible. No harm done!
The US would lose its mind if China parked missiles off California
It’d be pretty funny if China gave Cuba missiles.
But they’re afraid to even give them oil to avert a US-imposed famine, so its unlikely we’re gonna see China do something cool.
Btw, mander.xyz isn’t blocked in mainland China like .ml
But they’re afraid to even give them oil to avert a US-imposed famine, so its unlikely we’re gonna see China do something cool.
There is food aid and China built their solar infrastructure so they’re not leaving them out to die. I think it’s a complicated situation for China as the US has shown how crazy it can be and China enterting a hot war with them would be undesirable for the entire world to say the least.
Btw, mander.xyz isn’t blocked in mainland China like .ml
I use a VPN anyway so it’s not really an issue I’m here to practice my English mostly while interacting with interesting people.
When does saying that “Taiwan should have the right to self-determination” require making any xenophobic or racist claims about Chinese people?
You tell me. Why do so many feel the need to use the Chinese civil war split to push racism, xenophobia and chauvinism against the Chinese? Saying Taiwan should be independent isn’t what I’m taking issue with even if I disagree with that statement personally. It’s the racism that you(general you not you specifically) accompany it with.
You tell me. Why do so many feel the need to use the Chinese civil war split to push racism, xenophobia and chauvinism against the Chinese?
I don’t know. Am I doing that when I say that Taiwan should ideally be an independent state because that’s ultimately what they want?
Taiwan should ideally be an independent state because that’s ultimately what they want?
What they actually want, according to polls, is to maintain the status quo.
And you’d be foolish to think China’s rhetoric and threats doesn’t impact how people vote on that. In any case, “Reunification” is very much the least favourite choice from all of them.
And Taiwan is already a de facto independent state.
Well, fortunately I have Westerners to tell me what the Taiwanese people want so I don’t have to worry about what they actually say.
And Taiwan is already a de facto independent state.
Right, which is why throwing the situation into chaos to force a non-issue is completely absurd.
I can literally read their polling on this and in a binary choice between official independence and “reunification”, the former wins out.
Right, which is why throwing the situation into chaos to force a non-issue is completely absurd.
I didn’t say anything should change. Just that they do not want to be incorporated into China.
No? I would question it being what they want as a whole I’m not sure it’s that clear an issue. But if that’s all you said then my comment obviously doesn’t apply to you. ???
I’m not saying it’s a big issue, but status-quo or status-quo with a view to independence (combined constitute a majority of polling on the matter) very much indicate wanting to maintain independence de facto - combined with a majority of pro-Taiwan identity in polling.
“Reunification” scores very badly.
好啊，统一中国？没问题。。。
中华民国万岁！民主万岁！
消灭中共，光复中华！
😏
Real “the south will rise again!” energy here. The KMT was kicked out of the mainland precisely because the people of China supported the CPC, which is why today over 90% of Chinese citizens support their government. The mainland would be devastated by the collapse of socialism, with over 1 billion people being thrown into poverty. The White Terror wasn’t exactly “democratic,” when the KMT took over Taiwan and slaughtered thousands that resisted the new dictatorship.
Your Chinese is ok, but I’m here to practice English.
And I have to ask, do you actually believe this? Because this is an evil position.
If the CPC collapses, we already know what happens. It’s been proven before. Economic shock, mass unemployment, pensions wiped out, public assets sold off, and ordinary people paying the price while foreign interests move in. Just like they did to the USSR.
You’re basically cheering for over a billion people to be pushed into chaos and poverty. That’s a horrifying thing to advocate.
And honestly, I’m asking partly because too many Chinese Americans do hold views like this from the safety of the US, sometimes in hopes of fitting in. Rooting for suffering back home to score points is cynical and cruel.
only thing they are hoping is the surveillance state collapses, and an actual people’s republic can be built in its place, and they can consider to return. but of course you can’t avoid painting the “traitor” in the worst light.
Nobody is racist. people are just fed up with the mindset of the kind of chinese citizen that is not only angrily parroting chinese political propaganda, but who even want other parts of the world to become like that, because they feel superior. and you know full well I’m not talking about communism here.
