I feel this is mostly a criticism of “right-wing anti-inceldom”, I hope no one farther left of an average Reddit user has to read this. I think not reproducing toxic masculinity should be obvious?
Left-wing anti-inceldom should still be practiced ofc
I’m not keeping a weirdo with bad energy in my circle when I’ve spent nearly half my life trying to purge myself of patriarchal brainworms; especially not when said weirdo repeatedly rebuffs my attempts to get him to see right. Like, you can only burn your hands on a hot stove so many times before you decide “y’know what, nah, I’m over it; have a good life-- or as close to one as you can ig”. You are who you chill with; and I’m not tryna wake up with fleas.
The only people I keep around me are those tryna grow and self-improve. If an incel actually wants to get on that motion, cool, more power to him; but I’m not wasting breath or effort on somebody who’s gone out of their way to either rebuff or outright denigrate my viewpoints.
This is what i feel about you sex havers
This thread makes it clear that half of the otherwise socially hyper-aware leftists are completely clueless about what incels are and how they are made, and how easy it can be to bring them out of it with some guidance and hand holding. I’m guessing most of you are anglos with bully culture ingrained in you since school. A very small fraction of incels are psychopathic forever-misogynists.
Removed by mod
I think a good portion of people here did not read the article. The insults about Destiny’s masculinity are gross, and an example of what the article is talking about.
Not a bad article. It’s important to make the distinction that, while some people are misogynists and don’t have sex, those traits aren’t exclusively found together. Some people who are technically incels are otherwise normal, and a lot of misogynists are in relationships. Belittling a man for not having sex reinforces patriarchal ideals that not having sex as a man makes you a failure.
All that said, there are a lot of very loud misogynist incels online, and they deserve what they’ve brought on themselves. It’s just good to target your insults in such a way that their misogyny is the focus.
The rise of “inceldom” as a social phenomena was inevitable with the destruction of non-transactional social spaces and general alienation brought about by capitalism.
It’s tempting to think that these people are struggling exactly because they’re horrible misogynists, but historically tons of misogynistic people have still had sex and relationships. Bluntly, even the Golden State Killer was married at one point, and had children.
Life is materially and socially worse for a lot of people. I’ve made this same post basically every time this comes up, but where are the places where people can just hang out publicly, without being harassed by the cops or expected to spend money they might not afford to spend, just to socialize? If you cannot meaningfully socialize, you have little hope of getting a relationship or even just sex.
For many USians at least (can’t speak for other countries) dating starts to suck waaaay more ass once you’re out of school. The post-school options people are generally aware of are: Dating apps (which suck ass and seem to be a potent vector for extreme mental illness), bars and clubs (which cost money and suck if you don’t drink or you have anxiety about being compromised around strangers), and that’s basically it.
Lack of social spaces necessarily produces lack of sex and relationships. It will get worse before it gets better.
Lack of social spaces necessarily produces lack of sex and relationships. It will get worse before it gets better.
I feel this every day
I wonder how long it will be before the “it gets better” stage. Will I be so old that I don’t even have a desire to date or get sex?
but gaming and other online locations like chats is also a social space and these very guys go to great effort to ensure it is not even tolerable much less welcoming to women.
It’s objectively an inferior form of socialization compared to real life (brain releases different chemicals in the two scenarios). It’s not a full substitute
I’m guilty of saying “I have a bf” as a knee jerk reaction to random guys invading my space like inviting themselves to sit with me or something ngl.
But just as much I don’t bring my bf up around guys who give off a particularly energy. I’m scared they’ll lash out if they find out I’m “not theirs for the taking” and instead i just get away as quickly as I can.
Every friend i have who dates men has a story like this.
(god I realise that sounds like him lmao)Don’t know how I feel about having to engage and teach feminism to the later group when I’m scared to even be honest around them.
I think you shoulr just beat them with a bat like Aubrey when they get within 3pft of you, like an AoE trigger
I want to but I feel like I need to go through my brave girl character arc still.
