President Biden had a short message for Taiwan after its election of a new president on Saturday. “We do not support independence,” Biden said on the South Lawn Saturday. Taiwan voters elected Vice…
What the fuck is it so hard for a politician to say
" Our relationship and diplomacy with china is too Precarious for us to openly support taiwan. While we value democracy internationally, we are not willing Take a stance on that issue for that reason."
At least it would be honest everyone knows that’s the deal.
This is like when your spouse asks you “do I look fat?” Then you respond with:
"My relationship with your appearance is too precarious for me to openly support commenting on it. While I value a healthy BMI, I am not willing to take a stance on that issue for that reason.”
Because everyone knows what they mean and changes in wording are negotiated and set off diplomatic tizzies. I studied international relations and every word is negotiated by ambassadors or state department employees and presidents just say them.
It would be like someone saying they support American Samoa independence. You’d basically be telling the US that its territories should be independent nations, which the UN recognizes as “a dick move”.
What happens if Taiwan attempts full autonomy or China attempts full control might be a different story, though. We’ll have to see how trade is going at that point.
Agreed. The idea that the US should be saying it supports Taiwanese independence when Taiwan doesn’t is just a very silly take.
Whatever change in status happens or doesn’t happen in Taiwan in the coming years or decades needs to start from the will of Taiwan. There’s no reason for the US to be dictating it.
If American Samoa had been an independent country for the last 75 years, operating pretty much completely independently, had 23 million people, claimed not to be ruled by the US, and other people were saying “we recognize that it has been independent for decades at this point” then it’d be comparable.
What happens if Taiwan attempts full autonomy or China attempts full control
Are you implying Taiwan isn’t already fully autonomous? Or that China has any control over Taiwan…?
You are really simplifying the ROC vs PRC situation and leaving out a mountain of important context here.
Are you implying Taiwan isn’t already fully autonomous?
Implying? I’m not implying anything. But for clarity’s sake I’ll say very clearly that Taiwan was part of China, China still considers Taiwan part of China, and Taiwan disputes this. Largely because the ROC leadership fled mainland China to Taiwan, and after the 1980s largely because of their economic power.
In either case, my comparison seems fine still. In fact, if you go back to the Samoan Civil War, my example works even better than you realized. What happens if Samoa says they still control American Samoa and they want their islands back? Pretty much the same situation as PRC vs ROC, but 55 years earlier.
What do the people of Samoa want? As an American I want to know what they want, this is the first in my almost 50 year of life I’ve even heard the idea. (and about the 10th time total I’ve heard of them at all - they are not often in the news or discussions)
By contrast Puerto Rico I hear of a lot, but so far as I can tell the people the there are divided and so I guess status quo is just as good/bad as everything else - but this is only because they don’t agree on what they want, if they did I’d support it.
Lat I heard the independence supporters (claimed!) that the votes were not fair and so they stayed home. I’m not really in position to look into it. I’m all in favor of statehood if they want it.
Long story short, Puerto Rico doesn’t want to leave the USA. All of the choices the people tend to sincerely consider (regardless of reason) are some sort of deep relationship with the US mainland, whether statehood, status quo, or Free Association.
That’s the long-standing baseline of the past 70 years
Samoa and American Samoa are two different places. Samoa is an internationally recognized nation whereas American Samoa is a US territory. So in this case asking what Samoa wants is equivalent to asking what China wants to happen to Taiwan.
By contrast Puerto Rico
Puerto Ricans are considered US citizens, whereas people from American Samoa not born on a US military base are NOT US citizens. Because the territory is messy, and the politics are complex, because the history is messy and complex. You can thank Germany and the US for that between Samoa and American Samoa.
They are still debating, they were generally ok with the status quo because they were US nationals and thus were not subject to the full constatution, but I haven’t checked on Samoa since citizenship was thrust on them, doubt they’d be happy
What the fuck is it so hard for a politician to say " Our relationship and diplomacy with china is too Precarious for us to openly support taiwan. While we value democracy internationally, we are not willing Take a stance on that issue for that reason."
At least it would be honest everyone knows that’s the deal.
This is like when your spouse asks you “do I look fat?” Then you respond with:
"My relationship with your appearance is too precarious for me to openly support commenting on it. While I value a healthy BMI, I am not willing to take a stance on that issue for that reason.”
Somehow, I imagine that would still get you in trouble.
Because everyone knows what they mean and changes in wording are negotiated and set off diplomatic tizzies. I studied international relations and every word is negotiated by ambassadors or state department employees and presidents just say them.
It would be like someone saying they support American Samoa independence. You’d basically be telling the US that its territories should be independent nations, which the UN recognizes as “a dick move”.
What happens if Taiwan attempts full autonomy or China attempts full control might be a different story, though. We’ll have to see how trade is going at that point.
Agreed. The idea that the US should be saying it supports Taiwanese independence when Taiwan doesn’t is just a very silly take.
Whatever change in status happens or doesn’t happen in Taiwan in the coming years or decades needs to start from the will of Taiwan. There’s no reason for the US to be dictating it.
Not really a good comparison.
If American Samoa had been an independent country for the last 75 years, operating pretty much completely independently, had 23 million people, claimed not to be ruled by the US, and other people were saying “we recognize that it has been independent for decades at this point” then it’d be comparable.
Are you implying Taiwan isn’t already fully autonomous? Or that China has any control over Taiwan…?
You are really simplifying the ROC vs PRC situation and leaving out a mountain of important context here.
Implying? I’m not implying anything. But for clarity’s sake I’ll say very clearly that Taiwan was part of China, China still considers Taiwan part of China, and Taiwan disputes this. Largely because the ROC leadership fled mainland China to Taiwan, and after the 1980s largely because of their economic power.
In either case, my comparison seems fine still. In fact, if you go back to the Samoan Civil War, my example works even better than you realized. What happens if Samoa says they still control American Samoa and they want their islands back? Pretty much the same situation as PRC vs ROC, but 55 years earlier.
What do the people of Samoa want? As an American I want to know what they want, this is the first in my almost 50 year of life I’ve even heard the idea. (and about the 10th time total I’ve heard of them at all - they are not often in the news or discussions)
By contrast Puerto Rico I hear of a lot, but so far as I can tell the people the there are divided and so I guess status quo is just as good/bad as everything else - but this is only because they don’t agree on what they want, if they did I’d support it.
Last I heard Puerto Ricans largely supported statehood, not independence.
Lat I heard the independence supporters (claimed!) that the votes were not fair and so they stayed home. I’m not really in position to look into it. I’m all in favor of statehood if they want it.
Long story short, Puerto Rico doesn’t want to leave the USA. All of the choices the people tend to sincerely consider (regardless of reason) are some sort of deep relationship with the US mainland, whether statehood, status quo, or Free Association.
That’s the long-standing baseline of the past 70 years
Samoa and American Samoa are two different places. Samoa is an internationally recognized nation whereas American Samoa is a US territory. So in this case asking what Samoa wants is equivalent to asking what China wants to happen to Taiwan.
Puerto Ricans are considered US citizens, whereas people from American Samoa not born on a US military base are NOT US citizens. Because the territory is messy, and the politics are complex, because the history is messy and complex. You can thank Germany and the US for that between Samoa and American Samoa.
They are still debating, they were generally ok with the status quo because they were US nationals and thus were not subject to the full constatution, but I haven’t checked on Samoa since citizenship was thrust on them, doubt they’d be happy
Putting international pressure on Taiwan to declare independence is not openly supporting them.
Because you only get one message. There’s no way to speak only to one group of people.
Because it’s completely fucking obvious and no president need say it.
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