You’re very hateful for a third party. The collapse of the PRC that they seemingly “jokingly” called for would be devastating we’ve seen what happened to the USSR already. When did I call them a traitor that’s you putting words in my mouth. And to be able to look through this comment section and say there is no racism against Chinese people is genuinely astounding. Maybe it’s because you agree with the racists.
if the USSR didn’t fell, life would be very different where I live. by the looks of it, not better, that’s definite
I think they’re clearly baiting you rather than seriously calling for the PRC to collapse.
Check his profile and posting history, he’s serious.
I’ve seen them around before, but I don’t think any Taiwanese person or any person of Taiwanese descent truly believes it’s possible to actually somehow destroy the PRC and replace it with the ROC. It’s just cathartism.
This thread is wild. All these “freedom and democracy” lovers apparently don’t know anything about China or Taiwan. Give Taiwan nukes? Insanity.
The way some of you talk about mainland Chinese people(like we’re brainwashed bugs, NPCs, or extensions of the state) is dehumanizing. Full stop. You don’t speak this way about Americans living under mass surveillance, police violence, and corporate rule.
I’ve definitely seen this type of rhetoric being directed at Americans more and more as our current president continues to fuck up everything.
Maybe, but it’s nowhere near the same scale or normalization. Say something positive about China(from infrastructure to poverty reduction)and it’s instantly “propaganda,” “brainwashed,” “you can’t trust anything from there.” Americans don’t get treated that way as a people. US media is taken as baseline reality despite massive corporate and state influence, while Chinese society unfortunately often gets dismissed wholesale as incapable of independent thought.
Hello friend, you seem to reasonable. Here’s a viewpoint from a Taiwanese. You will never see me say anything positive about China because you are an existential threat to our way of life. As individuals you all may be perfectly nice and lovely but as the bully next door we want nothing to do with you.
Out of curiosity, what specifically do you think would change in your daily life if Taiwan reintegrated and stopped functioning as a forward U.S. military platform? Concrete impacts like jobs, housing, healthcare, travel, civil rights as opposed to general terms like “freedom” that don’t really say much on their own would be preferred.
I would not be able to vote for my own leaders and representatives. Everything else (housing, healthcare, etc) can be fixed but once that is taken away we will have nothing.
Edit: I don’t agree that Taiwan is a vassal state or forward operating base for the Americans. Look at the US presence in Japan and Korea - if the Americans really viewed Taiwan (or if Taiwan viewed themselves being American lackeys) as being that important they would have sold us F-15s or other advanced weaponry like they did to Japan years ago and had actual bases here. I wish Taiwanese in general would show lesser favoritism to the Americans as a cultural and human rights sort of thing but when you have no real international relations you do what you must I suppose.
You do know the mainland does have voting, elections, and democracy right? It just operates differently from the vote every 3-6 years model. Representatives to local people’s congresses are directly elected, those bodies feed upward through provincial and national levels, and major legislation goes through consultation and revision processes before adoption. Participation is an ongoing process rather than a single national vote every few years. In my view, that is more substantive than simply choosing between parties every 3–6 years and then having limited influence afterward. There’s a reason long-running surveys (including work out of Harvard) have reported trust in the central government at over 90%. That level of confidence suggests many mainland citizens feel like me in that the system works well to represent us and our needs.
On the strategic question, Taiwan’s role is not defined by whether there are large permanent U.S. bases on the island. It sits at the center of what U.S. defense planners call the First Island Chain, a containment architecture stretching through Japan, Okinawa, Taiwan, and the Philippines. Because of its geography alone, Taiwan functions as a critical strategic node. The United States does not need to station F-15s there for the island to serve as a pressure point, intelligence platform, and potential staging area in a conflict scenario. Arms sales, training cooperation, and naval deployments in the surrounding waters reflect that structural reality. Whether one calls it a “forward base” or not, Taiwan occupies a central place in U.S. regional military planning. Americans call the island the unsinkable aircraft carrier for a reason.
I like how you claim to me in a separate comment that you’re just a smol neutral and don’t really care if Taiwan unifies or not, but are now lecturing an actual Taiwanese person who told you that they do not want to be part of the PRC that actually, they should and the PRC is wonderful.
Such chauvinism.
As a Chinese American that was born in China and almost got terminated by the One Child Policy, I want to let you know I stand with democracy.
台湾加油，抵抗中共！✊
🤝🤝🤝
To be clear, the stereotype of the dumb American is at least true since at least the Iraq War.