You can practice by ending my misery
Here, take this bat
I’ll use it to dub thee anew, what would you like your title and name to be?
Wait thats harry dubois not a bat
dumb rant
I wonder how many people have spent some time on incel forums. I have, though I never self-identified as an incel (I only looked at these forums out of curiosity while I happened to be dating someone) and an interesting thing about them is that they spend way more time than you would think not talking about women. Yeah, they mostly talk about women, but there were a lot of threads that were like “When I go to the grocery store, everyone gives me strange looks. They think I’m disgusting and they’re probably right.”
I think people ignore how these incel communities are an indoctrination process that prey on the severely mentally ill, racial minorities, and actual children. It’s not just an evil that bursts from someone’s heart when they spontaneously choose to be a reactionary after getting turned down twice. It’s a somewhat-elaborate ideology that people, often minorities of some kind, are taught to believe, using their histories of trauma (as in spending a 7+ years being bullied, not not getting laid) as “evidence” that the world is just like this, maybe even on an evolutionary basis, and they are encouraged to hold on to this false consciousness by their peers standing in so-called solidarity with them. These same peers make a contest of who can devise the most soul-crushing posts to encourage catastrophizing and suicidality in each other (“rope fuel”), but I guess that’s what false consciousness gets you.
I don’t really know what my purpose in saying this is, I just tend to feel bad for the people abused by this cult, and yes, that’s with having read some of their repulsive fantasies (though obviously I struggle to feel bad for the specific people who post those). Obviously they need re-education. Obviously. But I think your prospects of re-educating someone are going to be pretty poor if you don’t understand their motivations and their context. You can’t just fucking Ludovico Technique Mao into their brains and overwrite what is there. Reaction and false consciousness are a knot to be untied, and you can’t get past the problem by trying to cut through it instead of unraveling it.
In revolutionary circumstances, fascists should be shot on the basis of practical expedience. Once the dust is settled, if you have the resources to imprison someone and you still choose to execute them, you’re a sicko. If you can re-educate them and you choose to have them rot in prison, you’re a sicko. Treating people, including the followers of a reactionary movement, as just an uncomplicated evil that exists only for you to inflict pain or death on it is itself reactionary. As communists, yes, quite a number of people will need to die as a matter of winning the revolution, but when we have someone who can be a good member of society – and that means basically everyone, even the people we both dislike – and we choose to treat them with cruelty out of our own ignorance or a malice we might not even acknowledge exists, we’ve already begun to take the wrong path.
On average, who do you think was the bigger reactionary? One of these not-fucking fuckers, or Emperor Puyi? The one who collaborated with the KMT and Imperial Japan and opened the gates to a marauding occupation China that I’d need to CW to say anything about? Who has done more to “deserve” punishment? This may be controversial, but I think it’s Puyi. So what did Mao do with him? Shoot him? Torture him? No, most of you reading this know that he was re-educated and Mao saw it as a meaningful victory for the CPC that they were able to turn this depraved figure into a good citizen of the new China. Mao was right, and the CPC and WPK were right to take the Americans they captured in the Korean War and do their best to re-educate them, despite knowing the US military was a heinous organization full of wildly violent racists. [Don’t tell me there was a draft, there is no equivalency between some prison time and slaughtering countless civilians.]
I will repeat Marx’s motto until I die: “Nothing human is alien to me.” It should be the aspiration of any communist, even if we all acknowledge that many of those people need to die* nonetheless, that’s just the nature of a revolutionary war. Not a single death should be because they “deserve it,” but only because the rest of us need it to happen to end the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, to protect our vulnerable comrades, etc. etc.
But most of all I just wanted to procrastinate from finals. And before you ask, no, I did not watch the video.
IMO this just comes across as Feminist tailism. Are incels (as in the original definition of incels, not Tate adjacent men) failed by the patriarchy? Yes. Is it correct to still reject them, keep them away due to the danger they pose? Also yes. To any degree to which incels have ever organized with each other as communities of men who are frustrated with being denied their slice of the pie, they’re a reactionary force and opposing them has been the right move.
Incels represent a crack in the reality of Patriarchy. They are a reactionary departure from its logic. In rejecting the project of claiming women, abusing them, and upholding their place as men, they negate patriarchy, yet they are far from a progressive splinter since they still define themselves in the shadow of what they actually expect masculine self actualization to mean, doing those exact same things. The negation of the negation of the original incel is the current incel, the Tate adjacent types, that actually come back to hegemonic masculinity with redoubled force, the “sigma males” who are even more antisocial than the prototypical patriarchs the original incel failed to become.
If the feminist movement attracted incels through its promise of abolishing the patriarchy, they would have to abandon the label and radicalize their view of gender. It’s on them to catch up; slowing down and trying to make space for them inside feminism is putting the cart before the horse.
Did you actually read the article here, or just the headline/first couple lines?
The actual conclusion presented by it, honestly doesn’t seem that distinct from your own.
long quote
The current violent incel communities frame themselves as despised sons, who have been denied the fruits of patriarchy. And anti-incels…frame incels as despised sons, who have been denied the fruits of patriarchy. Incels think they’ve been treated unfairly and anti incels think they’ve been treated fairly. But that’s a cosmetic difference. The core agreement is that men who aren’t racking up points in patriarchy by dating women are failing as men.
That core agreement is false. The problem with incels is that they are violent misogynists who have created an identity around violent misogyny. The problem with incels is not that they have failed as men.
Because, contra patriarchy, there is no way to fail at being a man. There are lots of ways of being a man, and none of them leave you being more or less of a man. You can fail at being a good person by trying to be patriarchy’s idea of a man—but that’s a significantly different issue.
I did read the whole article and found the conclusion to be pretty decent, but I wrote my comment because it didn’t sit right with me that the article never explicitly rejected the idea that feminism needs to carve out space for incels now.
In rejecting the project of claiming women, abusing them, and upholding their place as men, they negate patriarchy
Do they actually reject these things? My impression is they yearn for those things but have convinced themselve it’s not for them (in a I am not one of god’s chosen sort of sense).
They don’t reject them as goals worth pursuing in general, but generally have given up hope of ever achieving them for themselves.
incels belong in the gamer pit if they can’t be rehabilitated
I think nowadays the term incel has long been divorced from the literal “involuntary celibate” definition
People like Andrew Tate and Destiny gives off so much incel energy despite probably having a higher body count than 99% of men
Yeah Lauren Southern been one of destiny’s flings
it just makes my skin crawlThere’s no way Destiny’s body count goes beyond counting on one hand
He used to be a swinger lol
I agree, there’s no way Destiny’s body count goes beyond his hand.
Unfortunately he has a kid
Penetration is not required for pregnancy
I don’t get why incels exist tbh when you can go into literally any kink community right now and find 5 people that want to sub for practically anyone in like 10 minutes.
It really strikes me as being at least partially self inflicted, like the sex is just supposed to happen with nothing else involved? It strikes me that there’s some sort of knowledge or effort barrier that they refuse to cross or that they don’t understand or mistake the correct steps involved in getting from A to B.
For a lot of incels, they basically need a female sex therapist, as in a therapist where sex is part of the therapy. They essentially need a female sex tutor who teaches them how to have sex. They are stuck in a vicious cycle of insecurity about sex due to inexperience in sex leading to further insecurity about sex, and for most of them, the hole they dug themselves in is deep enough that they can’t get out without someone rescuing them.
We have dance classes to teach people how to dance so someone who might be insecure or shy about dancing can practice dancing in a relatively nonjudgmental environment and acquire enough dancing skill that the insecurity gets mitigated. Improv performances also fulfill a similar role with socialization. People are placed in an environment where they have to be extroverts, but it’s a performance so whatever potential faux pas is written off as part of the act.