China should accept Taiwans sovereignty as a separate Chinese country, and stop being such a little bitch. The end.
Well Taiwan sees itself as part of mainland China, just not a part of the communist regime
Not really. Not many people in Taiwan really think that anymore. They’ve moved on.
How do you know?
Most people in Taiwan identify as Taiwanese over Chinese. Most people in Taiwan push for status-quo in polling, and of those that don’t, the second-most popular opinion is independence.
What, you truly think an island with the population of 23 million think its logistically possible for them to overcome an over a billion population difference and somehow take the mainland back under the banner of the ROC? The mainland also has nukes.
Removed by mod
Going by some other users claims in this thread, you replying to me here in another chain constitutes harassment.
40 comments denying this fact only to casually admit it to somebody else, what an absolute fucking troll.
No. It’s both reasonable to accept that most of the opinion poll responses say status-quo but also that it’s likely that this is heavily buffered by the geopolitical situation and that many of the ‘status quo’ respondents would like to seek independence, and this can be supported based on a number of other metrics that I have already mentioned to you.
Moreover, my point there was questioning the user above’s claim that the Taiwanese as a majority now seriously believe and want to somehow take the mainland back for the ROC.
Didn’t read.
Let me guess, you don’t think they have a legal claim to the island under UN law?
I don’t really care if they do, to be honest. I value self-determination more.
Are you implying UN law is even remotely relevant here? Or anywhere?
International law is what the CCP claims gives them the right. So no, I am not implying, I am stating it is relevant. Even if you disagree with the law, how do you expect this to be resolved peacefully without international law?
I don’t expect it to be resolved peacefully. Imperialism rarely is.
Edit: also, the UN is a joke. It’s just a tool the security council uses to bully other nations. It exists entirely for their benefit. This is like pointing to law under monarchy to support the king’s position. It’s totally circular.
Imperialism? How is this imperialism?
World power attempting to subordinate and subsume its neighbor by threats of invasion? How is it not imperialism?
Arguably the US’s defense of Taiwan is also imperialist but a more benign form than the CPC’s actions here. The Taiwanese people are just pawns in the struggle for global domination.
Please consult the graph:
Because imperialism isn’t when invasion. You really should learn what words mean before you use them. Imperialism is a capitalist phenomena where high stage capitalist powers enforce(through force or other means) unequal exchange and super exploitation upon subordinate nations to extract super profits. The PRC has never done that.
Are you unaware of the history of Taiwan? How it became “independent”?
Let me guess, you think the UN matters more than the people living there?
Nah, just think people who are ignorant of their own laws should think more before they make their ignorance more widely known.
Yes because the only possible reason someone might not support a law they live under, is because they are ignorant of it
Lets be realistic. If the confederates ran away to Key West after the civil war, would the US accept a hostile state, backed by a hostile super-power, claiming to be the government of all of USA right off their coast?
Not sure why you’re copping some hate, but your analogy is pretty accurate.
If the Confederates managed to hold out for 60 years, reformed, democratised and abandoned their past and wanted to renounce their claim to the USA and become their own independent state under their own identity - I would support them in that.
Albeit even then comparison isn’t quite right because Taiwan is closer to being the Union in this analogy, and the PRC the Confederates. It would be more like if the Union lost and fled to a safepost.
Taiwan is closer to being the Union in this analogy
mmyes, the defeated right-wing nationalist warlordists are the Union in this analogy. very good.
i would like to learn your secret: how do you become so informed on things you know nothing about?
mmyes, the defeated right-wing nationalist warlordists are the Union in this analogy. very good.
The comparison here is rooted who is the original compared to the two, not their ideologies. So in that sense, Taiwan would be the Union and Confederates would be the PRC.
Libs don’t actually care about the matter, they simply want to justify pre-existing positions, so anything that doesn’t support this feels hostile to them. In another comment thread I have someone who’s never been to Hong Kong asking me to provide citations about what HK is like.
What ‘pre-existing’ positions exactly?
In this case? <enemy of the west> bad. They don’t feel any need to learn about Taiwan or Xinjiang or HK or Tibet beyond its utility in proving this, and certainly don’t care how it might affect the actual people living there.