There’s no equivalent for sex. We don’t have blowjob classes where students practice oral sex by fellating a dildo. We don’t have “how to eat out a chick” classes where the students practice eating out a ciswoman while the tutor is there coaching the students on what to do and what to not do. This is just not how our society is arranged.
Incels are of course vicious misogynists, and the misogyny is what caused them to begin digging the hole. But at a certain point, the hole keeps on getting dug because of their insecurity and even if they were radicalized away from reactionary politics, the insecurity still exists and the hole will still be dug. Reading Marx doesn’t make some hangups about sex go away.
I don’t get why incels exist tbh when you can go into literally any kink community right now and find 5 people that want to sub for practically anyone in like 10 minutes.
I don’t know of any local kink community I can just walk into. Especially as a single man, lol
Real; I had to be a woman’s +1 to even start making a name last time I fucked with those scenes.
I went through my own incel period in my teens and its effectively a self perpetuating cycle of bitterness that makes you fundamentally miserable to be around that’s the entire blocker for dating. But with a combination of misogyny, low self esteem, toxic masculinity brainworms and possibly a bit of neurodivergence and confusion with sexuality/identity can kinda just turn into a bit of a psychological mess that other incels and nazis will try to take advantage of to drag you down even further.
The way out was first unseating misogyny to stop blaming women for my own predicament. Followed by finding out I am autistic which made dating and life in general hard mode. Followed then by realising I despised toxic masculine ideals, had absolutely no interest in casual hookups or looking like a “player” and never wanted to be like that and cast aside the entire identity of “man”. Followed by finding out i actually just preferred dating men and found a boyfriend.
That’s my experience it probably won’t line up to anyone elses but maybe it can provide some understanding to some people’s perspective. But the short is being an incel is a self reinforcing hate cycle that makes you absolutely horrible to be near to most people
I’ve known (emphasis on the known) a fare few guys who toe’d the incel line if not went all in.
All of them were cute, not one of them was physically undateable like that is even the most important thing (any guys reading its really 100% not). One was even like the hottest guy in our wider group.
All of them were fucking weird about women and blamed women for only liking dickhead guys and not nice guys like them.
It was 100% a them problem.
If they didn’t have too high standards and rejected any girls who did look past their bs, they would go for people already taken and it’s like WHAT ARE YOU DOING?!
This has been my experience. I actually haven’t met an incel who looks as bad as they seem to think they look in order to be undateable, but the personal behaviour and attitudes of the person were not good.
The world of dating is too dangerous for anyone not cis het male and white and who the hell would risk their safety and take a chance on someone who blatantly blames women for their woes when even the more “normal” ones can pop off.
It’s just not worth it ever.
They could also spend a modest sum and get off that way. There are at least two major things that I think you’re missing:
A lot of them want a partner who they can be emotionally intimate with, not just someone to fuck. A simple proof that doesn’t involve us both needing to look at their forums is that they have a popular acronym “KHHV,” or “kissless, hand-holdless virgin” which I think is used partly to emphasize their literal distance from women, but also to communicate closeness they are lacking besides the sex. If all I want is to fuck people, what do I give a shit about holding someone’s hand? This is also part of why trad shit so easily gained traction there, because it was basically viewed (falsely) as a guarantee to have a partner that you could emotionally invest in and they wouldn’t leave you (there are many ways this is wrong, of course)*
The second thing, as I mention in my dumb rant in this thread, is that incel communities are highly predatory cults. They prey on the mentally ill, racial minorities (particularly Asians), and literal children. They take your trauma** and convince you that it’s just what the world is for someone like you. It’s not about whether you can objectively access sex (again, escorts exist), it’s about hating yourself and, through that, hating everyone outside of your new group of “allies”.
Also, like, nothing against kink, but a fair number of people – especially the sexually inexperienced – are really not into basically any of it. Also I think the huge number of subs is more a gay community thing (I’ve been told there’s a top shortage), but I wouldn’t know since I’m one of those vanilla hets.
*While I believe these pieces of evidence do point to my conclusion, I recognize they are unconvincing. The real reason I believe it is because I spent some time on incel boards (I was never an incel) and the level of sentimentality about relationships, about being told “I love you” and so on was off the charts.
**in the former two cases. With the kids, it’s just straightforward ideological grooming
A lot of them want a partner who they can be emotionally intimate with, not just someone to fuck. A simple proof that doesn’t involve us both needing to look at their forums is that they have a popular acronym “KHHV,” or “kissless, hand-holdless virgin” which I think is used partly to emphasize their literal distance from women, but also to communicate closeness they are lacking besides the sex.
The level of intimacy they yearn for is created over months, the sex is usually much earlier. So perhaps part of the problem is that they mentally have the cart before the horse, the order of things that are supposed to happen is incorrect in their heads and therefore they fail the whole dating thing because it doesn’t match with the material reality and issues occur interacting with others over this.
The second thing, as I mention in my dumb rant in this thread, is that incel communities are highly predatory cults. They prey on the mentally ill, racial minorities (particularly Asians), and literal children. They take your trauma** and convince you that it’s just what the world is for someone like you. It’s not about whether you can objectively access sex (again, escorts exist), it’s about hating yourself and, through that, hating everyone outside of your new group of “allies”.
Yes I agree with the cult aspect.
Also, like, nothing against kink, but a fair number of people – especially the sexually inexperienced – are really not into basically any of it. Also I think the huge number of subs is more a gay community thing (I’ve been told there’s a top shortage), but I wouldn’t know since I’m one of those vanilla hets.
Yeah so they yearn for a specific kind of traditionally romantic relationship, probably learned from patriarchal television, movies and dramas, which doesn’t actually spontaneously exist in the real modern world anymore outside of teenagers or rare random occurrences of two people with chemistry hitting it off. And even then the two people with chemistry get down to fucking before they get down to any kind of deeply involved romantic intimacy after months of building emotional bonds and closeness.
The other side of this is that they’re so misogynistic how the fuck do they expect to get that romantically close to someone before they realise how awful they are?
The other side of this is that they’re so misogynistic how the fuck do they expect to get that romantically close to someone before they realise how awful they are?
they’re stuck in a doom loop of terrible self esteem and self fulfilling prophecy. Anyone from the outside looking in can look at the situation and say “Why don’t you just?” but they’re trainwrecks, they probably need therapy to escape it. Well that probably works for like pre-2010 normal teenager who is scared of girls and can’t get laid type of situation, now we have the fent of inceldom thanks to 4chan or whatever started it. Probably need some sort of detox from the internet plus therapy.
:idiot-doom-spiral:
I wouldn’t really know since I’ve only ever had “traditional” relationships, but I’m pretty sure they still exist. Most of the people I know (which is now mid twenties at the youngest up to near 40) are in romantic relationships or want to be, it’s not just hook-ups out there. Like, don’t get me wrong, thinking about how to find a way to get into a romantic relationship again makes me want to CW, but that’s partly because it was already really difficult for someone like me and it’s getting more difficult as I get older . . . Anyway, of all the things we can blame them for, I think not wanting to fuck men and now wanting to, idk, whip and step on people? is really it. Incidentally, one of the veins of discourse in the incel community is basically doing conversion therapy to become gay because they believe that it’s way easier on average for a dude to get laid if he’s gay. I’ve never seen someone report that the converted themselves, though.
The other side of this is that they’re so misogynistic how the fuck do they expect to get that romantically close to someone before they realise how awful they are?
Well, they didn’t become such sickos until after they already had their negative experiences, at which point they’ve usually given up and made sexual frustration their religion. There’s no contradiction in this specific point, even if there’s a lot of short-sightedness, dehumanization, reaction, etc.