You can observe the same phenomenon with Russia; no matter the data, somehow its indicative of Russia bad and justification to increase hostile action, even at the expense of Russia’s victims.
I don’t think that HK, Xinjiang or Tibet are relevant here. My own position is that the Taiwanese don’t want to be part of the PRC. And that’s all that matters.
We have polling, it says the people of Taiwan overwhelmingly want staus quo. What they want doesn’t matter to you.
It’s not even key west it’s more like they ran away to Maine
They did even worse, they let them stay!
No? But then Taiwan doesn’t actually seriously maintain this anymore. It’s all a front. They have to say this because repudiating the ‘one China’ system could be interpreted as a declaration of independence, which would be interpreted as a green light for China to invade.
They do like in that Starfleet Academy episode where they fake a war to satisfy everyone’s honor and just pretend everything is OK
Taiwan need to stop claiming they are the legitimate government of China.
China need to recognise that Taiwan isn’t part of China anymore.
Neither will happen.
Or one of the two collapses and the other one assumes power. Taiwan could concede which I don’t hope they do but technically its possible.
its kinda wierd how they claim it, when initially they were just as brutal as the ccp early days.
Taiwan would stop claiming it tomorrow officially, but China would see that as a declaration of independence and justification to invade.
just as brutal
Theres a difference between brutality in response to millenia of oppression and brutality against anyone who might not want to continue that oppression.
Thats not to say the CPC was some perfectly just machine, but the two are qualitatively different. Would you say the French og revolutionaries were just as brutal as the bourbons?
Freedom for Taiwan and Hong Kong.
Tiber and Xinjiag too
And while we’re at it, decolonize Polynesia.
Someone who threatens war to acquire land is not the good guy. Fuck them.
Yes I realize this also references you know who as well.
this also references you know who
No, I don’t know who. Is it Donald Trump? Vladimir Putin? Benjamin Netanyahu? Could be any of them.
Maybe it references all of them
Given human history, I think it references everyone. That’s not a dig, more acknowledgment that this isn’t actually new.
While I don’t claim to be an expert on the subject, the only peaceful outcome I can see is actually just a continuation of the status quo, where mainland China uses “reunification” messaging as little more than a show of strength and patriotic political rhetoric, and where the Western world continues to treat Taiwan’s independence with “strategic ambiguity” while hinting to China that any attempt to take Taiwan will be met with a large scale Western response from the US and allies.
I do think that the West wants Russia’s attempted invasion of Ukraine to be a sign of what China should expect if they were to attempt to annex Taiwan. It won’t be easy, it’ll throw trade and supply chains into absolute chaos, and it’ll be met with harsh economic sanctions and large weapons deals at the very least. The West wants China to feel that there is very little upside to attacking Taiwan, and that it’s much more reasonable to maintain the status quo (though arguably, tariffs and trade wars needlessly remove some of the US’s economic leverage over China).
Rhetoric aside, how much chaos and bloodshed is China really willing to tolerate just for the pyrric victory of finishing what Mao started almost a century ago?
I think the main hope for peace is that Xi and the ruling members of the CCP feel that it’s in their personal best interest to talk a big game while doing the bare minimum to disrupt the systems that they currently benefit from.
反攻大陆 (Counterattack the mainland) 😏
/just kidding
I think the only peaceful unification would be if CCP falls and mainland China becomes an actual democracy with free and fair elections, then mainland, HK, Taiwan can form a union, where Taiwan and HK remains autonomous regions for domestic politics (and this automony would be backed by a constitution) and have a common front for defence.
I mean another option would be complete sovereignty but a European Union type of thing where they do cooperate and sort of is like a country, but maintain the option to leave.
But regardless, I think it all comes down to what HKers and Taiwanese want, you need a referrendum for these types of things. I’d say to have legitimacy: Two consecutive referrendums in two separate regularly scheduled election with majority approval before any plan is enacted, to attempt to prevent a Brexit shenanigan.
I’m Chinese American so while I do support democracy, I am kinda leaning towards reunification assuming that there is actually democracy, but again it all comes down to what the people think, the will of the people is more important than my opinions.
Since you’re Chinese American, I have a question that’s doubly offensive but I’m actually interested in hearing your opinion. Should borders the size of China and the U.S. continue to exist at all? IMO one president or central government can’t legitimately represent hundreds of millions of people.