Edit:
The level of intimacy they yearn for is created over months, the sex is usually much earlier. So perhaps part of the problem is that they mentally have the cart before the horse, the order of things that are supposed to happen is incorrect in their heads and therefore they fail the whole dating thing because it doesn’t match with the material reality and issues occur interacting with others over this.
Not to keep playing reverse “Spot the Contradiction,” but you need to remember that these are people who generally have never had a girlfriend. Period. They might get a first date or two and then get ghosted. In the context of a first date, do you think that for a het woman, a man more interested in emotionality than sex is somehow a red flag? Like yeah, if he’s trauma dumping to you while you’re at the diner and you don’t even really know him, that’s probably not gonna fly, but if anything I would think emotionality that is somewhat in check and deprioritizing sex would be considered substantial positives for these guys as candidates. Unfortunately for them, most of them never even got that far and the other ones found some other way (probably prioritizing sex in many cases) to fuck it up.
Aaaaa nooooooooo
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You can’t convert to being gay, sexuality is fluid sure but if someone finds relief in dating men they didn’t successfully convert themselves, they were just a repressed queer person. That’s legitimising conversion therapy but the opposite way round.
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No, nobody is happy to hear straight people are “converting themselves queer” if it’s because of mental health and trauma. That’s awful. I want all queer people to be happy, not forced by some self hatred.
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No gay men don’t get it easier, it’s just as difficult/easy for them, this is a wild bit of homophobia. They aren’t more promiscuous or sex having. Just as many sit on the Internet being horny as straight men do and not getting laid like everyone else.
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We don’t apologise for fascists here for getting radicised, we have nuanced conversations about how radicalisation happens i hope. Inceldom is classified as an extremist ideology. If people want to reform from it then they have to take ownership of themselves and their behaviours to some degree, not look for imo whataboutisms regarding an ideology that’s lead to multiple mass shootings, murders, redacted etc of women.
Maybe I don’t get what you mean but to me it seems like you underestimate how scary this ideology is to women given how damaging and harmful it can be. It’s gone beyond sad boys getting ghosted and venting on the Internet.
Sorry maybe I’m speaking from my own trauma here but this stuff is so scary.
You might be happy to know, though, that one of the veins of discourse in the incel community is basically doing conversion therapy to become gay because they believe (I think correctly) that it’s way easier on average for a dude to get laid if he’s gay. I’ve never seen someone report that the converted themselves, though.
This paragraph i’m referencing, nope nope nope.
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I wasn’t weighing in on whether their conversion ideas were legitimate or not, merely saying that some people talked about pursuing it.
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I was being facetious, I apologize if I upset you. It might have been insensitive of me. I’ll remove that part.
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I think the logic goes that lots of dudes want, whether by social conditioning or natural libido or whatever, to fuck anything that walks. Lots of women, for the same reasons, don’t. Therefore, if someone wants to have sex, they should have sex with men. It’s not about gay men being more libidinal than straight men, it’s about men being more libidinal than women. Again, their logic, not mine. Hopefully you don’t see this as defensive, since it’s not like conversion is a key pillar of their ideology, it’s just something that pops up conversationally here and there.
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I never excused their actions, I merely want to understand it causally and sometimes to help others make sense of it. The problem with their ideology is that it is reactionary, not that it is extremist; we’re extremists, too! I get how you take me for an apologist (though I’m not), but I don’t get how you took anything I said to be a “whataboutism”.
I’m not particularly aware of the violence it has caused beyond the mass shootings, but I’ve read some of their violent fantasizing on their board and I won’t reprint it even with a CW. I know that this is a dangerous “culture” (network of cults) with a bad ideology, the point isn’t to say that it isn’t bad. But if you’re really serious about acting against them, it’s important to understand how they work and where their motivations come from, you can’t just make shit up or hastily string faulty inferences together and then have it be unassailable because challenging this negative claim is de facto apologetics. It doesn’t make any sense.
Now of course, if you read my dumb rant (which I don’t encourage, I think it’ll just upset you), I do admit that I personally feel bad for the more sad boy contingent of them, just as I feel bad for a friend of mine who got brought into a more literal cult and now recruits more victims, even though I also condemn their actions and basically everything they do or think at this point. However, my feelings might motivate my attention to this issue, but I do not justify anything with those feelings as that would be absurd and no one here would even understand it, much less agree. It would also be poor reasoning. Ultimately, what I want is the best outcome for the most people, which statistically means mainly that people should be protected from incels, but it also means that – insofar as logistics allow it – the incels should be put in re-education camps rather than on death row, and they don’t need to repent first, they just need to be put somewhere where they can’t hurt anyone and then learn why they should repent.
This paragraph i’m referencing, nope nope nope.
I understood before, but the particularly offensive content has been removed
By the way, you don’t need to apologize for voicing concerns, it is a good thing to do.
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It’s ridiculous and should only be condemned. It’s concerning that the foundation of some of these people is belief in conversion therapy. Sorry for implying you did.
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Probably
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This gets said a lot but most gay men I know are vers/switch and don’t have hard and fast rules in actual dating relationships. The top shortage thing is probably more to do with hookups because for a hookup people usually have an idea about what they want which is to be railed.
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Please don’t insinuate im an extremist, I yap on a lefty forum on an account I made during a particularly bad period and don’t do any violence or have any plans or desires or wishes to harm anyone, call me a lib. Conflating that with people who actively wish death on women is wild.
But if you’re really serious about acting against them, it’s important to understand how they work and where their motivations come from, you can’t just make shit up or hastily string faulty inferences together and then have it be unassailable because challenging this negative claim is de facto apologetics. It doesn’t make any sense.
Excuse me?
You have no idea who i am, what i do, what I’ve read or studied etc. That’s just an assumption you just made.
Sorry I didn’t prep for a debate on the motivations of violence towards women in that clique of men and have all my references and citations ready to go.
I didn’t see you as an apologist more someone who’s missing half the picture on this issue by virtue of being a man and not the victim of the chain of violence. And also made some dodgy comments i replied to.
I had read the rest of your comments and others before I replied. I only commented cos of the things I initially called out.
It’s not like I haven’t read or taken anything in and I don’t like how you assume I’ve dismissed it. I do talk to men in real life. I have spoken and listened to others, I do have a boyfriend who has a voice and opinion too. I wasn’t planning to spend all night effort posting either.
Please don’t insinuate im an extremist, I yap on a lefty forum on an account I made during a particularly bad period and don’t do any violence or have any plans or desires or wishes to harm anyone, call me a lib. Conflating that with people who actively wish death on women is wild.
I just wanna point out that we don’t really wish for violence, we simply know that it’s going to come to us. The bourgeoisie will not give up their power willingly and will use extreme violence to keep that power. The violence of the revolutionary left is self-defence in that regard as far as I’m concerned. Especially if you ever read The Jakarta Method it just becomes plainly obvious.
Conflating that with people who actively wish death on women is wild.
I was going to say that if you accused me of equivocating, I swear on me mum. The extreme right and the extreme left are both extremes, people who adhere to either are extremists. Extremism isn’t an ideology or a value, it’s a descriptor of how an ideology relates to the status quo (i.e. being really far away). Unless you meant I was equivocating liberals [on a leftist website] with incels, which would make less sense. I just didn’t know you were a lib since almost no one with a HB account identifies that way.
Excuse me?
I should have phrased it more carefully, but I wasn’t actually referring to you with that comment. Remember this is all based on you responding to me saying other stuff, there was more context than just us talking, and it’s a bad habit of this board (and, admittedly, people in general) to make hasty assumptions about their opposition. I’ve been getting in trouble with using the general “you” a lot; I need to figure out how to signal things more clearly.
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whataboutism 
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I wouldn’t really know since I’ve only ever had “traditional” relationships, but I’m pretty sure they still exist. Most of the people I know (which is now mid twenties at the youngest up to near 40) are in romantic relationships or want to be, it’s not just hook-ups out there. Like, don’t get me wrong, thinking about how to find a way to get into a romantic relationship again makes me want to CW, but that’s partly because it was already really difficult for someone like me and it’s getting more difficult as I get older . . .
I think you’ve misunderstood me. When I say “traditional” I mean like, this fairytail of many weeks/months of dating before sexy time. It just isn’t how it actually works in the real world anymore. People are making out and rubbing bits together within the first few days/week or they’re moving on.
The intimacy and romance is built alongside the physicality. If it exists.
There’s an unwritten rule about not being too clingy during that time, and if the two people fall for each other then they do, but also you have to not be too clingy too quickly or else it becomes massively unattractive. This is a major hurdle for incels because of course they’re massively insecure and that same insecurity causes them to massively overthink everything and become far too emotionally attached too quickly to the point that it makes the other person uncomfortable how they’re being.
Incidentally, one of the veins of discourse in the incel community is basically doing conversion therapy to become gay because they believe that it’s way easier on average for a dude to get laid if he’s gay. I’ve never seen someone report that the converted themselves, though.
I don’t think it’s easier to get laid if you’re gay. I think it’s easier to get laid if you’re into kink and that community happens to almost entirely crossover with kink due to comfort with exploration.
Not to keep playing reverse “Spot the Contradiction,” but you need to remember that these are people who generally have never had a girlfriend. Period. They might get a first date or two and then get ghosted. In the context of a first date, do you think that for a het woman, a man more interested in emotionality than sex is somehow a red flag?
No.
Like yeah, if he’s trauma dumping to you while you’re at the diner and you don’t even really know him, that’s probably not gonna fly
This is practically all of them. They will all tell you just how much life has it out for them with practically no prompting, and it’s deeply offputting to most people.
but if anything I would think emotionality that is somewhat in check and deprioritizing sex would be considered substantial positives for these guys as candidates
It would be, if they could get their incredible insecurity in check or at least successfully hide it for long enough for someone to see the real person they are.
However, one of the problems with insecurity is that it controls you in a way that causes you to act differently. It holds you back, it makes you not say things, or say things you shouldn’t, it causes acting out, etc etc. If you can remove insecurity from the situation you end up with a completely different person, one that is attractive assuming they don’t say some women-hating bullshit.
this fairytail of many weeks/months of dating before sexy time. It just isn’t how it actually works in the real world anymore. People are making out and rubbing bits together within the first few days/week or they’re moving on.
News to demis. Just because our fairy nature gives us powers of invisibility we don’t entirely control, doesn’t mean we don’t have a presence in your real world!
and it’s getting more difficult as I get older
like how old? I guess it’s never easier than like early 20’s
Yeah, it’s easy in high school and even easier as an undergrad, but there’s a precipitous drop immediately after that, at least for me (though I have to imagine it applies to many other people).
Tbf, that sounds like a kink community with some problems.
Too many bottoms
Removed by mod
Now why do I get the sense that outbursts like this are the exact reason why “The Will to Change” actually needs to be read by the whole forum
Over reacting. There is no possible way to solve a problem without talking about what the causes of it are.
I also don’t agree with you generalising incels as simply all being neurodiverse people, they’re not, some might be but the majority? I don’t think so. It also means any criticism of incels is ableism and frankly I entirely disagree.
If they’re gonna sit there and annoy the shit out of me, i’m gonna annoy the shit out of them back. I’m in this for retaliation against the right, consequences be damned.
I still remember when incel referred exclusively to the pro-SA demons on 8chan and a short list of other forums
Listen man i gotta hate somethin in order to live
Billionaires are right there.
Yeah i do already
